Which motor set up????

Paul T

10 mW
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
I want to put together a 1000 to 1500watt ebike with a rear wheel set up. Has anyone used Papa motor products? Chinese company offcourse that make their own hub motors and kits and use Ping LifePo4 batteries. They seem very helpful in email contact. They state some quite impressive figures such as 55kph and 45km range without peddling using a 48v 15ah battery. So my choice is the Papa motor set up or a 9 continent hub motor set up using a 48v10ah battery and 1500watts from just interstate from where I live here in Brisbane Oz. They state the 48v 10ah will get about 15 to 20km range without peddling and 50kph hopefully, does 5ah make that much difference doubles the range? which should I get? thanks for any input :D
 
Hmmm never heard of them, do you have any specs for the motors?

Be hard to know if they are worth looking at with out some data. :)
 
Yes rojitor thats the place, I cant seem to get a quality 15ah 48v battery anywhere, the place here in Oz selling the 9C motor kit supplies a headway 48v 10ah battery, 15 to 20km range up to 40 if peddling so they say. the Amp hrs dont affect the performance do they thats the volts right? amp hrs are how big your tank is, range? Ping batteries are rated at 1c the head ways 5c the c rating is how good the cells are correct, the higher the c ratring the better quality?
 
Paul T said:
Yes rojitor thats the place, I cant seem to get a quality 15ah 48v battery anywhere, the place here in Oz selling the 9C motor kit supplies a headway 48v 10ah battery, 15 to 20km range up to 40 if peddling so they say. the Amp hrs dont affect the performance do they thats the volts right? amp hrs are how big your tank is, range? Ping batteries are rated at 1c the head ways 5c the c rating is how good the cells are correct, the higher the c ratring the better quality?
Amps do affect the performance, ah is the fuel tank and c rating is the discharge speed of a battery, 10 ah battery at 1c will deliver 10 amps at 3c will be 30 amps and so on. Usually below 30 amps is too low for a 1000w motor to wake up no matter how many volts you use. Ping batteries are good enough in most cases. I invite you to read the faq area http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26621
 
Range and speed claims to be cut in half, as usual. 20 mph range is as much as 30 miles. 25 mph range is 22 miles.

34 mph? Riiiiiiiight.

As usual check the actual words that they say. Range x miles, Speed x miles per hour. But they definitely do NOT say range AT such and such speed.

Not sure which winding they are selling, but a 2806 winding would get closer to 34 mph on s 48v ping, Close enough to do it once, downhill or with a tailwind. 27 mph is normal top speed for a 2807 winding at 48v. At that speed, about 20 miles range is possible.

Looks like a fine kit, but the usual bogus ad copy leaves me with a definite urge to say get it elsewhere.
 
also the Ping battery website says that their 48v 15ah batteries are for up to 800w motors 600w recomended, papa motor says nah they are conservitive estimates and the Ping battery will do up to 1500watts. Really???? I could spend more than twice the ping battery and pick up a 48v 15ah LiFePo4 battery with a 15c ratting but is that overkill? I really dont need a battery that good?
 
For a typical kit with 20 amp controller, 15 ah is the smallest recomended size for a pingbattery, or similar lifepo4. Often a 20 amp controller is in fact set to 22 amps. Real world wattage on such a controller and 48v battery is 1200w, but it's only for a moment. As the bike starts to roll, watts drops to 800-1000w.

I have a few hundred cycles on mine, with no issues yet. Riding less lately, the battery is nearly two years old. Pretty much 90% WOT riding. 800w continuous doesn't faze a 15 ah ping unless a bad cell is present in the pack.

If you get a 36v battery, spring for the 20 ah. Still pretty easy to make a box for and carry. 48v 20 ah is just too big to fit in a frame triangle, or carry high on a rear rack.

The 48v 15 ah ping will get you at least 20 mile range WOT (25-30mph) if no monster hills, stops every block, or headwinds.

