New crystalyte motor - G series

[Ypedal]

because clyte would and will deal with small fries like me who only want 50 motors at a time.. and that's a batch of 2 motors of each winding type.. 25 diff motors in a shipment..

9C wont even reply to your emails at those volumes..

and that's .. that.

[spinningmagnets]

I'm now curious about these for a mid-drive. They appear to be similar in size to the old Crystalyte 408, though slightly narrower. The "Stoke-Monkey" has had some success using what I'm told is a 407. Maybe not a bad idea if I think about it as though its an outrunner that is roughly a 177mm diameter by 59mm thick. The Crystalyte website says there are two windings. At 36V you can get 277 RPMs unloaded, and 355 RPMs unloaded. Those numbers match their claim of 30 k/h and 40 k/h in a 26-inch wheel when loaded (18-MPH / 24-MPH). Sounds like the motor unloaded kV's are 7.7 and 9.8 (if I did the math right)

The splined freehub rear wheel might accept two side-by-side splined ENOs, for a right-side series-drive, similar to the Hanebrink.

The front hub is very narrow, and the left-side disc brake flange could accept a fixed cog that might drive a jackshaft with a freewheel to drive the rear wheel disc brake flange (cog and FW both on left side)? Or, a right-side freewheel on the jackshaft to drive the BB? I also believe a Nexus trike 3-speed IGH can be "back-driven" by flipping it over and using it as a jackshaft (the motor spins the shell-sprocket, and the left-side freewheel connects the chain to the rear wheel disc brake flange).

Add air-cooling (or oil-cooling) plus the motor using at least 3 speeds, and its small size might not be such a horrible thing. Urbancommuterstore is charging over $1000 for a great mid-drive product, but my DIY longtail has lots of room for a small hub and a jackshaft (for a LOT less). The G-series benefit being it would be quieter than a cell_man geared hub (the other mid-drive option?)

[Lebowski]

my DIY longtail has lots of room for a small hub and a jackshaft (for a LOT less). The G-series benefit being it would be quieter than a cell_man geared hub (the other mid-drive option?)

I'm also trying to choose between a G-series and a MAC for a mid-drive, any opinions guys ?

[justin_le]

Just to add a bit more tech details to this thread. We got both a sample front and rear 'G' motor at the beginning of this year and shared most of the sentiments that others have expressed here. It's neat and has some original design elements, which is a little unusual out of china. It's good to see some smaller size drive hub motor options, cassette freehub got the rear is awesome, but overall the impracticality requiring a custom bent spoke and the generally low power and high price tipped the scales against us stocking it.

The front model weights 3.8kg, so light but not a featherweight like the similar power geared Tonxin or "cute" motors:

Weight.jpg (37.82 KiB) Viewed 612 times

The clearance between the disk boss and side plate is a full 18mm, which means it will fit most mechanical and hydraulic disk calipers just fine. This is an important criteria for overall compatibity with modern bicycles.

Disk Clearance.jpg (33.87 KiB) Viewed 612 times

The hub casing is press fit over the steel magnet ring, but it came apart with a standard gear puller without issue, though we had to use a disk rotor mounted on the side plate to give something for the puller jaws to pull against, as the motor doesn't have the normal spoke flanges that are typically employed:

Opened.jpg (54.69 KiB) Viewed 612 times

Internally, this motor has a 154mm magnet ring ID, a total of 20 magnet pole pairs, and a 36 tooth stator. That is identical to the Nine Continent FH154 motor spec, which used to be common before the larger 205mm motors took over.

ID.jpg (32.73 KiB) Viewed 612 times

However, where it differs is in the ring thickness.This 'G' series motor is just 25mm wide:

Magnet Width.jpg (29.94 KiB) Viewed 612 times

While the sample FH/RH154 hubs we got from 9C had a 40mm wide stator and magnet:

FH154 Rotor.jpg (37.14 KiB) Viewed 612 times

So we would expect the Crystalyte 'G' motors to be about 38% less powerful than the 9C variant of the same diameter.

[justin_le]

So we would expect the Crystalyte 'G' motors to be about 38% less powerful than the 9C variant of the same diameter.

And the Dyno Tests basically confirmed that. Crysatlyte has two winding options listed on their site, a 40kph and 30kph model, and we were sent the 30kph variant which was marked 4x16, so a 4 parallel 16 turn wind.

At 36V, it barely reached 300 watts of peak output power. The measured values are shown with markers, while the line shows the theoretical curves from the model that would be drawn by the simulator:

G Dyno Test at 36V.jpg (44.05 KiB) Viewed 607 times

At 48V, the output power maxed out at more like 500 watts, though at pretty low (55-60%) efficiency.

The other thing we looked at is the cogging torque, which is often a concern for people with direct drive hubs and which you'd expect to be really low for a small motor like this. However, it actually wasn't anything special, the static cogging torque was over 0.5 Nm and about 0.6 to 0.7 N-m at normal cruising speeds. This is a little bit less but pretty similar on the whole to the larger 400 series crystalyte motors.

No Load Torques.jpg (24.21 KiB) Viewed 607 times

In any case, for those who wanted to play with it I put the motor up on our simulator, http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator, listed as the "Clyte G2530". You'll notice that the G2440 option is modeled too. This was done just extrapolating the info from Crystalyte's website in conjunction with our test results on the G2430 hub but without an actual dyno test, and so might not be totally accurate.

