Which motor set up????

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: Which motor set up????

Postby miro13car » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:46 pm

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Last edited by miro13car on Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Which motor set up????

Postby spiritxxx733t » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:45 am

hi

@miro13car

to be fair to papamotor RuggedRiderAUS had said the motor itself is good and the battery is excellent too, also he has said that he dropped the bike a few times, and has also ridden it off road a few times.. I think alot of kits would have same problems here if that was to happen..

also its not fair to be so judgemental on the kit when the price of the motor, controller, parts is under £250.. so your really paying for a top of the line Ping battery..

the better quality motors like bmc or crystalyte are normally around double that price and that is just for the motor alone.

thats my 2 cents...

@ ruggesrideAus.. I am actually thinking of buying the kit from ebikedeal.com as per your suggestion.. do you have experience of this seller?

what do you think of the crystalyte apm display.. its looks nicer than the cycle analyst?

I noticed your controller is sensorless, how would you compare this with sensored kit, are they just as good, is the shudder that nearly everyone talks about exaggerated or is it really quite noticeable at low speeds? any other comments on the parts from ebikedeal.com would be appreciated and also what are your thoughts on the bmc v4 motor.. in terms of reliability and quality, speed and so on..

many thanks
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Re: Which motor set up????

Postby RuggedRiderAUS » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:28 am

Hey ya spiritxxx733t.

Yeah. PapaMotor's not ALL Bad. There's a lot of good and the price is a lot cheaper than the higher end kits. That's what motivated me in the first place. It's just the details in the parts that are a big problem and I've had to replace or upgrade a lot of them. But like I said. Thicker stator than the 9C or MXUS I also own. That surprised me and made me think they did some thing right.

About EBikeDeal: I've talked to the guy who's runs EBike deal. His name is Max. He kept me on the phone for an hour! Telling me about his opinions on stuff and answering my questions. Great Guy! Very passionate about Ebikes and top notch info and customer help. Recommend giving him a call as well if you want to know his options about his parts, kits, SensorLESS vs SENSORED or the AMP Display.

Yes I think the AMP Display looks nicer as well. The only problem is AMP Display is proprietary technology and they don't release the specs of it. That means: It only works with Crystalye Controllers. Which I have no experience with, know nothing about except they're suppose to be "Good".. But not the "Best". They also cost about the same as a LYEN Controller and LYEN's are the BEST! Well understood, Lyen has great Customer Service, he'll fix 'em for you, they're already "UPGRADED" in some ways, will work with the CA but NOT the AMP. So IMO. Don't bother with the AMP or the "Crystalye Controller". The CA and LYEN's Controllers are compatible with everything (that isn't proprietary/hidden technology). Their's no mystery how they work and lots of documentation. The only prob you might have is you might have to install your own connections. Like the Throttle might be an "Innie" instead of an "Outtie". But Lyen gives you Extra connectors with your controller if you have to replace the connectors to make them compatible. This is VERY EASY!! Don't let this scare you off. Knowing how do these simple things and not being scare of them with save you time and hassle in the future. Like LYEN's controller came with Simple Phase Connectors. Bullet Type. I replaced them with Andersons that were color coded. They attach better, are color coded, won't short out against each other and overall I just TRUST them not to fail or give me hassle later. Many people are here have done the same thing. Lots of pics I'm sure you'll find.

You're right.. I was a little rough on the kit. My name is "RuggedRider" after all! And they never told me not to! lulz.. I didn't understand the system or it's limitations at the time. So I took the trails and had a GREAT TIME! Little did I know.. Not such a good idea.. The kit was a lot less bullet proof than I thought. And the wires that come outta the axle are a horrible idea. I'll never buy a motor that has that feature again! That's why I recommend you don't either. This just my opinion though. I can back it up on the reasons why this is a Bad Idea and if any motors have this feature. They should be avoided.

Reasons:
1. Bike falls over = Choped Wires
2. Chaffing of wires down the axle with already bad wiring can lead to shorting or failure over time.
3. Axle has less strength being hollow
4. Harder to upgrade phase wires later.

BMC v4 Motor - Suppose to be the BEST GEARed Hub Motor on the Market. I hear the MACs are cheaper and just about as good. DogMan on here likes them more than the BMC for the Price and how they are well understood.
I don't own a GEARed Motor. DD (Direct Drive) Motors are suppose to be more reliable. I hear people upgrading the Plastic Gears to Metal ones in these kits after the Gears turn to "Peanut Butter" from not being gentle on them. I don't like either Design though cause they still have the wiring exiting from the axle which I think is silly idea when there are alternatives to it. Look at the Crystalye and the CroMotor - Do they have Wires coming out of a Hollow axle?? Nope..

SensorLESS vs SENSORED - I go SensorLESS now because the HALLs in my PapaMotor Hub died and the Motor wouldn't work. So going SensorLESS brought my Motor back to life. And since it was a LYEN. I had more features that were useful: Regen Breaking, being able to program it, run more amps though it if I want, their's a place for a CA on it as well. AMP won't work though for a LYEN. If you want you AMP or CA to tell you the SPEED. I think it needs to be SENSORED.
So SensorLESS is a Great BackUp Solution or a Problem preventer. I hear some controllers have a switch that enables you to switch between the 2. LYEN's doesn't do that.
Shutter - Not an issue, hardly notice it, not a problem, don't worry about it. Start up a steep hill from a stand still at a complete stop and you'll notice it. One small kick start forward and then the throttle and you're golden.

