My ultra-sufficient semi-recumbent tricycle project

update 04-04-2012

oh
hi

If you're looking to go about building a motorcycle disguised as a bicycle you're in the wrong thread.
My goal is anti-thesis to the somewhat-normal bicycle build on ES


My intention is to use a similar two-motor system as I used on my EMoto Trike which came equipped with a front geared-hub motor and rated for 250w. As the EMoto Trike is a standard delta sit-up-high tricycle, it's very unstable when doing sharp turns.
As such the designers of the EMoto saw fit to limit its' top speed to 8 MPH which is (in that Martha Stewart voice) "a good thing"
After riding it around town I rapidly discovered the Trike lacked *any* hill climbing ability. bogging down on the slightest slope. And folks, where I live there's LOTS of slopes. Some slopes slope-ier than other slopes.
So after some thought, considering the limitations of an upright delta tricycle I decided to add an additional motor.
The front motor for normal operation and the additional motor for climbing slope-ier slopes
I use a pedalec 'throttle' for the front motor and a half-twist throttle that came with the EMoto but reassigned to the other motor's controller.
This has proven to be an excellent solution when using a geared hub motor that's just sufficient for operation on flats and climbing moderate hills with 2-8% grades thereabouts.

now-I also intend to build a roof of 4watt solar cells and enclose the whole trike in a structure of fiberglass tubing covered by a coroplast/vinyl bodywork.
-this part of the project is dependent upon weather for a completion date, as the work will have to be done on my (outside) pic-a-knic table

I purchased a Belize Tri-Rider Semi-Recumbent Comfort Tricycle (try saying toy toy toy out loud really really fast) via the Jazzysports online vendor (so... jazzed)
I suggest no one should buy this Belize piece of work unless you're willing to invest the time, effort and money needed to turn it into a semi-viable vehicle. I did but my needs are different than the below average remotely healthy individual.
I suggest the Terratrike Rover with an 8 speed hub as a suitable 'economy model' base trike, if you want to pursue such a project, but I lack the physical dexterity needed to operate that particular model or any 'real' recumbent bike or trike.

From what I've experienced, using a pedalec-controlled front hub motor fed it's own battery and a 'hills-only' motor fed from a different battery begets a very efficient electric-powered vehicle.
Doing some research for a different reason I stumbled on the fact that there is a saturation of solar panels and cells in today's marketplace, and (unlike gasoline) has depressed prices to 'cheaper than the batteries they feed' ...
However, for use on a tricycle meant for bike lanes and such means narrower (and lighter) than what I can find manufactured, so I'm having to build my own panel(s).
Building your own solar panel is currently NOT less expensive than buying pre-built panels (just like building your own e-bike isn't cheaper than just buying one)


The solar panel is not something I'm looking forward to building, as the roof size is calculated to be 30-something inches by 6 1/2 feet long x 2 panels
I estimate the panels should produce about 125 *real* watts (peak rating of some 330 watts worth of cells)
I intend to use this vehicle to regularly cruise 25 miles one-way but I only intend to carry a 36V@15AH battery for the front motor and a 36v@5AH battery for 'dem hills'

oh
and no cad from me
sorry
I had to use various cad systems for work from 1985 up until I retired and realized how much I don't miss it.(i.e- no fun no joy I ain't doing it no mo')
+it's too simple a project to bother with

...anywhoo this project is currently calculated (with me occupying the seat) @ 375lbs thereabouts
-will update this thread as I receive the various parts and successfully attach them

comments are always welcomes even I forgets to properly acknowledge them
- hey- I'm old and forgetful- and basically :? confused, as old people are known for being.
oh
and jokes are fine, too

Sounds cool, but personally I'd just leave the solar panels off.

At least you have the size about right to put a few hundred wh in a day. Mabye as much as 600wh. Little point in carrying something dinky.

Like the dual motor idea, using a gearmotor for hill assist.

My wife rides one and loves it. It is extremely stable in corners and with front wheel hub drive it works fine. She has a 9C on the front. It does have loads of room for a mid-drive and I have considered making it a tilt with the rear frame on bearings. Unfortunately she wants no part of the tilter. Great trike and not as heavy once you put power on it.
otherDoc

Sounds like an ambitious project! Most of the offerings from that company are really heavy though.