I'd be curious to hear of other people's firsthand experience with this motor. Anyone really loving it?

-Justin

[liveforphysics]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

[amigafan2003]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

I'd be interested in that too - I've been pushing my Tongxin @ 63v/11amps/650watts peak for over 2000miles now - 25mph top speed in 700cc wheel.

It's just mildly warm when I get home from my 25min commute. Anything over 650 watts from the controller and controlling the clutch slip is difficult.

[Hyena]

Nice review Justin, and thanks for the photos inside. Interesting to see they have a fairly solid stator and a large ID bearing on one side. This would be great for fitting upgraded phase wiring through, if only it was worth the effort given the poor performance to start with. Those features if shared with the H35s would be nice for hot rodding.
For those who want the shortened version based on what we already knew and now with Justin's latest and comprehensive findings:
Crystalyte G series, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!

I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper.

haha talk about from one extreme to the other!

[amberwolf]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

You sure that's not missing a few trailing zeros?

Really, though, I would like to see the Tongxin in there, too, as it mght help me model what I will be able to do with it as middrive on the Nishik-E.

[docnjoj]

I would actually like to see the roller gear motor being availible to buy. The idea of a truly quiet gear motor that is light weight is really appealing to me. Tongxin is roller geared, right?

otherDoc

[amigafan2003]

I would actually like to see the roller gear motor being availible to buy. The idea of a truly quiet gear motor that is light weight is really appealing to me. Tongxin is roller geared, right?

otherDoc

Yup - whisper quiet and great freewheeling too.

I'm happy with mine and seems to be taking the abuse quite well - I just make sure I don't use it from a stand still and I'm easy on the throttle until up to speed.

It's deffinately an assist motor, not a throttle only motor though.

[grindz145]

The thing looks really good, and the cassette is awesome.

Otherwise this is not tiny enough for the pedal-assist and not tough enough for hackers.

But man, it looks like some type of futuristic robot hub motor.

[justin_le]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

Luke, I was presuming that your tongue was firmly in cheek here. But indeed, post a picture here of yourself lycra clad on a skinny tire road bicycle and I will bend over to put anything up on the simulator for you!

-Justin

[voicecoils]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

Luke, I was presuming that your tongue was firmly in cheek here. But indeed, post a picture here of yourself lycra clad on a skinny tire road bicycle and I will bend over to put anything up on the simulator for you!

-Justin

Ooh, I have a strong feeling you'll actually get the lycra photo.

IIRC, Luke's made mention of owning a weightweenie road bike in the past.

[Ypedal]

*wipes coffee spray from monitor....

[ohzee]

wow yea that's a great way to start my morning thanks for the laugh and nice mental picture

[neptronix]

*wipes coffee spray from monitor....

my thoughts exactly..

[Farfle]

Wait, luke, LFP luke. THE luke. On a 200w skinnybike? I would NOT have called that one.

[liveforphysics]

Any chance of throwing the Tongxin/Cute motor into the simulator? I'm riding a light weight road bicycle now that could use a feather weight front hub helper. The lightest quiet hub that can do just 200w of output for 10minutes is what I'm looking for.

Luke, I was presuming that your tongue was firmly in cheek here. But indeed, post a picture here of yourself lycra clad on a skinny tire road bicycle and I will bend over to put anything up on the simulator for you!

-Justin

I don't own any lycra to wear for the picture, but just for you my friend, I will pick some up, squeeze into it, and take the photo for you.

I actually enjoy the bike a lot. It's pretty amazing how well it works. I would say 1/5th the pedal effort of deathbike to cover the same distance unpowered. The only deficiency with the bike is the small gas tank capacity, clogged air filter, and tiny fuel-line diameter of the human engine driving the cranks. lol I figure a 200w hub will double what I'm able to contribute for any moderate amount of time.

It's just a couple orders of magnitude off the power output of my other bicycle. Still fun!

[joss76]

just à little question , have you an idea why I don't find the motor on the crystalyte website ? it's will stop ?

[amberwolf]

Have you asked Crystalyte? They'd be the only ones that could tell you, since it's their site.

[N!co]

http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/home.php?cat=307

[The Mighty Volt]

http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/home.php?cat=307

€250 before postage. Meh. And their shitty 3 weeks of faffing about too before they send it.

[cwah]

Just wondering if a small DD motor makes any sense?

I mean, it's as heavy as a BPM. So if you get a BPM or a Mac you'll be more efficient and have much better acceleration.

If you want to go lightweight, you'll want to have a small geared motor such as a cute100 which would almost be half its weight...

The only advantages of this motor would be the silence, regen and maybe durability? But again, if you want a tough one, just get a BPM or a Mac....

So, why do you get this motor?

[justin_le]

I don't own any lycra to wear for the picture, but just for you my friend, I will pick some up, squeeze into it, and take the photo for you.

Hey Luke, OK so it's gonna be time for you to own up!

Post us your photo and I'll characterize and dyno test these Tongxin hub motors in various windings and put them up on the simulator to the benefit of aspiring weight weenies everywhere:

Tongxin Box.jpg (51.34 KiB) Viewed 398 times