EbikeE and BMC for Comfort and Range

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby pdf » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:24 pm

My experience with a mid-drive and hub upright are:

1) the mid-drive of course climbs like a goat. It does it with amazingly few watts. It will carry a tremendous load.
2) my 2810 hub-motor MTB on 18s will also climb like a goat but it wants to be going over 10 mph to do so. 15 is even better. 20 is awesome. If you are carrying a large load, it is going to take a lot of power. If you have and can sustain the power, it is faster and more fun.

Power required to climb hills is a function of grade and speed, no matter what the drive system is. My hub motor bike will climb a very steep hill as long as I maintain a high enough speed and I watch the power. It will not carry the load my mid-drive utility bike will because it would require too much power and would overheat if it had to climb very long. I'm sure you could build a hub motor that would, however. It would suck the power doing it though.

I have often thought about getting a recumbent similar to the one you show. If I did, I would put a hub motor on it that would get me to 25 mph at 18s. I have some 20% grades but they are short. I have some longer runs of 5-10% grades and I can do those at 20 mph for at least a mile or more without the motor or controller getting significantly warm. I like my mid-drive, but there are more parts and the drive train parts wear faster due to the fact that the extra torque is going through the entire drive train. It would be a daily driver and not a big cargo carrier.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby StudEbiker » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:37 pm

The front fork is indeed steel, but be aware that one of the issues you will have to deal with in a front hub application is finding or making a 36h 16" wheel. A great option would be to get the Hammerschmidt that mdd007 has for sale and put the Magic Pie in the back. That would be too cool for school! 8) It would be a bit spendy though. :(

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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:17 pm

Thanks for the comments.

Good point on the spoke count in the front wheel. I do recall seeing that somewhere before but had not thought about it recently.

I notice that Golden Motor Canada has a 16" 1000W scooter wheel. May be too wide for the front fork.

The 20" Magic Pie II external controller seems like a good fit for 18S 25 mph. Or perhaps a Mac or BMC gearmotor. I wonder which would be more efficient for a 100 mile ride at 20 mph with hills (like the Mega Enduro)?

An interesting battery mount might be some of that PVC downspout material. Strap over or under the frame beam. Very clean looking. Could have a pair of 18S 1KW sections, use as needed depending on trip length.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby chvidgov.bc.ca » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:26 pm

In my mind the ideal motor for that is a Crystalyte 404 (16") front, but you can't find those anymore. You could also use a Crystalyte 209 which is a lower powered small direct drive motor set up for folders - 79mm dropout width. It is quite high RPM and would work nicely in a 16" wheel, but it wouldn't be very fast, topping out around 20mph I imagine. That would give you nice balance with batteries on the back. Otherwise it would be tail-heavy with a rear motor, unless a small geared type, with tendencies to wheelie, especially if you are tall and have the seat right back. Otherwise a mid-drive would be better like a cylone or similar. I've got a 404 on a 16" front wheel on a Rebike recumbent and it is very fast and quiet.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:28 pm

Thanks for your comments.

I didn't expect there was much wheelie potential in a recumbent. Interesting to know. I'm a bit under six feet tall so the seat is not all the way back.

I expect that I'll set up the back for a Topeak trunk bag. Perhaps I can mount the top part of the rack right on the rail. I won't use that for batteries, that's reserved for important stuff like my lunch.

I'll probably put batteries along the main beam as far forward as I can, if the motor is in the rear hub.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Rassy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:01 pm

StudEbiker wrote:
but be aware that one of the issues you will have to deal with in a front hub application is finding or making a 36h 16" wheel.

I don't think it should be a problem. A few years ago I puchased a Bafang from JohnRobHolmes and he laced it into a nice Sun Rhyno Lite double wall 16" rim with 36 holes. Prior to that I decided to relace one of my BD36's into a 16" wheel and purchased a basic single wall 36 hole rim directly from Wilderness Energy.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:27 pm

Options at 16 inches, good to know.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby docnjoj » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:19 am

My wife rode a Bike-e with a front C/L brushed motor for years and really enjoyed it. I laced the 16" front hub and it is still working 10 years later. We now ride trikes cause of too many E/R visits on 2 wheels but the Bke-e is still used by grandkids. Reliable and fairly good handling. Front wheel drive works well at 36 volts and at 54 volts it really flies. You don't notice the brushed ineffeciency much in a small wheel like this.
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edit: I did have to bend the front steel fork a bit to fit the motor but probably a 9C or Magicpie would fit without bending.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby sk8norcal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:57 pm

Alan B wrote:
veloman wrote:A BikeE isn't very aerodynamic, there are many better options. It might be a tad better than a mtb position, but not by much if at all.


