CroBorg Commuter

[Alan B]

The Cycle Analyst V3beta arrived! I will test it on the MTB.

Had a great day yesterday with Stevil. We installed the DUAL 4 pot Gatorbrakes on the forks with 160mm discs. I didn't even know that dual mirrored 4 pots were made, but there they are! I forgot to take pics, but the discs are pretty rad with sawtooth edges.

I got to test ride Stevil's 'Borg and wow does it feel great! Can't wait to get mine done!

[Alan B]

I have been getting a few questions on my Borg project, so I thought a recap might be in order.

I started this thread on Christmas Day about four months ago. My hardtail mountain bike was coming along nicely, but I wanted more. Better suspension. Better tires. More torque. The HT3525 I had just purchased was still in the box and I was already realizing it wasn't enough. On the Marin group trip I came very close to smoking my 9C 2810. It was really hot for hours, and didn't really have the torque even at 72V to make the climb well. On the work commute the rough roads and gravel were a bit more exciting and distracting than I like. It works, but I wanted more.

So I started looking at full suspension bikes. Downhill bikes are really nice, and expensive, and not suited for batteries, and not really the right suspension for street riding, or carrying loads. I'd like to have one for dirt, but that is a big project for another day.

I wanted a comfortable ebike with plenty of power for hills, plenty of capacity for longer rides, and lots of rubber to soak up the gravel, pavement, and thorns without excitement.

The Cromotor looked like the deal, and there was one available. I checked with Accountant to see when Greyborg frames would be available, and they had one left. I ordered them. I knew they were arranging a US dealer which would be a better way to go, but would not be ready for awhile. I also knew this was a significant project, and I have many other projects, so this was going to take a while. I have the other ebike so that's okay.

Pretty much every turn in this project has been delayed. I didn't expect anything else, so all is fine. The shipment took awhile. Some parts were missing (probably removed during shipment), so another shipment (great service from Accountant!). There was some shipping damage, so add some repairs. There are a lot of components on a bike, and the Greyborg I'm building is not using the most available stuff. Dual front discs are hard to come by. Stevil found some for me, THANKS! Four pot Gatorbrakes for Tadpole Trikes. Chainrings and crank arms for the ATS Schlumpf two speed crankset. Thanks to Accountant for the crank arms and Ebay for the 34T 110 BCD Chainring.

I wasn't looking for a racing machine, though Stevil has shown that it can be one, and Zombiess has shown that the Cromotor is racing capable as well. I'm really looking for what Hal was building - a really competent commuter. This Greyborg Warp can be both, apparently.

When I ordered the 'Borg I'm not sure I had a fully developed wheel plan, but the 17" Moped wheels appealed to me. I had a Motobecane Mobylette moped and put thousands of commute miles on it going to college. In years of use it had maybe one or two flats. I don't think I ever replaced a tire. It was a killer to pedal if you ran out of gas, and it was a dog going up the hill at work at 9 mph and pissing all the cars off. The brakes were almost good enough to stop me going back down that hill. But you had to anticipate the light or you might have to dig in your heels to get stopped. The suspension was better than nothing. The Greyborg Warp with Cromotor will so outperform the Moped in every way except range and recharge time.

So 17" Moped wheels with 2.5" tires are about 23.5" OD so comparable to 24" bike tires, pretty much. But instead of a few ounces of rubber you have over 4 pounds of 70 MPH DOT rated rubber. Serious stuff. I was going to use 2.5" Gazelles on both ends as recommended by JRH, but I liked the 3" that Stevil had on his rear tire which fits fine in the Borg frame, so I'm going to try that (2.5 front, 3.0 rear). More rubber! Depending on the battery complement this bike will be nearly 100 pounds, much like the Motobecane Mobylette moped was for weight.

Lacing the Cromotor into a rim is a challenge because it has about 3.8mm holes which is a bit large for 12 gauge spokes. 11 gauge might fit but those won't fit the moped rims. I suppose they are sized for motorcycle rims. So you can drill new spoke holes, or use washers. We'll try washers first.

