Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:35 pm

rui_fujino wrote:I've got HS3540 and so far it does 44.5mph top speed(flat) with 20s2p lipo. So if you go for 24s you will have no trouble getting 40mph, infact you could get 45mph out of it (unless you bike is really heavy).
Also, 50amp on lyen sounds good to me, I use 50amp too and motor won't get warm at all while doing 5min WOT! But controller do get hot so you wouldn't want to do 20min of WOT....:p
It looks modified to me but then I have not seen unmodified ones so I'm not 100% sure


Is that a 12 fet controller you're using that gets hot? Would an 18 Fet controller be more appropriate for full throttle for 15 to 20 minutes? Your top speed sounds pretty good to me. I don't know how often I'll actually be riding at max speed but it will certainly be nice to have it and be able to sustain it for 15 to 20 minutes.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby rui_fujino » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:42 pm

electr0n wrote:
rui_fujino wrote:I've got HS3540 and so far it does 44.5mph top speed(flat) with 20s2p lipo. So if you go for 24s you will have no trouble getting 40mph, infact you could get 45mph out of it (unless you bike is really heavy).
Also, 50amp on lyen sounds good to me, I use 50amp too and motor won't get warm at all while doing 5min WOT! But controller do get hot so you wouldn't want to do 20min of WOT....:p
It looks modified to me but then I have not seen unmodified ones so I'm not 100% sure


Is that a 12 fet controller you're using that gets hot? Would an 18 Fet controller be more appropriate for full throttle for 15 to 20 minutes? Your top speed sounds pretty good to me. I don't know how often I'll actually be riding at max speed but it will certainly be nice to have it and be able to sustain it for 15 to 20 minutes.


yea im using 12fets. 18fets maybe better but if you do use 18fets, your battery will get drained so much faster... as far as i know, I never need to go faster than 40mph for such a long period of time since there are on road around me where I can go so fast without risking danger :P
If you want to go 20min WOT then you might want to get more than 10ah for your distance
PS: you got fullface helmet?
Project 1: Apollo slant hard tail MTB 52v lifepo4, conhismotor, 52T-11T gearing 39.6mph top speed (with pedal)
Project 2: Diamondback s:10 Full suspension 20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 35kg, HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen controller, Bulk 600w balance charger.
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
Project 3: DOPPELGANGER d2 Visceral
Project 5 Specialized Epic20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 30kg,HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen @ 50A
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby stewrobb » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:56 am

yea im using 12fets. 18fets maybe better but if you do use 18fets, your battery will get drained so much faster... as far as i know, I never need to go faster than 40mph for such a long period of time since there are on road around me where I can go so fast without risking danger
If you want to go 20min WOT then you might want to get more than 10ah for your distance
PS: you got fullface helmet?



18 MOSFET's drains your battery faster than 12 huh... This is news to me lol. Actually, there is just less resistance because of the increased amount of FET's, setting an 18 FET to the same current as a 12 FET results in a cooler controller, with less sag. To get the same effect, you can just upgrade the FET's to 4110 or alike, less resistance.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby dogman dan » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:58 pm

Well, 12 fets set to 40 amps will draw slower than 18 fets set to 60 amps. Maybe that's the difference?
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum

See battery technology section, FAQ thread at the top of the page for lipo noob info.

See the frankenbike longtail at the thread below.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby nicobie » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:02 pm

It seems like everybody likes the HS3540, but I think the HT3525 is better for most folks who run 26" wheels. Not only does the HT have 5% more copper than the HS, it gets out of the dangerous heating mode quicker. It's the heat that kills these motors, so the sooner it gets to its efficient speed the easier on the motor it is.

As to hitting 40 mph,, My HT3525 with a Lyen 12 fet controller set at 60 battery amps, 100.3V hot off charger in a 24" wheel w/2.5 hookworms will go 43.5 mph and so far the temp gauge hasn't gone over 80C. It mostly stays under 60C. I do have my sidecovers drilled (6 x 1½" holes).

I'd play it safe and go with the HT3525 unless you are planning to run a 20" rim.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby cwah » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:51 pm

What about using small sized wheel? Acceleration is much better allowing you to reach the maximum speed (and optimal efficiency) much quicker.