Thanks for your comments.

From what I've read a non-faired recumbent does have a notable edge over a racing bike, and a racing bike has a notable edge over a mountain bike. So I would expect some improvement. Based on frontal area it would seem that the main difference is the legs rotating 90 degrees from about the worst cross section to about the best for the legs and feet.

But you may be right, the difference may be not too large. I would hope it might be 10-20% but who knows. At least it is not likely worse.

I read that a good rider on a recumbent beat four probably better riders in a peleton. So perhaps a recumbent is comparable to the efficiency of a peleton.


not even close to a peleton...

there's big difference between a lowracer and a comfort cruiser.
I think the bikeE is probably worse than a road bike with aero bars.

so far, non-faired recumbents have not been able to beat the upright (no aero bar) in the hour.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:09 pm

I was referring to memory of reading the following from the wikipedia article on recumbent bicycles:

On 7 July 1933, at a Paris velodrome, Faure rode a Velocar 45.055 km (27.996 mi) in one hour, beating an almost 20-year-old hour record held by Oscar Egg,
...
In 2003, Rob English took on and beat the UK 4-man pursuit champions VC St Raphael in a 4000 m challenge race at Reading, beating them by a margin of 4 min 55.5 s to 5 min 6.87 s - and dropping one of the St Raphael riders along the way.


Of course I don't know all the details of these, and the EbikeE isn't the same as these racing recumbents, but my expectation is only that an EbikeE is more aerodynamic than a Mountain Bike. I have read that people have ridden EbikeE's in 100 mile rides, how many folks ride mountain bikes in 100 mile rides?
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby sk8norcal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Alan B wrote:I was referring to memory of reading the following from the wikipedia article on recumbent bicycles:

On 7 July 1933, at a Paris velodrome, Faure rode a Velocar 45.055 km (27.996 mi) in one hour, beating an almost 20-year-old hour record held by Oscar Egg,
...
In 2003, Rob English took on and beat the UK 4-man pursuit champions VC St Raphael in a 4000 m challenge race at Reading, beating them by a margin of 4 min 55.5 s to 5 min 6.87 s - and dropping one of the St Raphael riders along the way.


Of course I don't know all the details of these, and the EbikeE isn't the same as these racing recumbents, but my expectation is only that an EbikeE is more aerodynamic than a Mountain Bike. I have read that people have ridden EbikeE's in 100 mile rides, how many folks ride mountain bikes in 100 mile rides?


4000m olympic record is like 3:55, so I am not sure about that claim.
and I think they are talking about a fully faired recumbent, which would have a big advantage and completely impractical.

The "unfaired" recumbents that have beat the record (non aero bars) use a tail box fairing and still haven't top the "aero bar" record.

and plenty of people have done centuries on mountain bikes, its not unusual at all, just not ideal,
so ur bikeE is probably more aero than a mt bike, but its like the least aero for all recumbents due to the high sitting position.


regarding the velocar record,
it was a long time ago...
notice he's pretty laid back like the low/high racer...

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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Warren » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:44 pm

"I didn't expect there was much wheelie potential in a recumbent."

Nice wheelie at 3 minutes into video!

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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby sk8norcal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:48 pm

found some links here,
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/r ... apeldoorn/
http://www.recumbents.com/wrra/WRRA_News_Update1.htm

hour record, km

upright:
Boardman 56.375 (aero bar, superman)
Sosenka 49.700 (no aero bar, no disk)

recumbent:
Bonneteau 50.529 (unfaired recumbent)
Wessels 53.019 (recumbent with tail fairing)

Image


if i did my math right, they avg 38.07 mph/61.27 kph for 4K !!! :shock:

Last edited by sk8norcal on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:59 pm

Warren wrote:"I didn't expect there was much wheelie potential in a recumbent."

Nice wheelie at 3 minutes into video!