I know you're trying to set up this kit on a budget (like all of us are) so instead of buying everything NEW. Look in the used Section and try to buy a USED Crystalye in your area. Buy it in your local area = less shipping costs. And the motor IS the HEAVY Part of the Kit. So you could at least buy that part used and save on shipping.
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Re: Which motor set up????

Postby spiritxxx733t » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:38 am

hey man,

thanks for the reply again,your really helpful here.. because I am totally new to e bikes.. I want to make sure I get a kit that is ultra reliable and does not cost me lots of additional money to change parts..

my commute is around 6,000 miles per year, thats around 10 miles per day to work and back and also coming home for lunch an additional 10 miles so in all 20 miles x 5, plus also weekend errands an additional 15 miles..

having a car is quite costly so the main reason to go e biking is to save lots of money..

because of my high yearly mileage I need something very reliable..

I have been in contact with ebikedeal.com, thanks for introducing me to him, he seems like a very passionate guy and gives alot of information out..

so yes if I went for the direct drive then Id definitely buy it from Max,

I was also interested in the bmc v4 kit and have been in contact with Illia, who also seems like a very passionate guy, the only thing that worries me about the geared kit is that the gears would need to be replaced every 5000 - 10,000 miles.. even if you were very gentle and used a medium powered battery and amps like the ping 48 v 15 ah.. the gears still would need replacing at maximum 10,000 miles, so thats like under two years for me.. more additional costs...

I like the geared motor for its free-wheeling and low weight and good torque, it seems the more efficient way to ride, but comes at a higher cost..

the DD motors seem to be reliable and longer lasting so cost wise I guess it makes more sense to go for the DD..

I know you mentioned the lyen controller as the best, this is offered by Illia for the BMC, but Max has the crystalyte 4110 fet one.. he may be able to get the lyen controller, I guess I should ask him.. what do you think of teh crystalyte controller offered by Max, is its good enough, reliable, powerful and so on..( just lyen is better)

Im not really interested in regen braking, just ultimate reliability and good speed, pref near 30 mph or so....

from what Max said and what you are saying I guess sensorless is the way to go..

oh because I live in england it is very difficult to buy a cystalyte or even bmc motor, as there are strict laws in england that limit e bikes to a max speed of 16 mph..

and the guys who do sell higher speed motors tend to over charge..

take this guy for example, alien bikes..

http://www.alienbikes.co.uk/page16.htm

he wants £700 plus shipping that is in USD $1142 for a 20 mph 350 watt bafang geared motor ( including battery - that can only has cycles of maximum 500 ) I mean what a rip off.. now.. now you know why they call it RIP OFF BRITAIN.. lol

the cycle apm is being offered at $60 by max, so I think I will go for this, I think it does work for sensor less motors as Max is very fond of sensor-less motors, but I will ask Max to double check this..

by the way with your DD motors do you notice a slight resistance, if your peddaling without power that is, apparently this is known as cogging and only DD motors have this issue..

the shipping cost from Max is at $140 and Illia ( bmc kit) at $90 but the total price is still over $100 cheaper from MAx..

decsions, decsions,..

thanks again dude
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Re: Which motor set up????

Postby RuggedRiderAUS » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:52 pm

Maybe you should go an All-in-One Kit from Max hey. All the Parts will work together, it seems to be in your price range, and the Parts will be Almost Top of the Line Parts - IMO. I'm sure you'll get great after support from Max as well. I wonder if he does replacement parts like PapaMotor? lol.. I bet you won't run into those issues. Max supposedly has been riding the Kits for Years and never has a problem. I think he's even on YouTube Riding some Crystalyes with a friend comparing the Torque Version vs. the Speed version.

About Cogging. It's not really an issue for me personally. I guess it could be a slight annoyance if you ran outta battery. But other than that, it's just not really something you think about or notice while riding.

Yeah.. I do think SensorLESS is more reliable. Only having to deal with 3 Phase Wires instead of 8 with the 5 Halls. You could just go a SENSORED Controller with the Halls and if they ever break get a LYEN SensorLESS later as a back-up. If ya wanted to get use outta your Sensors and see what they're all about. Also.. If you decide to go SensorLESS from the get go.. You mind as well just buy the Sensored motor and use it SensorLESS. It's only like $5-10 more and will have a higher re-sale value if you decided to sell it if the Halls still work. Just givin' ya info man.

Ebikes should save ya heaps of money and be fun for ya man. I think you're going to dig it.
Glad I talked ya outta PapaMotor. I imagine their stuff would be Ebay quality. Never bought a Hub Motor off Ebay but it seems pretty generic.

I think the kit should take you the speeds and range you're looking.
Good luck on you're build man. Post some pics when ya get it all put hey.
I'm in the process still of adding new vids to my YouTube account about my PapaMotor Build, things I've learned and some the creative ways I've fixed and rigged things.
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