On the simulator, HS3540 on 16" wheel at 100V and 40amps give you 40 mph and it never overheat.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby rui_fujino » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:39 pm

I think best starting point is by thinking of Max price you want ti spend on it.
If you run 26" then 20s (83v hot lipo) to reach 40+mph
If you run 20-24" then 24s (99.6v hot lipo) to reach 40+mph
Another word more battery more cost.

After chosen the wheel size then you should already got idea of which motor to get.

Personally 26 is better for being able to pedal at higher speed (up to 35mph with 11t freewheel )
Project 1: Apollo slant hard tail MTB 52v lifepo4, conhismotor, 52T-11T gearing 39.6mph top speed (with pedal)
Project 2: Diamondback s:10 Full suspension 20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 35kg, HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen controller, Bulk 600w balance charger.
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
Project 3: DOPPELGANGER d2 Visceral
Project 5 Specialized Epic20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 30kg,HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen @ 50A
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:46 am

I've already picked up an HS3540 in a 26" wheel. I was put off by the HT3525 due to the slower speed at my current battery voltage of 66.6v. Also the torque seems to drop off pretty quick towards the top end of the speed on the simulator. I do appreciate that the HT takes more time to overheat and has slightly more copper. Nicobie the speed you report off your HT seems a little faster than the simulator predicts, it sounds pretty good actually and that would work for me. You must have really nice acceleration with that setup. I'll have to wait and see for myself how much of an issue heat becomes and let that determine my next eventual motor purchase.

I haven't any experience with the slower wound motors. I tend to look more at the faster speed windings so I can hit a target speed using less voltage but then overheating does become an issue this way and slower speeds tend to be less efficient. I was thinking I'll probably be able to control the heat with my riding style and if that's not enough I'll eventually either drill holes, install fans or move to a smaller diameter wheel. It does seem that a lot of folks here prefer the slower wound motors and just throwing voltage at them to get the speed up. Part of my decision was based on price which is the primary reason I picked up a local second hand HS laced into a 26" wheel, seller claimed it had never been used and it looked mint to me and I saved almost $100. Still have yet to test it out though. Fingers crossed there are no cut hall wires. I took a chance to save some money. Hopefully I won't get burned.

Last night I modified my old 36v to 72v crystaltye 20 amp controller. I added some solder to the shunt and took the bike out for a test ride. I don't have a cycle analyst or anything to measure the power I'm pulling now but I felt a real nice boost in torque and acceleration last night and I had the classic ebike grin going. :mrgreen: My old motor has new life.

I'm actually excited to go into work this morning to take out my old 407 front crystalyte, I'm still using to commute, with the new shunt mod I installed last night.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 pm

After several rides with my modified Crystalyte 36-72v 20amp controller it was running nice on my 407. I decided to throw it on my HS3540 and was thrilled all the phase and hall wires matched up without having to swap wires around. I took the bike out for a test ride and the torque and power was really nice, a significant improvement over the 407 at the same wattage. I also noticed a big difference in the rear wheel drive vs the front wheel. The front end of the bike felt very light, which is good when going up curbs and bumps but it didn't feel as stable at high speed due to the light front end. I also blew up my 20 amp controller. So the HS3540 must be more demanding on the controller than the 407. Now waiting on replacement controllers to arrive. In the mean time I'm taking the bus to work and it takes me an hour to get to work, when the same trip took under 30 minutes via ebike!

Here's the bike. It's cheap. No indoor storage at the moment so no sense in getting a more expensive bike at this point.

SupercycleHS3540.jpg
My bike


Here's a picture of the wire cut protector I made from an aluminum tea can. Hope it does the job. Idea emulated from sn0wchild I believe.

Wirecutprotector.jpg
Wire cut protection


Here's my burnt out controller. It was pretty hot after a short 5 minute ride on the HS3540.

BurntController.jpg
Burnt Controller
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby rui_fujino » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:35 pm

what controller are you planning to replace buy? I recommend Lyen 12 fet since he works very hard and do the right job perfectly!
also he's controller will be programmable as well as 3 way switch compatible. :wink:
Project 1: Apollo slant hard tail MTB 52v lifepo4, conhismotor, 52T-11T gearing 39.6mph top speed (with pedal)
Project 2: Diamondback s:10 Full suspension 20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 35kg, HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen controller, Bulk 600w balance charger.
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
Project 3: DOPPELGANGER d2 Visceral
Project 5 Specialized Epic20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 30kg,HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen @ 50A
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:45 pm

Yep a Lyen 12 fet is in the mail. I got Lyen to set it for 50 amps, and I'll run between 66.6v and 88.8v. I also got another infineon 72v 40amp replacement for the burned one from ebikes.ca. I'm not looking forward to playing with the hall and phase wires. Anyone know if the wiring are the same between Lyen's controllers and the ones from ebikes.ca? I do know they are both Infineon.