Love the dual motor idea. If it was mine though, I'd spend the money/weight on more batteries, rather than the solar option. Unless your just looking for a reason to build a sun shade.

Also, no offense, but I hate the HPV term for recumbents. Reminds me to much of an STD.

hey dogman

why the solaR??
the solar panel idea chooses the trike chooses the solar panel... etc :lol:

I use a 200W solar panel and know how much power it produces- for about two years ran my whole life off it's output... been in operation since 2007.
I've noted this
Sadly it's as much about total battery capacity as it is PV output on a stand-alone solar power system.(costs more)
I currently have 9kW of Pb battery capacity on it. (most of the batteries are over 5 years old and some are failing)

While looking up some other info about some other person's solar trike idea (somewhere in this forum) I realized 'building 'yer own' solar panels has become really REALLY inexpensive, like, less than 40 cents per watt. My 2007 PV panel(s) was about $4 per watt.
...So HD trike (which in many ways is kinda overboard) was chosen to support the panel; not the other way around.
-otherwise I'd get something along the lines of a terratrike...

My current 'ride' is a mechanically POS highest qualarey machine hand built by underpaid factory workers and overpaid robots. Standard delta trike.
It came with a dinky geared front hub motor.
The electrics are fine... very nicely put together and I really like the battery mount system.
In fact compared to the mechanics , the electrics are GREAT (in a frosted flakes mascots' voice)

I normally check bikes before I ride (tires,dropouts,brakes) but this is the first machine I've owned that required actual fixin' most every day.
But It's fine for local shopping with my added 'extra motor' it climbs any hill effortlessly.
however
...when I rode it for almost 5 hours (well, with pauses) I ended up with two realizations:

Realization #1- I needed new athletic supporters
Realization #2- no matter how comfortable a wedgey seat is, there still comes that time pointing you to Realization #1

SO...

I wanna a comfy chair.

I want something I can ride in the rain (although this year's been very good for riding -mit out wetness- *knocks on wood*)

I wanna use this 'solar-assisted-electric-assisted tricycle' for long-range travel along the the mighty 101... I don't wanna be begging AC "Please, Kind Sir, May I Plug In?" (might be a song title in thar, which was my other hobby)

...and I don't have to be anywhere- I'm retired and living by myself.
This is for *fun*... And shopping/collecting mail on rainy days.
*my idea of 'fun' is all about travel and traveling at a slow pace suits me just fine)

that's why the solaR (*tm* by somebody I'm sure)

docnjoj said:

My wife rides one and loves it. It is extremely stable in corners and with front wheel hub drive it works fine. She has a 9C on the front. It does have loads of room for a mid-drive and I have considered making it a tilt with the rear frame on bearings. Unfortunately she wants no part of the tilter. Great trike and not as heavy once you put power on it.
otherDoc

Click to expand...

(Note: not to be confusing, but I was at this time considering purchasing a Sun USS HD delta trike and my comments are based on this assumption)

Thanks for the review as there aren't any to be found on the interwebbies.
My local dealer isn't interested in stocking one because he got 'stuck' with one for quite some time... somebody did eventually buy it. (rats)

Tilting isn't something I would consider because I have a severe lack of tools for doing anything other than buying things and putting them on
oh, and speed isn't my concern. GOOD brakes however... :lol:

corkscrew said:

Sounds like an ambitious project! Most of the offerings from that company are really heavy though.

Love the dual motor idea. If it was mine though, I'd spend the money/weight on more batteries, rather than the solar option. Unless your just looking for a reason to build a sun shade.

Click to expand...

:thumbs up: sunshade and not being in any hurry means I not worry whether the batteries are fully charged... other than checking the power meter(s)...finding a road in the sun...all that jazz

Also, no offense, but I hate the HPV term for recumbents. Reminds me to much of an STD.

Click to expand...