On the front hub you have the opposite problem. This hub is made for dual discs but probably 13 gauge spokes. So it will have to be drilled out slightly to fit the 12 gauge spokes that the rim wants.

I was looking at Kiwi's beautiful Borg torque plate, but I was concerned that it might be a bit thin for this double-torque motor. Then I find out that the Cromotor has 16mm axles flatted to 10mm so they won't fit the Kiwi plate, and the axles are not really long enough to fit thick torque plates, and that no torque plates are needed if the Cromotor is seated fully forward in the horizontal Cromoly Steel Borg swingarm dropouts. So I bought half-link chain and plan to seat it fully forward. Stevil used a floating chainring (like Luke does) to provide the fine adjustment so the motor can be fully forward, so I can do that too if needed.

I was going to have Magudaman (who is also local here) make some custom torque plates, but there isn't room for them. I was also going to use the new alloy rims that JRH is having made, but they are way late and Stevil made me an offer I could not refuse. He's just over an hour from me so that avoids shipping.

The rear brake mount that Accountant supplies has a 12mm hole to go on the axle, so I'm not sure what to do there. Drilling it out to 16mm won't leave much material. I may need to have something fabricated. Perhaps Accountant has something for it now that the Cromotors are going to all have the 16mm axles? Didn't Luke say the rear brake was optional? Sheldon Brown doesn't seem to think they are needed much (see his encyclopedic bike website in the braking section). I will do a rear brake, though, and Regen. Soon.

Philistine had the Lyen 24 FET controller in his Borg, and I decided to follow that track. The 18 FET is undoubtedly adequate, but for solid reliability I wanted to go with the 24. I had Lyen build me one. Mine seems just a little to be too long to fit in my frame, but I'm going to review that again before I cut it shorter. Either way we'll get that in. But if you want an easier project choose a smaller controller.

I want to be able to pedal, both to get some exercise, and to be able to go on bike paths. Derailleurs are a problem, and the Borg isn't really set up for them, so I chose the ATS Schlumpf two speed planetary drive crankset (with excellent pricing from Accountant). With the 34 tooth chainring and the 16 tooth single speed freewheel I will get about 12mph in low gear, and about 20mph in high. A larger chainring could be used by leaving the plastic off the chainring side, perhaps fabricate a flat panel to go there.

For forks I have the Volcano set up for dual discs from Accountant. Nice pricing and should be adequate for commuting. Don't need too much travel, this isn't a downhill machine and I don't plan to jump it.

Stevil is helping me out with FSA Pig DH Pro headset and Ritchie adjustable stem. (Thanks!)

I took Oatnet's suggestion of a Cloud9 seat, and he also suggested adjustable stems. I have a seatpost but need to do some sanding to get it to fit in the tight seat tube.

I decided to go with the White Industries freewheel but find that it doesn't fit on the long motor threads as far down as it should (someone warned me about that), but I learned that it is machinable stainless so I can fix that. But I ordered a Dicta (which has threads all the way through) to start with, then I'll decide later to fit the White or not.

In the midst of my Borg build I was reading about the Mega Enduro ride that Lyen has chronicled, and its requirement for less than 20 watt hours per mile. That, and the long time in the saddle convinced me that I needed to try a recumbent for the occasional longer touring ride. I dialed up Craig's list and there was a bikeE just a few miles away, inexpensive, in good condition and barely used. I ignored it for nearly a week and then zoomed over there before someone else scooped it up. I put a BMC on it from Ilia at ebikessf. It is amazing but in no way replaces the Borg. It is light and efficient and wonderfully comfortable (aside from potholes), but for daily driving on rough and steep roads and competing with cars the Borg is preferred. I'll have them both.

So when is the Borg going to be on the road? Soon I'll have wheels, headset, stem, and some assembly to do. Still need to get the ATS Schlumpf installed, sort out axle spacers and chainline, figure out the rear brake (or temporarily skip it), mount some cover panels, and do the wiring.