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36048&p=523549#p523091


I saw that video AFTER I posted that comment. That's almost a Luke powered bent, Agni style. Amazing. :)

I don't think I could ride laying down like those folks. I guess you can learn most anything, but seems pretty strange.

But the real question is, how does the bikeE compare to a normal mountain bike?

AND, how much Lipo can I fit into the main beam? This could be a sleeper of an ebike with almost nothing visible. That is tempting. I would need a secondary battery for long rides, but for short stuff I can probably get at least 700 watt hours into the main beam. Maybe, I haven't looked to see what is in the way. There's some structure in there so it may not be ideal.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby sk8norcal » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:11 am

Alan B wrote:But the real question is, how does the bikeE compare to a normal mountain bike?
.


I think you said ur aim is 25mph flat-speed
you can try a simple coasting downhill test...
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:18 am

Yes, I had thought about a coasting test. Use the same GPS on both bikes.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Warren » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:58 am

Alan,

"Yes, I had thought about a coasting test. Use the same GPS on both bikes."

Load the lighter bike, so they are the same weight. Run all tires at same psi. Ride the MTB in your normal riding position, not nose on the bar. :-)

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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:02 am

bikeE Internal Batteries?

1-3/8" by 3-1/4" by 26" approximately available inside the frame. But there are obstructions in the form of four nuts that hold the rear wheel strut, plus the cables run through there. Not sure if the nuts are captured, it appears they might be.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby padauk » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:06 am

I have had my bikeE electrified for the last 2 years it's a long frame bike RX front and rear suspension 9 speed 34-12 tooth freewheel on the back. I am running a rear wheel BMC speed 800 watt motor 48v 10amp lipo. Average speed on the flats with peddling is 18 to 20 mph, up a steep hill is 12mph. The motor won't let it drop below 10mph on my steep hill. I have a fairing that I use in the cold months and take it off for the summer. With the fairing on my speed increases maybe 2 mph on the flats but I do use more battery power with the fairing off. Getting 30 miles to a charge, the motor is very quiet. What I like most is the acceleration from a stop 0 to 12 mph in a very short distance.
My controller and battery hangs below the seat on the pannier rack that was made for the bikeE. I have disc brakes to slow the bike down 1900 miles so far and everything is working flawless. The motor and all necessary parts from Ilia at http://www.ebikessf.com/
Hope this is helpful
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:10 am

Thanks for the info, Mark!

That sounds very good. 48*10/30 = 16 watt hours per mile. :D

I hope I do that well!
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:22 am

I would like to take this bike on the Mega Enduro 100 mile ride, so I'm trying to figure out how to strap 2kwh of batteries onto it.

There's not a lot of time as the ride is only a week away.

There's not a lot of room either.

A gearmotor is being laced into a 20" rim for the rear wheel.

This is temporary, I don't plan to use that much battery on this bike all the time.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:17 pm

Added a bunch of photos to the album. Link to the album is here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/Alan.Biocc ... directlink

Here is one of the photos:

Image
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:48 pm

Just added a few more photos of the rear forks.

Image

Looks like the forks are riveted to the frame, not bolted. :(

Looks like the rear forks are alloy, and the dropouts are alloy. The axle also looks small. That may be a problem.

Edit - Correction, according to my magnet the rear forks and dropouts are magnetic. :)
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby Alan B » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:16 pm

Spent some quality time with the BikeE today. Aside from getting some riding in, and reworking cables and adjusting things so it runs a little better, I also made a plan for a simple battery holder.

I don't have a drawing to share (just an ugly handCAD sketch), but basically it is a rack that sits below the seat on either side. I will haywire one together tomorrow out of wood and see if it is going to work. It has to hold about 35 pounds of batteries.

I made a mistake last week and ordered the 5S 8AH zippy batteries, so I had to re-order them. Luckily it was a small order. So if anyone needs 5S 8AH Zippys, I have three brand new ones I don't need. Drop me a PM and I'll save you a few clams.
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Re: ebikeE Recumbent Project Planning

Postby mr.electric » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:23 pm

I remember seeing a few ebikeE's with the Zap roller kit. The I beam frame worked well holding lead batteries under the frame pointing downwards. The old zap batteries came in a solid black cloth bag with velcro straps and a plastic base that strapped on with hose clamps.
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