Here's the wiring for the ebikes.ca controller according to their website:

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/C7240-NC.jpg
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:59 pm

Here's another picture of my bike with the batteries mounted.

HS3540SuperCycle.jpg
My Second ebike


I was riding with the batteries in a backpack but I don't really like it that much. I don't like feeling attached to the bike with the power wires and it wasn't all that stealthy having wires hanging out of a backpack leading to the bike. The only thing I do like about the battery in a backpack is the convenience when it's time to get off the bike. I can easily carry the battery around while running errands. For actual riding though I prefer the weight of the batteries to be on the frame.

I've got three 6S 8 amp hour zippy lipos in the battery bag. Two batteries hang on either side of the top tube and the third rests between the other two on the top tube itself. There is a small aluminum platform mounted on the top tube beneath the battery bag to provide some stability. The batteries are strapped down with some elastic Velcro straps I picked up from a dollar store. The battery bag is pretty stable and can't slide around this way. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It's a pretty clean install. All the wires are hidden well. The controller is in a nylon bag mounted to the seat post which conceals it and also offers some additional rain protection. The bag can be unzipped for hot days.

I'm pretty happy with the top speed (for now). I'm able to keep up with traffic for the most part. Now I need to double my battery capacity and get a cycle analyst on there so I can monitor everything.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby BikeFanatic » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 pm

Hi Electron,
That is a nice clean build, very stealthy. Would you care to share a link to the bags that holds the 8 AMPHR Lipo and the controller?
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby rui_fujino » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:06 pm

if you are getting 40mph you might wanna upgrade to disc brake soon?
Project 1: Apollo slant hard tail MTB 52v lifepo4, conhismotor, 52T-11T gearing 39.6mph top speed (with pedal)
Project 2: Diamondback s:10 Full suspension 20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 35kg, HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen controller, Bulk 600w balance charger.
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
Project 3: DOPPELGANGER d2 Visceral
Project 5 Specialized Epic20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 30kg,HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen @ 50A
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Bike Fanatic,

I picked up both bags locally. The controller bag is actually a toiletry bag I bought from a sporting good store http://en.atmosphere.ca/index.html. I just shoved the controller in there and folded up the extra wiring, poked a couple holes through it for Zip ties and run the zip ties through the mounting holes on the controller then I zip it up. You could do the same thing with any bag. It was actually way over priced I think I paid close to $20 for that little bag.

The battery bag is also nothing special just a regular bag designed for a rear rack. I got that one from Canadian Tire for about $20. I just bend the bag in the center and put one lipo on each side of the top tube and the third one goes in between the other two and it works like a saddle bag. Just beneath the battery in the middle there is an aluminum plate zip tied onto the top tube and it helps stabilize the bag and gives the center battery a flat platform to rest on. Then I cut a couple slits on the inside of the bag and ran Velcro around the batteries and coming out the bottom of the bag rather than strapping it outside which is kind of ugly.

The weight feels pretty good this way. I'm not sure if I'm going to leave it like this or not. My knees brush the bag a bit and I find it a little annoying to pedal. I think I might try getting a couple more bags about the size of the controller bag and hang the batteries vertically towards the front so my knees don't rub against anything at all.

BatteryBag.jpg
Battery bag from the top


rui_fujino,

Yes I need better brakes for sure. V brakes are not good enough above 50kph and they wear out really fast. I was going to use regenerative braking to help with slowing down but I'm a little concerned about putting too much stress on the dropouts even though they are pretty thick steel and I'm running two fairly thick steel torque arms. I think I have mounting holes on my fork for disc brakes. It's on the to do list. I also need to get a dc dc converter hooked up so I can install my gorilla alarm system that I've had sitting in a box for over a year.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 am

I've had a chance to ride my bike a few times at 66.6v 40 amps and it's a lot of fun but when riding into a strong headwind I still feel somewhat under powered. I think my target is going to move up a little to 88.8v and 60 to 65 amps. Is that asking too much from a 12 fet lyen controller? What is the benefit of the 18 fet controller? Is it necessary for that power level?
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby nicobie » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:24 pm

electr0n wrote:I've had a chance to ride my bike a few times at 66.6v 40 amps and it's a lot of fun but when riding into a strong headwind I still feel somewhat under powered. I think my target is going to move up a little to 88.8v and 60 to 65 amps. Is that asking too much from a 12 fet lyen controller? What is the benefit of the 18 fet controller? Is it necessary for that power level?