AND the batteries. Stevil has a system for making up packs on the fly using the hardcase Turnigy bricks, he makes up a pack for what he needs and straps it in the Borg. Very clever and lightweight. I like the modularity.

I tend to think more in terms of a mounted pack and onboard charger that is more than adequate for the daily commute, and then a longrange secondary pack that is added when needed. Methods HVCLVC boards. The Cycle Analyst V3beta is in hand. But the battery pack is still theory. I'll probably start with 15S 8AH Zippy that I have sitting around, and then get some Turnigy 6S bricks and start aggregating a full set.

I have been looking at the ebikes.ca simulator. Thanks to Justin and zombiess for putting the Cromotor's measured data in there (NoName5004). It may not be perfectly accurate, but it is really useful to get some idea of how things are going to work.

I have the 2810 on 18S lipo at LVC of 3.6V on a 26" mountain bike (like my setup) to compare with the "CroBorg" (coined a new term there?). (this is done by selecting a 2807 and scaling the values since the 2810 is not there). This compared to the NoName5004 (which is model data based on some measured values from a Cromotor).

So I'm looking at 12/24S or 18S. Being an engineer I don't want to run my 100V 4110 FETs at 24S all the time. There's just not enough margin. So I thought about using a 12S/24S switching setup, then it would spend little time at 24S. But do I need 50 mph? That's just going to be trouble in so many ways. Sorry Luke.

So back to 18S. My original plan. How does that look? 2KW into the 9C, 4KW into the NoName5004, so very conservative. At Low Voltage Cutoff (3.6V) ( so it will be better than this ) the mountain bike with 9C 2810 gets 25 mph. That's about right, I see about 28-30 hot off the charger. What about the NoName5004 in 24" tires? Well it matches the 9C at 65% throttle. The efficiency of the NoName5004 is just slightly better than the 9C. Using better materials does make a difference. It rocks

So what about the rest of the throttle? The NoName5004 at 18S in 24" wheeled mountain bike makes 37 mph at LVC. Hot off the charger will break 40, especially in a tuck. On a recumbent with a 26" wheel, wow, look out 50. But I'm not going there now.

Thrust off the line is exactly double at 72.5 vs 145 pounds. The torque of the NoName5004 is just less than double the 9C at these power levels, but the smaller moped wheel makes the difference.

You can push both the 9C and the Cromotor a lot harder than this. These are efficient, conservative commuter power levels. I'm quite happy with 2KW in my 9C for most things, and doubling that should be really, really excellent.

So I'm looking for a good 170mm rear shock for the Borg, let me know if you have any leads!

Thanks to ES, Fetchter, Justin, Luke, Stevil, JRH, Oatnet, dogman, zombiess, methods, green machine, HAL, Accountant, icecube57, Philistine, amberwolf, Ilia, Lyen, grindz145, Kingfish, gcindc, markobetti (an incomplete list in no particular order) and all the other folks who have helped to make this happen!

[zombiess]

I have been looking at the ebikes.ca simulator. Thanks to Justin and zombiess for putting the Cromotor's measured data in there (NoName5004). It may not be perfectly accurate, but it is really useful to get some idea of how things are going to work.

I'm not sure if Justin has gotten around to updating the simulator yet. The motor specs he put in there gave it overly optimistic performance. He and I talked by PM and I supplied him with the necessary data to update it and make it much more accurate, but last I heard from him he hasn't had the time. SWBluto's simulator has done good for me so far and is how I simulated the different scenarios I posted. I have a link to my esim file and also his simulator if you want to give it a shot. I'll try to check the bikes.ca sim tomorrow to see if Justin updated the data yet.

[Philistine]

Re the 24 Fet controller in the Gborg frame, I should have noted to you Alan how tight the fit was. It really is a tight squeeze, but mine does fit without any rubbing etc.., but there is almost no tolerance, and I just presumed all 24 Fets were the same size. You can see in the photo below how tight it is, the bit on the left (outside the frame of the shot) is right against the end with no room to move, and you can see at the end in the photo (on the bottom right as you look at the photo) the end is right up against the frame. The tolerance is so tight it might be that your Gborg frame is slightly smaller in that part, it would only have to be a few mm to be too tight I guess.

