New crystalyte motor - G series

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

bitches pls, don't go all puritan over the sight of a few twisted nipples.
where was all the oot-rage over the spokes on the hagen-dasen wheel???

oh noooo....those spokes!!!
mine eyes, aaagh............

cph_wheel006.jpg (41.88 KiB) Viewed 1106 times

also as has been pointed out about bionx having to unlace the wheel to open er up, it's all been seen b4.
expect only more closed box proprietary crap down the road for the manufacturers benefit should ebikes go mainstream & some competition starts to show up.
an in situ design deliberately making it difficult to open not only lowers material & assembly costs but i'm sur they would also like to shut out the overclockers from undercutting their product line.

But, i still want to know... Geared ? or DD ?

a geared hub would be a first for xlyte wouldn't it?
i guess it's confirmed then but based on the look & size it just felt like a dd to me.
i think xlyte might positioning this for an expected onslaught of small lightweight hubbies such as falco which should be out by the new year hopefully maybe possibly this time fer sur.

[Kurt]

Thanks John, Good to see your comments with a bit more context. That said, the price tag scared me off a little as well, so it wasn't just people's comments on here.

Just to derail the thread a little, what hub motor would you recommend sub 5kg, can hide behind a 7 gear cassette, and will accommodate a 7 gear cassette in a 135mm dropout? Ideally it would be 200W continuous, with the option to burst to 350/400W for up to 30 seconds. Budget would be sub $300, but if it was exceptional (Say, sub 4kg, or able to do 350w continuous) I could go a little higher.

I don't see why you wouldn't just go for something like the Bafang BPM motor its only 3.9KG is about 1/2 the price. Its Free wheeling and can be ordered with smaller diameter spoke holes. Over all finish looks a lot better to. Apparently they are working on a splined cassette style free-wheel version to that will fit 8 speed free-wheels that I am sure will be for sale soon.

I have been running mine at 2500w burst and a good 1000w most of the time with no issue.
3.99kg


2011 splined cassette for 8 speed




Kurt

[amberwolf]

more info?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34275

[RoughRider]

honestly tho.. like it has been said above.. 99% of owners will never need/want to open up a motor anways.. we are the 1% lmao...

Same thing with BionX and A2B motors, they are press fit and require removing spokes to open.. not really a problem in real " dealer class power ebike kits " ..

This is what the motor is made for...not for the 1% DIY...
It is made for big customers, that buy 500motors per order...
The motor is not meant to be opened or unlaced...by DIY

I like the design...the motor doesnt look like every other hub motor from China...it has a very special look...
You will recognize the motor from far away by the first second you look at it...

The spokes will be fine...there are similar spokes on off-road bikes...so...dont worry about them...

And if you dont like the crapy spokes from China...you can by some straight quality spokes and bend them to the ride shape...nothing to it...you are a DIY-guy...

[miro13car]

Disagree.
the point is plain and simple:
if average bike shop cannot provide spokes for this hub so it is very, very bad.
Nobody says here about need to re-lace wheel in DIY project,
you forgot that spokes BREAK on ebikes,
so how you replace if spokes no available.
I disagree about bending spokes, absolutely it is not to be bent.

[RoughRider]

i dont see the problem to buy and bent a straight spoke to the right angle by yourself...

at the end you are a DIY-guy...if you can open hub motors, repair the halls and make thicker phase-wires...your should be able to bent a spoke to the right angle

[Bikes2volt]

Did anyone ride the G-rearwheel motor yet? We are trying to test the first one, but find it difficult to mount the cassette. It look like some small parts are missing or we recieved the wrong combination of freehub, spacers, nuts and cassette-lockring. Both adjusting the freehub bearings and fixating the lockring seems impossible.

[MadRhino]

This motor had not hit the market yet, so it is not documented here. Please post some pics of what you've got, and someone might be able to help you with the free hub assembly, or tell you what is missing.

[boppinbob]

I will repeat what I said about the "sparrow" motor....

Apparantly Crystallite has offered to supply the first 100 buyers of this motor with a big tube of lube, a vial of muscle relaxant, and the Village Peoples greatest hits....

Not that there is anything wrong with it, "some of my best friends ride the G series"

Hahahaha That quote needs to go into the ES Quotable Quotes thread.

[Bikes2volt]

As you can see



there is not enough space between the lockring and the nut for the Shimano tool. Also/because the top nut is too big.