That's what I run and so far, so good.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:46 pm

That's good to know the 12 fet can handle that power. I think I'm going to go with an 18 fet to be safe and give me some room for additional power in case I decide to get an x5 or something more powerful later.

Now I have another question regarding the halls. My motor stutters a bit particularly on modest inclines and also when I engage the throttle sometimes when using close to full throttle. It doesn't seem consistent. I usually notice it I'd guess upwards of 40kph. It's hard to describe it just doesn't feel smooth like the timing in the motor is off.

My question is it possible to have a working hall and phase combination that seems to be working almost perfectly but shows slight stuttering, could this be due to a bad wiring combination? I've been able to ride it into work and back twice now, plus a couple leisure rides. The thing works but there is this slight hesitation at times. It doesn't feel totally smooth at all times. Are there hall / phase combos that will work 90% good but exhibit symptoms like this?

My first guess is a bad connection at the phase or hall wires. I soldered the halls directly to the controller, but maybe one of them came loose or had a cold solder joint. My second guess is I've damaged one of the wires around the axle.

Any guesses? I hate to keep pulling the motor off and messing around with the delicate hall and phase wires around the axle.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:08 pm

Well I took the side cover off to inspect the wires around the axle more closely. I found what looked like a burn mark and I cut off the white fiberglass stuff covering the wires expecting to find a partially cut wire or something but instead I found nothing. All wires appear to be intact. What looked like a burn mark must have been a grease stain or something.

Before opening the motor I also checked my soldered hall connections and they all appear to be well connected. Nothing was loose. The phase wires are in the Anderson connectors, I didn't inspect them too closely, not expecting a problem there. I was really expecting to have a wire partially cut in the axle groove. So now I'm at a loss. Maybe one of my battery connections is loose or something?

Any ideas? Opening the motor wasn't a total loss, at least I was able to spray the inside with some anti corrosion stuff. I also know for sure I have no wire cut issues, or at least I didn't notice anything obvious.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby GCinDC » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 am

electr0n wrote: I hate to keep pulling the motor off and messing around with the delicate hall and phase wires around the axle.

why? don't you think it's fun? just kidding. i think it's about time some design a hinged access panel... :lol:

electr0n wrote: I found what looked like a burn mark and I cut off the white fiberglass stuff covering the wires
electr0n wrote:Any ideas? Opening the motor wasn't a total loss, at least I was able to spray the inside with some anti corrosion stuff. I also know for sure I have no wire cut issues, or at least I didn't notice anything obvious.

oh, whoops, this was from march?? i just tracked down this thread from some of your other q's, and thought it'd be the best place to respond.

are you still having this issue??

if so, i was going to say that i've had similar problems, and was only able to fix them by replacing the hall wires.

do you have more q's about power levels? ie, 88x 60A?

i've been running the same 12 fet 45A ecrazyman controller for 1.5 years now. but MAX i've had it to is 5kw (@24s), and average PEAK is 4kw @20s.

and to answer you q elsewhere, i have a lot of hills nearby, nothing like mountains, but nonassisted cycling is not very fun. :lol:

more to the point, what is your terrain? commute distance?
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:52 pm

Yes I'm still having the same intermittent stuttering issue. It happens mostly when I'm accelerating hard or if I'm pulling a heavy load (trailer) the motor will start having this sensation of ticking or misfiring. It's hard to describe. If I ease off the throttle a bit and then try to increase power smoothly it minimizes the problem. I've just been ignoring it since I don't care to replace the halls or wiring just yet.

It's interesting that the hall wiring fixed your issue rather than the hall itself. Was there a nick in the wire or something? They are really thin wires so I guess they could be damaged inside without necessarily showing damage on the insulation.