I also built my battery boxes for the lipo about a mm too wide, so that the plastic canopy barely fits on and really stresses the bolt holes (some have cracked already). At some point I will glue tabs onto the canopy so I can get a few mm more clearance. (Apologies for the bad phone photo but you get the idea)

[Alan B]

Thanks for the updates, Philistine. With the curved tubes it is hard to say exactly how much interference there is with the controller, but it is not much. I'm going to spend more time fitting before cutting. Measure twice, cut once, etc.

On another note, I took a test ride yesterday of the Zero 2012 dual-sport. So now I've test ridden both Stevil's HT powered race-winning Greyborg and the Zero.

One interesting thing about the Zero. When I was first getting into ebikes and reading about the Zero the wife indicated she would rather I got an emotorcycle like the Zero than an ebike. Her reasoning was that the emoto could compete better with traffic and be safer. I had ridden a 500cc motorcycle for years without problems but haven't had a motorcycle for a long time.

It is interesting to compare them. For me there are two use cases they would both be used for. One is commuting to work, 13 miles, half 50mph limit highway along the lake and half windy hilly through the park 25mph limit. Actual speeds tend to run higher, of course. The other is dirt, camping, desert type uses which I won't cover here since I haven't tested either in that mode.

This was a brief test ride at work where the streets are narrow and pretty steep (7%) and the speed limit low. The seat on the dual-sport Zero is pretty high, but not a problem for me to straddle. It feels good, but on this short ride I won't be on it long enough to gauge its longterm comfort. The pegs are lightweight but effective which is the theme on the whole machine - they are working hard to keep the machine's weight down so they can save the weight budget for the battery. As you stand up the bike you feel the weight. Substantial, but less than my former motorcycle, a 500 cc water cooled shaft drive v-twin.

The kickstand is substantial but light, and easy to reach. It has a switch that interlocks the motor, so you can't power off until it is up, a nice safety feature. The throttle and front brake are on the right, on the left grip there is no clutch lever. The rear brake is on the right toe, the usual configuration for a USA motorcycle, aside from the missing clutch. The kill switch is on the right thumb, very similar to one I bought on ebay for my ebike. The dual mirrors are somewhat small and angular, probably designed to minimize air resistance while providing useful coverage. They seem to provide a useful view though not an expansive one. Having dual mirrors is nice, I've been doing single mirrors on my ebikes and I occasionally look for the missing right side mirror reflexively.

Flip the key on, the LCD speedo comes to life. Set the SPORT/ECO switch in ECO, make sure the kill switch is off. I'm starting on a gradient so holding the rear brake and rolling the throttle gently on, hear/feel some motor power pulses and release the brake, it rolls backward a bit. Quite a bit more throttle is required to get moving forward, and it takes off at a crawl. Incredible low speed low power control. You can easily ride at very low speed.

I did a loop around the hilly streets, gliding along and hitting the throttle progressively harder to see what it would do. No surprises. Good power, accelerates smoothly up hills. Competent. With my recent ebike experience I know they are managing this motor to keep it safe, cool and efficient, not pouring excess power into it. It feels like a good solid machine, not a thrill generating rocket. I flip the ECO switch to SPORT and test again. More powerful, still not a rocket. Feels good. Excellent brakes and throttle control. It is so easy to ride at near zero speed I almost forget to put my foot down at a stopsign. The extra high and forward weight of the battery makes this bike very easy to balance.

The turn signal control is spring loaded, so you can't leave it locked on, but the blinkers continue after it returns to center. I suspect it will time out, or you can cancel it by pushing it inward. Nice to have a turn signal, hand signalling on bikes creates some risks of its own. Turn signals on ebikes is a whole discussion of its own. But it feels good to have it, easy to use, and safe. I need to think about that more on my ebikes.