After some thinking, trying and testing with some spacers under and on top of the freehub in order to 1. lift the freehub from the motor and 2. lift the two nuts that block the freehub - so I can put the tools (17 and 19) on them. It looked quite OK, but did not give the expected result so I went back to the original configuration and did not lock the cassette's top nut.

[Bikes2volt]

Still working on it....

[Racer_X]

That definitely looks stealth

[TheWizard]

I got one of these hubs bare to complete a sh*ts-n-giggles spare parts build. the axle is threaded with two different, but equally infuriating and inappropriate pitches, so DONT LOSE THE OEM NUTS
left side: 9/16-20 RH (only used for bicycle pedal axles & cranks!)
right/drive-side: 7/16-28 (only used to mount electric knobs to control panels!)
You cannot find suitable steel replacement hardware for those <b>ANYWHERE</b>. I'm hand-tapping a left-side nut (lost before shipping) as soon as my hex-shaped steel barstock comes in, using a Park Tool crank tap I borrowed and a 33/64 reamer to pilot the hole.

As for the (non)clearance of the cassette tool, there must have been some willful suspension of disbelief at the factory or a switcheroo of specs when it came time to turn the custom nuts to match the botched up axles...whatever the case it means these hubs can't even be assembled into wheels as-is!

I had to make 2 tweaks:
I drilled out the hole of my Park cassette tool to 7/16". It's a solid axle, so you need a tool that has a hole in the middle instead of a guide rod that only works with quick release axles.
I took off the locknut with a box wrench, and ground off the flats until it was round and matching the "washer" profile on the faces of the nut. Then I put two flats on it with a file on opposing sides, so that it looks like the "cone" nut that sits in the freehub carrier.

with those changes, you can slip a the lockring tool over the axle and tighten it down to spec (snug, but not hard)

I hope the build is worth it, what a b*&%h!

[whatever]

development of the 4xx and 5xx series with assist from power assist forum and esforum members over many years,
many sellers used as guinea pigs by crystalyte, then they stop making them and go in another direction.......
also overpriced compared to other chinese retailers.......many years also spent getting to grips with issues of the 4 and 5 series.....why even go with crystalyte?

[John in CR]

why even go with crystalyte?

Imagine how a new manufacturer would get treated around here if even half of the QC issues arose.

[Ypedal]

because clyte would and will deal with small fries like me who only want 50 motors at a time.. and that's a batch of 2 motors of each winding type.. 25 diff motors in a shipment..

9C wont even reply to your emails at those volumes..

and that's .. that.

[spinningmagnets]

I'm now curious about these for a mid-drive. They appear to be similar in size to the old Crystalyte 408, though slightly narrower. The "Stoke-Monkey" has had some success using what I'm told is a 407. Maybe not a bad idea if I think about it as though its an outrunner that is roughly a 177mm diameter by 59mm thick. The Crystalyte website says there are two windings. At 36V you can get 277 RPMs unloaded, and 355 RPMs unloaded. Those numbers match their claim of 30 k/h and 40 k/h in a 26-inch wheel when loaded (18-MPH / 24-MPH). Sounds like the motor unloaded kV's are 7.7 and 9.8 (if I did the math right)

The splined freehub rear wheel might accept two side-by-side splined ENOs, for a right-side series-drive, similar to the Hanebrink.

The front hub is very narrow, and the left-side disc brake flange could accept a fixed cog that might drive a jackshaft with a freewheel to drive the rear wheel disc brake flange (cog and FW both on left side)? Or, a right-side freewheel on the jackshaft to drive the BB? I also believe a Nexus trike 3-speed IGH can be "back-driven" by flipping it over and using it as a jackshaft (the motor spins the shell-sprocket, and the left-side freewheel connects the chain to the rear wheel disc brake flange).

Add air-cooling (or oil-cooling) plus the motor using at least 3 speeds, and its small size might not be such a horrible thing. Urbancommuterstore is charging over $1000 for a great mid-drive product, but my DIY longtail has lots of room for a small hub and a jackshaft (for a LOT less). The G-series benefit being it would be quieter than a cell_man geared hub (the other mid-drive option?)

[Lebowski]

my DIY longtail has lots of room for a small hub and a jackshaft (for a LOT less). The G-series benefit being it would be quieter than a cell_man geared hub (the other mid-drive option?)

I'm also trying to choose between a G-series and a MAC for a mid-drive, any opinions guys ?