:lol: I hate the term too... which is why I used it in the subject title as I'm into dark humor

the 'home built' solar panel is the 'ambitious part' Lots of soldering
...but everything else I've done before, none of which requires too much thought other than the price one pays

This looks like a good approach,

http://www.ecofriend.com/entry/eco-bikes-pannon-rider-solar-powered-bike-saves-you-from-harsh-weather/

Still waiting for someone to review one of these. I think I know what they will say, but they are inexpensive,

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/recumbent.htm

motomech said:

This looks like a good approach,

http://www.ecofriend.com/entry/eco-bikes-pannon-rider-solar-powered-bike-saves-you-from-harsh-weather/

Click to expand...

looks pretty spiffy... about 1/2 the PV cells I think are needed.
Most, if not all of the 'solar-powered' thingies' I've seen or researched have been grossly under-powered with hardly enough cells to to power and recharge the battery. except in a *very* sunny location...uhm...like a desert... or California's central valley solar challenge vehicles are not included because they do work except the no-holds/semi-unlimited budget applies not to me
In my real-world situation there's lots of shaded areas -known for its' BIGGER trees
...so my calculations/assumptions are based on 'where I lives' i.e PV-supported battery recovery is kinda important as is running the motor(s).

Still waiting for someone to review one of these. I think I know what they will say, but they are inexpensive,

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/recumbent.htm

Click to expand...

You'd think that something that's been on the market since 2004 might have a review or two... or at least someone saying "hey. Look what I bought"
(runs off to see what's online)

*edit*
HAHA nothing! average comment "I wouldn't buy that because blah blah blah"

doesn't matter as I already know using a delta recumbent would be easier to work motors into... and I still see no reason not to go with what I already know works for high-efficiency so I'm staying the course I've set for myself
except it'd be nice to not have to spend so much for the trike... maybe the teratrike IS an option to further research :lol:

hmm....

after many hours of searching
and unanswered e-mails
I'm just gonna assume the cyclone recumbent trike(s) don't exist ...but it did somewhat appeal to me (the dual-motor version)

The Sun HD is still on the top of my list but I HATE the thought of buying a machine where I immediately have to buy different parts for it.
In this case the crank arm length is WAY too long for a recumbent.
+ I love it... I finally read Sun's linked review for the trike and in my estimation the reviewer held a pretty low opinion of his trike.

The Terrtrike Rover also has way too long crank arms but they've yet to answer my query about providing shorter ones.

WTF- even the 2007 ezips had multiple positions drilled and tapped on the crank arms for pedal placement!

This looks like an ambitious project. From a mechanical point of view this can be done. I'm not sure about how much you can get from the solar panel. I'm not qualified to say. However due to the advanced level of doing the build and because "Tilting isn't something I would consider because I have a severe lack of tools for doing anything other than buying things and putting them on". Also, do all the work on a picnic table? I think many tools will be required and some dedicated dry space will make a better build. Nonetheless, I wish you luck and sucess.

Quote-"after many hours of searching
and unanswered e-mails
I'm just gonna assume the cyclone recumbent trike(s) don't exist ...but it did somewhat appeal to me (the dual-motor version)"

Yeah, I looked long and hard and couldn't find anything either.
Baffling, and disappointing.
I fully expected them to have Chinese "crappy" build issuses, but at those prices I could deal with re-welding the frame, replacing the hardware, etc.

A recumbent trike with a cyclone motor exists, probably lots of them do.

See: http://www.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4266

-Warren.

I believe that the Cyclone Trike and the motors are made in Tiawan and probably have a higher level of quality than some Chinese stuff.
otherDoc

ebent said:

This looks like an ambitious project. From a mechanical point of view this can be done. I'm not sure about how much you can get from the solar panel. I'm not qualified to say.

Click to expand...

I've been pretty successful using a 200watt system (peak-rating- I only ever saw the peak rating at 10000' above sea level)

However due to the advanced level of doing the build and because "Tilting isn't something I would consider because I have a severe lack of tools for doing anything other than buying things and putting them on". Also, do all the work on a picnic table? I think many tools will be required and some dedicated dry space will make a better build. Nonetheless, I wish you luck and sucess.

Click to expand...