As I bring it back I need to turn it around on a gradient in the parking lot. The weight is noticeable, and the restricted steering angle. Much harder to maneuver around than an ebike which will turn much sharper plus you can always lift an end or even stand it on one wheel.

As I think back about the ride I realize I didn't notice the suspension. This is good, it works well, nothing to complain about.

So ebike vs Greyborg for my commute - how would that compare? The highway part of my commute is 50 mph with a wide shoulder, so with the emotorcycle (em/c) I could stick with traffic speed and save some time. Until it stacks up from too many cars. Then it is hard to stay legal and thread through it on the em/c. I see motorcycles threading into the bike lane, not supposed to do that, but they occasionally do.

On this part of the route the ebike has a pretty nice (most of the way) wide lane to itself. Not as clean, not always clear (disabled vehicles and clutter end up in the bike lane). So you can move along at bike speeds while the cars whiz by (watch them carefully though, some wander into the bike lane). Running high speeds in the bike lane is not a great idea, it just isn't that clutter-free. If the ebike will do 55 mph one could merge into the car lane, and that would be safer, but not really legal. My Greyborg is not being set up for 55, though it is possible to do that with over 100 volts.

When the cars stack up sliding alongside them in the bike lane at 20 mph is nice. It can save more time than was lost earlier if the stack is very deep. Then I peel off and turn into the hills, winding and climbing. The speed limit is 25, there are lots of corners, and the pavement is not good nor the roads wide. Here the Zero would be in its element, fun, perfect. Easily able to slide past the lycras which the cars have trouble passing. Possible to pass the slow cars safely. Fun. The ebike is not bad, a strong one like the Greyborg will keep speed equal to most cars, so the danger of getting passed would be minimized. Both Zero and Greyborg are excellent for this part of the trip, but Zero would be a bit faster.

Arriving at work the Zero would have to be parked outside. Finding a place with a power outlet to charge from would be a challenge. I might be able to get an extension cord or outlet positioned to use. Hard to predict. The Borg can be brought into my office. Out of the weather, away from prying eyes and fingers, and charging is no problem. Bringing a heavy ebike in up a few stairs and in the door is a bit of a challenge, but not hard. Make sure those lipos don't flare up indoors.

Taking the bikes places is also quite different. The em/c would require a trailer. I have one, but it is a hassle to load, unload and park with it. The bike rack is a lot easier to deal with. Hopefully my bike rack will be up to the Borg's weight, being a bit more than the usual bike.

It was a fun test ride, and I'd like to have a Zero. Someday perhaps I will get one. Thanks for the test ride, Dean of Pleasanton Mastercraft!

[Alan B]

Progress Report from Stevil:

[chroot]

Zero motorcycle ZF9 model is very nice e-motorcycle and I have thought about this one sometime in future I might purchase next year.

Thanks for details!

[Alan B]

24 FET controller Fits!

Earlier I reported that the Lyen 24 FET controller did not fit in my Borg frame. Tonite I got it out and tried again. It still did not fit. Best I could judge was an interference of about 1/4" between the frame tube and controller case.

So I removed the electronics, put the aluminum case in the chop saw, and cut off 3/8".

Now it fits.

Please don't try this at home unless you have an aluminum cutting rated blade in your saw. I used a 120 tooth carbide blade in a 12" chop saw. I cut slowly and held the case very still, better yet clamp it. Clean up all the aluminum chips from the box and reinstall the controller, taking care to torque the heatsink screws carefully and evenly. Make sure the heatsink compound is not disturbed or loaded with aluminum chips.

Now it Drops In!

[Alan B]

Anyone ordered a custom Yasusu shock for the Greyborg?

Hal recommended:

Yasusu BNCP401

Apparently they do custom setups, bushings, etc to suit your setup. But their web page is not clear on how to specify that.

[gensem]

Anyone ordered a custom Yasusu shock for the Greyborg?