[justin_le]

Just to add a bit more tech details to this thread. We got both a sample front and rear 'G' motor at the beginning of this year and shared most of the sentiments that others have expressed here. It's neat and has some original design elements, which is a little unusual out of china. It's good to see some smaller size drive hub motor options, cassette freehub got the rear is awesome, but overall the impracticality requiring a custom bent spoke and the generally low power and high price tipped the scales against us stocking it.

The front model weights 3.8kg, so light but not a featherweight like the similar power geared Tonxin or "cute" motors:

Weight.jpg (37.82 KiB) Viewed 604 times

The clearance between the disk boss and side plate is a full 18mm, which means it will fit most mechanical and hydraulic disk calipers just fine. This is an important criteria for overall compatibity with modern bicycles.

Disk Clearance.jpg (33.87 KiB) Viewed 604 times

The hub casing is press fit over the steel magnet ring, but it came apart with a standard gear puller without issue, though we had to use a disk rotor mounted on the side plate to give something for the puller jaws to pull against, as the motor doesn't have the normal spoke flanges that are typically employed:

Opened.jpg (54.69 KiB) Viewed 604 times

Internally, this motor has a 154mm magnet ring ID, a total of 20 magnet pole pairs, and a 36 tooth stator. That is identical to the Nine Continent FH154 motor spec, which used to be common before the larger 205mm motors took over.

ID.jpg (32.73 KiB) Viewed 604 times

However, where it differs is in the ring thickness.This 'G' series motor is just 25mm wide:

Magnet Width.jpg (29.94 KiB) Viewed 604 times

While the sample FH/RH154 hubs we got from 9C had a 40mm wide stator and magnet:

FH154 Rotor.jpg (37.14 KiB) Viewed 604 times

So we would expect the Crystalyte 'G' motors to be about 38% less powerful than the 9C variant of the same diameter.

[justin_le]

So we would expect the Crystalyte 'G' motors to be about 38% less powerful than the 9C variant of the same diameter.

And the Dyno Tests basically confirmed that. Crysatlyte has two winding options listed on their site, a 40kph and 30kph model, and we were sent the 30kph variant which was marked 4x16, so a 4 parallel 16 turn wind.

At 36V, it barely reached 300 watts of peak output power. The measured values are shown with markers, while the line shows the theoretical curves from the model that would be drawn by the simulator:

G Dyno Test at 36V.jpg (44.05 KiB) Viewed 599 times

At 48V, the output power maxed out at more like 500 watts, though at pretty low (55-60%) efficiency.

The other thing we looked at is the cogging torque, which is often a concern for people with direct drive hubs and which you'd expect to be really low for a small motor like this. However, it actually wasn't anything special, the static cogging torque was over 0.5 Nm and about 0.6 to 0.7 N-m at normal cruising speeds. This is a little bit less but pretty similar on the whole to the larger 400 series crystalyte motors.

No Load Torques.jpg (24.21 KiB) Viewed 599 times

In any case, for those who wanted to play with it I put the motor up on our simulator, http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator, listed as the "Clyte G2530". You'll notice that the G2440 option is modeled too. This was done just extrapolating the info from Crystalyte's website in conjunction with our test results on the G2430 hub but without an actual dyno test, and so might not be totally accurate.

I'd be curious to hear of other people's firsthand experience with this motor. Anyone really loving it?

-Justin

[liveforphysics]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

[amigafan2003]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

I'd be interested in that too - I've been pushing my Tongxin @ 63v/11amps/650watts peak for over 2000miles now - 25mph top speed in 700cc wheel.

It's just mildly warm when I get home from my 25min commute. Anything over 650 watts from the controller and controlling the clutch slip is difficult.

[Hyena]

Nice review Justin, and thanks for the photos inside. Interesting to see they have a fairly solid stator and a large ID bearing on one side. This would be great for fitting upgraded phase wiring through, if only it was worth the effort given the poor performance to start with. Those features if shared with the H35s would be nice for hot rodding.
For those who want the shortened version based on what we already knew and now with Justin's latest and comprehensive findings:
Crystalyte G series, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!

I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper.

haha talk about from one extreme to the other!

[amberwolf]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

You sure that's not missing a few trailing zeros?

Really, though, I would like to see the Tongxin in there, too, as it mght help me model what I will be able to do with it as middrive on the Nishik-E.

[docnjoj]

I would actually like to see the roller gear motor being availible to buy. The idea of a truly quiet gear motor that is light weight is really appealing to me. Tongxin is roller geared, right?

otherDoc