:lol: I've built many things using the most basic tools, but building a frame for a trike with a tilting feature IS out of my 'tool' range.
I divested myself of all my large and specialty tools 5 years ago and have no intention of wanting to replace any of the kit.
If it can't be built with a hammer and a saber saw I ain't doing it! I've built many a thing using just a hammer and a saber saw- they just end up looking a bit , uhm, ghetto but looking bad/working badly don't equate.
I do have a plethora of drills including hammer drills and impact tools and the bits that make these do real work.
I will likely procure a belt sander for shaping and cleaning up cut ends and a small router to use with my millends (hard to guide a hand drill with a millend mounted :lol
I'm in no hurry. It takes me an hour or so to assemble all the bits I need to work outside and about the same amount of time to put things away. (folding tables for the win!)

I do yearn for a shop space but I live in a motorhome- a SMALL motorhome at that!
*looks around* nope-no room for a shop
I do have a 'shed' for protecting things from the elements... It's just not large enough to work in.

motomech said:

Quote-"after many hours of searching
and unanswered e-mails
I'm just gonna assume the cyclone recumbent trike(s) don't exist ...but it did somewhat appeal to me (the dual-motor version)"

Yeah, I looked long and hard and couldn't find anything either.
Baffling, and disappointing.
I fully expected them to have Chinese "crappy" build issuses, but at those prices I could deal with re-welding the frame, replacing the hardware, etc.

Click to expand...

docnjoj said:

I believe that the Cyclone Trike and the motors are made in Tiawan and probably have a higher level of quality than some Chinese stuff.
otherDoc

Click to expand...

www.recumbents.com said:

A recumbent trike with a cyclone motor exists, probably lots of them do.

See: http://www.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4266

-Warren.

Click to expand...

What may have existed before seems to have vanished
Warren -You might check the first link in that post... for me it 404's
Other links go nowhere or provide no contact information (always helpful, that)

My inquiry to Cyclone remains unanswered, but we'll see.... They seem to lack distributors in North America willing to import these machines (if they ARE available)
-might be a stocking/quantity issue, like having to buy a container-full :lol:
*notes* -I did see a German manufacturer/distributor with machines looking remarkably similar to Cyclones' offering

Try: http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/e4.html

www.recumbents.com said:

Try: http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/e4.html

Click to expand...

Hey Warren
I saw that also but I was referring specifically to the Cyclone Premiere recumbent.
i.e http://www.cyclone-tw.com/recumbent.htm

I'm still wondering about the mid-drive but I do like the geared-hub motor I currently have (minimal speed.high efficiency)
I am using a currie/united brushed-motor in addition to the geared-hub motor for negotiating steeper climbs.

While the brushed-motor isn't efficient, it's very small, very powerful and doesn't cog (unlike the geared-hub motor)
So my simple, yet effective solution has been using the PAS for the hub motor. I disconnected the grip throttle from the HMs' controller, re-appropriating it for the MY1018 motors' controller.
Really effective, as I only power up the brushed-motor when needed
So...
The brushed-motor has it's own battery/controller/throttle. It drives a freewheel with a 44-tooth chain gear mounted on the rear axle. Both motors take on any hill I've encountered in my location effortlessly (up to about 18% grades where I sometimes ride)

editttted for the right model number of the motor

Just saw this thread. That delta trike is the same one I built that big yellow trailer to push. Top speed was just under 30 MPH and felt good, but I don't like riding that fast and wanted my ride to be legal when away from home. The rear wheels are cambered quite a bit, which helps the cornering, but is also part of why the trike is built so heavy. Mine was the 2006 model, and I think the new ones are even heavier duty.

My daughter-in-law has the trike now and she loves it. It just has an old brushed motor in the front wheel now, running from a 48V 15AH Ping. My son found a set of shorter cranks at the community bike place in Eugene and that made a big difference, but than she is under 5'.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Edit: Here's a link to my trike (before the yellow trailer) from back in 2007 when I first joined the forum:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=703&hilit=delta+trike

(Note: not to be confusing, but I was at this time considering purchasing a Sun USS HD delta trike and my comments are based on this assumption)

Hi Rassy

,,,about that trailer, yes... very scary esp. with the standard-delta!