Hal recommended:

Yasusu BNCP401

Apparently they do custom setups, bushings, etc to suit your setup. But their web page is not clear on how to specify that.

I have one 401 (Hal´s advice too)... im not using it yet, but the construction is very good for 50 bucks.

[Alan B]

What did you specify for the parameters? How did they get the info?

[gensem]

What did you specify for the parameters? How did they get the info?

Erm... i got one yasusu for my genesis frame my borg has another shock...

I think hal/accountant has the measure and the spring should be 600-700lbs I guess.

[Alan B]

Borg Work Day

Really tired after a tough day of ebike riding, driving, pancake breakfast, working on Greyborg, pizza, and driving home.

Thanks to a bunch of help from Stevil we have tires mounted on beautiful wheels, headset, stem, handlebars mounted, and a few other things.

Rear wheel with Cromotor, spokes. rim, tube and tire weighs abut 33 pounds. One solid wheel!

The spokes on the front wheel are bumping the calipers so spacers for the brake discs are needed.

[Alan B]

A few Highlights

[ddk]

[b]2...
Please don't try this at home unless you have an aluminum cutting rated blade in your saw. I used a 120 tooth carbide blade in a 12" chop saw. I cut slowly and held the case very still, better yet clamp it. Clean up all the aluminum chips from the box and reinstall the controller, taking care to torque the heatsink screws carefully and evenly. Make sure the heatsink compound is not disturbed or loaded with aluminum chips.

Now it Drops In!

I found that mounting a carbide-tipped blade backwards on a cut-off or miter saw makes a cleaner/safer cut on aluminum.
I use the same back-wards saw blade technique to cut a variety of plastics including PVC pipe. No chipping.
fyi

[GCinDC]

A few Highlights

looking awesome! i'm having a real jealousy problem that i think can only be solved by the purchase of one cromotor.

it's been fasinating watching your evolution, i must say. from what, a year and a half ago, such a classic beginning...

I have a pristine aluminum mountain bike that is a few years old.... I don't have a lot of free time so will probably not build much to start with but use good quality existing modules and kit parts... desire to be able to go 20 mph...

[Alan B]

I'm having a lot of fun, Greg. Thanks for your early encouragement. A lot has happened in a year and a half. My wallet is lighter too. I need to ride these things a whole lot to recover the savings in gas...

There is something about riding a bike you "made" that adds a lot to the experience.

What is the cost of an ebike addiction?

Less than golfing, flying, yachting, hot rodding cars, and a few dozen other hobbies.

What is the value of the ebike grin?

Priceless..

Stevil made an observation on Sunday when looking at his versus my Greyborg rear wheels. They both have the same tire, the 17 by 3" Gazelle moped. His Xlyte HT3525 disappears behind this fat tire. The beefy Cromotor is visible on both sides of this tire. I won't need a spacer on the freewheel to make the chain clear the tire But I will still need a small spacer to make sure the freewheel and chain clear the motor.

I tested the 3" tire in the Swagman bike rack. No problem fitting into the tire hoops. Hopefully the weight won't be a problem either.

On to the current issues:

I'm working on ordering a rear shock from Yasusu. As suggested by Hal - the Model BNCP401, 170mm long, 30mm bushings both ends, 8mm bolts, 90kg rider weight. Stevil has a shorter 160mm long rear shock, but his cranks are also shorter at 160mm. My cranks are 172.5mm so I want a slightly longer shock. I'm guessing that this won't be the last shock I buy, but I need something soon to start with. The order is not quite in place, we're exchanging some email to set it up. Should be on order very soon.

I'm also ordering spacers to move the dual front discs out away from the spoke-caliper interference. Hopefully 2.5mm will be enough. The other option is to go to larger discs, these are 160mm. The problem with going to larger disks is finding the mirror image caliper adapters. With duals I hope 160mm is enough disk area (at least for my riding style, Luke would melt them in seconds). It is sort of like a single 320mm disc. The problem is the caliper width is enough to touch the spokes now. It is hard to judge but 2.5mm may well be enough to clear it. Ebikes.ca have a 2.5mm spacer that I'll try first.