I'm now leaning towards throwing my HS into a 20" wheel. I don't think I'll have any issues with overheating if I do that. I should be able to run 88.8v and 65 amps no problem with that setup. Top speed is enough for practical purposes street riding with traffic. Battery capacity is the limiting factor riding at high speed anyway. The acceleration should be awesome in the 20" wheel, 130lbs of thrust, almost double what I have now! :shock:

My area is fairly flat but there are big hills around that I'd like to be able to go up without fear of my motor going up in smoke. The 20" wheel should take care of that. Most of my riding is on roads, sidewalks and paved paths. Commute distance is nil for now, but it was about 9km each way up until recently. My transportation is my bike, so it's more than just a hobby for me.

I've got an 18fet 4110 controller on the way plus 1 kilowatt hour worth of batteries. Now I'm just debating between 24" and 20" wheel to migrate my HS3540 to. Leaning towards the 20". Probably going to run 24" front 20" rear. Will throw up some pictures when everything arrives. :D
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:53 pm

I finally got a cycle analyst! No more range anxiety. Being able to see the battery voltage, amp hours used and instantaneous power is very helpful for getting the most out of my battery pack. Prior to having the cycle analyst I would always cut my rides short for fear of taking the battery down too low.

Seeing the real time power consumption has been illuminating. Power consumption goes up dramatically even on slight uphill grades and accelerating. If not being careful with the throttle it's so easy to ride very inefficiently.

The current limiting feature is nice with some tweaking of the settings. However the speed limiting setting so far has been very jerky. It's like the power goes off when the limit is reached and then it goes back on again at high power draw, not efficient at all. I was hoping the speed would be held steady at a low power draw like cruise control, but I suppose that's not the same thing.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby sn0wchyld » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:44 pm

electr0n wrote:I finally got a cycle analyst! No more range anxiety. Being able to see the battery voltage, amp hours used and instantaneous power is very helpful for getting the most out of my battery pack. Prior to having the cycle analyst I would always cut my rides short for fear of taking the battery down too low.

Seeing the real time power consumption has been illuminating. Power consumption goes up dramatically even on slight uphill grades and accelerating. If not being careful with the throttle it's so easy to ride very inefficiently.

The current limiting feature is nice with some tweaking of the settings. However the speed limiting setting so far has been very jerky. It's like the power goes off when the limit is reached and then it goes back on again at high power draw, not efficient at all. I was hoping the speed would be held steady at a low power draw like cruise control, but I suppose that's not the same thing.


check the manual for the ca... its something to do with how fast it reacts to your speed. ramp down that time, and it will react slower, enabling it to hold your speed 'smoothly-er'.
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Yeah I saw that there are some settings to tweak which is nice. I'm still messing around with it. I'm running a 40 amp controller and I turned the amp limit down to 15 and set the throttle to 1.68v to limit the max power and top speed at full throttle. Those settings work very well to extend range and tame the power when pulling my kid in a trailer.
electr0n
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Re: Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Postby electr0n » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:28 am

I've exceeded my stated goal of 40mph max. I've now got a top speed of 50mph and I'm pretty much at the limits of this motor without modifying it for better heat dissipation.

I've got an 18 fet lyen controller on the bike now, 3 speed switch and half twist throttle. After switching controllers and replacing a partially melted anderson connector on one of the phase wires my stuttering problem is gone. I've had the bike up to 88.8v nominal at 35 to 37 amps. The performance at this power level is a lot of fun. The motor does get quite hot after a brief 10 to 15 minute ride so I'm trying to be careful. I want to pick up a thermometer and maybe drill out the side covers. I'm just not too excited about pulling the stator out for fear of damaging something.

The 3 speed switch is very handy. I can already limit the throttle via the cycle analyst but it's nice being able to do it with the flick of a switch. I'm not sure if I like the half twist throttle. I find it hard to hold a certain speed compared with the thumb throttle.

Here's how the bike looks now. Pretty standard stuff. I have the batteries in two separate handlebar bags. One bag sits on a pair of right angle brackets which are hose clamped to the fork. The other bag sits on top and is velcro strapped to the handle bars. I've got a strap from an old backpack holding the bottom bag on the brackets and an additional stretchy velcro strap for additional support. This setup works very well. The bike still handles quite good. Steering is not affected aside being a little stiffer to turn due to the weight. Nothing bounces around and the cheap front suspension is not affected much either.

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electr0n
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Posts: 424
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:09 am

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