Since I have those motors I considered cutting one away from its' hub and gearing it down o my more accustomed 8-15 mph speeds; but I lack the proper tools. Having it done locally would likely cost more than just buying a new low-speed geared motor. (motor work/gears/etc}

...so it goes.

I like my current ride EXCEPT my personal rear-end demands better seating accommodations.

The emoto is quite comfortable for pedaling. The crank arms looks to be about 150mm.
When I first saw them I was thinking "childs bike" but after using them I realized just how much easier it is on my worn-out body parts.
So...
If I get the HD trike, or the terratrike I intend to harvest the cranks from my emoto to reduce my leg extension and knee/hip motion/angle. Being old sux

The HD usx appeals to me for being able to approach the modifications in stages and its' GVW rating.
step 1. install front hub motor from emoto -using new sensorless controller
step 2. ???
step 3. *build/install solar panel and controllers
step 4. Profit

I wanna go to CA and back on an irregular basis but I don't want to carry the batteries needed for the 60-200 mile trips.

*Using 10mm coroplast and carbon tubing supporting PV cells solves most the energy issues Light, Smallish (if one thinks an elephant is smaller than a whale) and most importantly...
kinda cheep.

It's somewhat funny to me how the scale of economics shifts from one extreme to another but always, in the end, costing more.

ok

ordering the usx HD today

the deciding factor
































fixing tires, which I seem to do a lot of these days

lol-I LIE

nobody who could order the trike was at the store
came back another day for the same-same experience

Waiting for the rains to end I mocked up the seating and pedaling angles half-a**ed measured from the manuals/pictures
my *pedals* - a passive exercise machine (motorized assist)
After an hour I could no longer hold my legs in that position, even resting on the pedals

so....

I bought this thing after a few days/nights research


basically uses the same parts my current trike has (lowest-end junk)
But hopefully the axle won't come pre-bent from the factory, which is my one and only issue with my current trike, besides the uncomfortable seat. (no like tractor seats)

The factory/supplier wanted what I considered an outrageous price for the electrification (lol-they basically toss in a 'kit' of the lowest quality e-bike stuff with the order) so I'm considering my options for a high-speed build approaching the speed of sound, or 15mph, whichever comes first.

(edit-t-t-t-ted to emphasize the crap Belize sells at premium prices.)

story time

Ordered the trike through jazzysports- hoot another interesting store name
kept bothering them with "has it shipped yet?" until it shipped- I'm learning new tricks and I'm an old dog
interjection***what's getting to be a normal, yet not right condition to ordering stuff on the internet is to expect things to 'have some issue'
Drop shippers, pretending to have a warehouse, list their items as being 'in stock' when they're usually just guessing (example- emoto purchase)
jazzy listed their shipping methods as FedEx
the trike shipped from the manufacture/distributor in Canada via DHL- no biggy- except the package stopped being tracked when it reached Portland a couple of days ago

So today, while adjusting solar panels my neighbor casually asked if I'd received the trike yet (been 8-9 days since I ordered it)
I replied in my best goofy voice "I dunno" and we both talked about how we'd never seen a DHL delivery truck in this area before
After concluding the pleasantries, what should pull up right in front of my motorhome but a DHL truck (whenever I 'assume' something I am AWAYS proven wrong... in this case It was OK to be wrong)

seems DHL only delivers on Fridays here.

Changing thoughts:
Two days after I ordered the trike I finally received the axle I needed from Emoto
only took 4 months to get it
such is my mojo/karma/luck/whatever...
Like when I bought a new set of wenches because I thought someone had walked with my wench bag
The same day I picked up the new wenches the missing wench bag found me again.