The next big step on the frame is to fit the crankset and swingarms. This ATS Schlumpf requires bevelling of the bottom bracket tube with a special tool that Ilia of ebikessf.com has, and it looks to me like this needs to be done before the swingarms are installed. Then the swingarms must go on before the crankset is installed with the special tools. So I need to be prepared to install the swingarm in the midst of the Schlumpf install, or rent the tools.

Some folks sand off the paint and make the swingarms slide on. Others press the swingarms on without removing the paint and get a tighter fit. Seems like a tighter fit here is good. So I'm planning to do that. Perhaps remove a bit of finish at the outer edge to help things start straight, but not all of it, and it will be very tight. To push the swingarms on properly I'm planning to make a tool. I have some two inch diameter aluminum bar stock that is just about the right size for this tool. I'll chuck in the lathe and turn a diameter to fit in the bottom bracket and make a shoulder that will push on the inner race of the bearing so there will be no force on the bearing balls etc. I ordered a threaded rod so I'll center bore a hole through a pair of these turned bar sections and make a custom Greyborg swingarm installation tool. Then we can seat the swingarms on efficiently and straight when it is time.

At least that's my current plan. Any comments would be welcomed!

[Alan B]

A few bolts are needed to put the swingarm together. Looks like:

2x M8-1.25 by 20mm button head for the threaded studs.

1x M8-1.25 by 45mm for the shock upper end, plus nylock nut and two washers for the outside (inside is bushings and shock).

1x M8-1.25 by 60-65mm socket cap for the shock lower end, plus lockwasher, goes into threaded socket in swingarm, (inside is bushings and shock).

4x M6-1.0x12mm with washers and nylock nuts to tie the two sheet metal flanges together.

1x M8-1.25x20mm socket cap for the seatpost clamp.

Stevil used a quick release skewer through the seatpost clamp and that is one nice technique. In that case it needs to be thin enough to slide through the M8 threads, or use a 20mm socket cap screw and perhaps put a hole through the plastic to reach it, and a rubber plug in the hole.

The threads are a bit filled with powdercoat/paint so they need to be chased with a tap and lightly greased to prevent rusting.

edit - updating per further comments and measurements.

[gensem]

Are bolts metric or imperial?

I was under the impression that needed bolts measured in inches.

[Alan B]

Stevil gave me some that were metric, presumably that's what he used in his. Wouldn't expect Hal to use inches.

But I'm not 100% certain.

Hal's list doesn't have all the measurements, but the ones that are there are metric. When I test metric bolts in the holes they don't get very far, it is either the paint or the threads.

I'll do some more checking and see if I can verify it.

Anyone else know?

[Stevil_Knevil]

A few bolts are needed to put the swingarm together. Looks like:

2x M8-1.25 by 20mm for the threaded studs,

2x M8-1.25 by 50mm for the shock,

4x M6-1.0 by short with washers and nylock nuts to tie the two sheet metal flanges together.

I need to look at the seatpost to see what it needs. Stevil used a quick release skewer through the seatpost clamp and that is one nice technique. In that case it needs to be thin enough to slide through the threads.

The threads are a bit filled with powdercoat/paint so they need to be chased with a tap and lightly greased to prevent rusting.

Hey Alan,

Yes, Metric -> the threaded studs and shock mounting bolts are indeed M8-1.25. Looks like your #s are correct, but I measured ~60mm long for the shock's lower allen cap screw/head bolt. Optimally, all the other bolts would be button head.

Got a good feeling that those rotor spacers are going to do the trick..

..26 of 25 - be efficient

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0001490/quotes

"Star Trek: Voyager: Dark Frontier: Part 2 (#5.16)" (1999)
Borg Queen: We are Borg.
Seven of Nine: I am an individual!
Borg Queen: You're only repeating their words. You sound like a mindless automaton.