Back to the trike
whatever comments I made about the emoto being a cheep bike with shoddy mechanicals' ( whilst still holding true)
(good welds though)
The Emoto far outshines the Comfort Tri-Rider Semi-Recumbent tricycle (what a stupid name)
-except for the derailleur and shift index thingy
The Tri-Rider Semi-Recumbent tricycle (forever more referred to as the CTRSR, or CRAPTRIKE) uses the finest in childrens' cheap bicycle components
-except the derailleur
The bearings for the fork, bottom bracket and front wheel came pre-assembled and wrenched so tightly as to assure repid destruction shortly after being put into use.
I actually couldn't turn the fork by hand
the front wheel was nice and solidly locked onto it's axle and the crank arms needed, well, nevermind.

less see
single piece crank-check (child-sized to be sure, but I've found I prefer child-sized cranks -it's an old-age thing)
tiny torque washers for the round front axle made of material slightly thicker then foil -check
shoddy assembly instructions -check

My favorite part however, are the assembly instructions (comes even LESS-assembled then the Emoto, which previously was pretty hard to beat for the number of steps taken to assemble a bike/trike)
I stoped reading after, I believe, step 6
step 6- install the handle grips on the handle bar (o...k)
step 7- install first the left, then right brake handles -lucky for me I decided to ignore step 6 since I'll be adding a throttle
I didn't bother with the brake handle part either.
-I might use one handle because it has a 'parking brake' feature I kinda want. Having only one e-brake is ok by me as I always use front and rear brakes by habit
Emoto and CRAPTRIKE share the same rear band brake, which I find to be very strong and reliable... well, reliable once the axle is modified a bit using with an errant hose clamp keeping the brake drum from shifting it's position
The instructions for assembling the seat was non-existent- although they did provide a nice photo and a figure showing the bolt hole locations
A note about the seat- the seat, which is similar to a chair comes un-assembled ('natch) with the seat and back attached with the heaviest chunk of steel imaginable to create the 'chair'
I was fading rapidly by this time so it didn't immediately occur to me that it would be best to assemble this thing while off the tricycle
-hilarious times with me trying my best to align a bolt through the seat bracket, an over-sized threaded nut (used as a spacer- real high-tech stuff here) and the heavy, unwieldy (and very unbalanced) back bracket. Apparently the developer was striving to save the weight of a couple of bolts when designing this contraption)

another note:
I has an aversion to paypal.
really

so
I ordered a geared-front hub motor kit from highertech bicycles in frisco because I'm still awaiting correspondence from cell-man not just about payment but about ANYTHING. (edit-other people seems to be able to sorrespond with this vendor but I was unable too)
he's apparently too busy to check e-mails etc.
By researching site photographs I determined the Emoto's battery could be sourced from MXUS.
I really like the battery package but alas, I'm now forced by circumstance (and a rapidly diminishing budget) to build my package using R/C LiPo purchased from Hobby King
lucky for me I've yet to purchase a faulty 5s Turnigy pack, but now I'll need four-six more. and more battery chargers etc.
My tests using the MAX 80 battery charger with solar panels is successful, except HK (usa warehouse) is currently out of stock
One of HK's 50w chargers shares the attributes as the MAX 80... except it's 50w and I'm really cutting it close using 3 or 4 80w units, so I'll wait.

ATM the whole solar-powered idea is not going to come together as I want- at least I could upgrade my existing panels with the *much* higher output cells- I believe (by actual tests) I will double the MH (Motor Home) panels' wattage in the same space the current panels exist in.
and finally
eventually I'll have an EMoto trike up for sale with a NEW COMPLETE REAR END LOL- they couldn't be bothered sending only the axle and bearings so they sent the complete assembly; which is, ok

(edited for lack of anything better to do)

assembled the seat and mounted it on the trike.
needs 2 longer bolts then what was supplied but it's too late and I'm too whipped.

Not really knowing where the seat supports needed to be I set them at the '1 up from lowest' position.
I'm a little short of 6' but not by much.
I sat in the seat, placed my feet on the pedals and realized the seat needs lowering, possibly lower then the rear support is manufactured to go.
-Funny how the Emoto had to have the seat/handlebars raised to their highest positions to accommodate my body.

not impressed. This thing wasn't designed as much as picking pieces of parts that 'looked' like they would work, sticking them in a box and calling it a tricycle, err,... a Tri-Rider Comfort Semi-Recumbent 20/24 tricycle. (The colors match, however)

Sometimes I get the feeling I be digging the hole, tossing my money in it and starting a LiPo fire.

I now fit the trike .

Have to make a new back support bracket (hello painted wood)
'tis a purple people seater