Borg Queen: You've changed. Your exo-plating, your ocular implant. They've taken you apart; and they've recreated you in their own image. Hair, garments. But at the core, you are still mine.
Seven of Nine: The Borg have changed as well. I expected re-assimilation, not conversation.
Borg Queen: I see they've also given you a sense of humor.
Seven of Nine: My humor is my own.
Borg Queen: Spoken like a true individual.

Seven of Nine: I am Annika Hansen, Human.
Borg Queen: I remember Annika. Does she remember us? She wasn't afraid. Why are you?

Borg Queen: We won't turn you into a drone. You're much too valuable to us with your individuality intact. But you've left humanity behind. Try to abandon their petty emotions as well. Fear... anger... vanity... They've corrupted you. But the damage can be repaired.

Borg Queen: We want you to be our eyes. Let us see Humanity.

Borg Queen: We don't want another drone. We want you.
Seven of Nine: I will resist.
Borg Queen: I know.

Borg Queen: Stop resisting. Take pleasure in this.
Seven of Nine: I will not take pleasure in the destruction of a race!
Borg Queen: Human sentiment. Compassion, guilt, empathy - they're irrelevant.
Seven of Nine: Not to me.
Borg Queen: "Me"? There is no 'me'. There is only 'us'. One mind.
Seven of Nine: My thoughts are my own.

Borg Queen, Seven of Nine: [respectively] Our thoughts are one.

Seven of Nine: You attacked us. You murdered my family!
Borg Queen: We did no such thing. We gave them perfection.
[one Borg steps forward into the light]
Seven of Nine: [aghast] Papa...?

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Let her go, or I'll give the order to fire.
Borg Queen: You would be destroyed as well, along with your crewman.
Captain Kathryn Janeway: Better than being one of you!

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Seven, shut down that field.
Borg Queen: Don't listen to her. She's poisoned your thoughts long enough.
Captain Kathryn Janeway: [to Seven] I'm giving you an order!
Borg Queen: One order, one voice! Insignificant!

Borg Queen: Seven of Nine - be efficient.

http://www.gorillavid.in/cnb/ajh12r9a1xgn

[Alan B]

You are right about that swingarm shock bolt length. 65mm will even fit. I updated the earlier post to make it correct. Thanks.

Tonite I chased the threads with M8-1.25 tap and that's the right size. It fit nicely. The threads are now ready.

Some of the parts came in, the all thread for the swingarm press I'm making; the 16mm NordLock washers; a small flap sander to clean out the seat tube with. Still waiting for the disc spacers.

[Alan B]

Rotor spacers arrived. Look nice. Will try them shortly.

I reviewed ilia's video on Schlumpf drive installation. It is pretty clear that the swingarm won't be in the way of the cutter. So I will see about pressing that on tomorrow. Then we'll have a roller!

[Alan B]

Front rotor spacers are in. Dual front 4 pot Gatorbrakes are on. They clear the spokes, which is the important thing. I need to find more spacers to get the calipers centered, but they will work now, they just drag slightly on one side.

The seatpost is another story. Very disappointing. A couple of hours of working on it and only about 1.5 inches of progress. My back is sore, enough for now. Tolerances are tight, and then welding distorts the tube, not easy to fix. Have been sanding out the inside of the tube. More to go.

[Alan B]

When something is not working out, it is probably due to the wrong tool, the wrong technique, or both.

I'm a lot happier now than a few hours ago.

I was using a 1" by 1" flap drum on a 4" mandrel with 80 grit driven by a Makita 18V drill inside the seat tube. This is a nice tool but not efficient for this. I picked up a 1" 60 grit sanding drum, and I switched to a 1/4" air driven die grinder. It spins a lot faster than the drill. It still took awhile, but I was able to get 8" of seatpost into the tube. I finished up with the 80 grit flap disc, it leaves a very nice finish in the tube. It fits down to the level of the bottom weld on the seat tube. So I cut the seatpost to 8" long and installed the seat. Finally!

The seat clamp is M8 by 20mm.

Next I took the 2" diameter bar of 6061 Aluminum and ...

More later...