The main reason to get a higher c rate battery would be to use a 40 amp controller, or to carry a smaller and lighter battery to use on rides under 10 miles distance. If you need the range, and use a 20 amp controller, it's very hard to beat the reliablility, safety, and convenience of the pingbattery. If you get the 5 amp charger upgrade, a 48v 15 ah ping will charge nearly full in 3 hours. Fast enough charging to extend range to nearly infinite, or till your ass is begging for you to stop.
 
Thanks dogman, some awesome info there, the controller Im looking at is a 45A the A is for Amps? Ive decided on the 9 continent because its a name brand and matching controller, I can get the battery from these people in Melbourne too but only a 48v10ah but I think the C rating is like 5, better than the pings, so puts the Ping out because of the low C ratting? but then Papa motor runs the Ping battery and their controllers are 35A I think. You need a high amp contorller to pull the watts out of the motor right? oh I get a bit confused :oops: Where can I get a normal LIthium not a LiFePo4? they are much smaller and lighter are they not than the LiFePo4? the C rating on the LiFePo4 batteries from this other mob is like 15 to 30c but they are twice the price of the Pings and weigh a bit over 10kgs.
 
I've just recently bought a Papa Motor set up. 48v 1000w Hub Motor with 48v 15ah Ping Battery.
Motor is powerful and silent. Battery works awesome. The kit came all in one and for $1200 all up and shipped. Not bad.
The bad was some of the components that came with it. On arrival, one of the bearings was out and had to ask for a replacement. Wonderful top notch customer service and free shipping on the replacement part! They actually sent me 2 new Hub Motor Covers with 2 extra Bearing instead of 1. Nice touch.
The cables that lead to the motor get hot and melt stuff around them. Like the plastic bag I have there to help waterproof the controller and the wiring. The cord itself is melted in some places. Besides that. Hub motor and Ping Batt are strong and fast combo for my Narco Storm 29er.
Clip on rack was aluminum and broke after 2 weeks of use from the heavy battery even if position as far towards the seat as possible (less leverage).
And one of the most disappointing things is the Rim. The Rim started to lose spoke nipples in side of itself and 4 spokes were broke by the end of the month. I did take it off road some times and it doesn't have rear suspension, only front. That could of had some thing to do with it. But very cheap/bad rims! Going to ride until they break then re-spoke it into some higher quality ones.
Hope that sheds some light on Papa Motor and the E-Bike Kits. Wasn't able to find a review before I purchased. Hope this will give some one a better info if they ever decide to purchase though them.
 
UPDATE: Hall Sensors on the 48v PapaMotor Kit have gone out. Either that or something is wrong with the Controller. Either way, my advice is to buy Higher Quality Parts from Multiple places and make sure the components have names and specs!

Like I don't know what the name or the specs are for either the Motor they shipped me or the Controller. I guessing the motor's like a 9C from the pictures or just a normal cheap Chinese run of the mill kit.

Same with the Controller.. Run of the Mill Cheap Chinese and no specs. You could probably piece the kit together with the same parts from different places for cheaper.

I've hear some people on here say: "Buy Cheap, Buy Twice." I'm feeling that is true.. The only thing really good about the kit is the convenience of being able to order it all together and the Ping Battery. :x

If you don't have a kit yet. Piece it together yourself with High Quality Parts! And avoid these kits unless buying two seems like a viable option for you. :mrgreen:

If I could do it all over again, I would.
 
While you mention it in your previous post, nearly every wheel from a Chinese kit supplier is not spoked tight enough. The spokes and rims themselves are normally OK, but with loose spokes they fail quickly.
ALWAYS CHECK AND TIGHTEN THE SPOKES BEFORE YOU START, otherwise you'll be re-building the wheel before long.
 
The one thing I have to add about my PapaMotor kit is the Hub Motor actually tend to be pretty good. It has a thicker stator than the 9C and the MXUS I own and seems to have a higher top speed! Only main prob with it is the thin phase wires. Upgraded them and it seem to make it even faster!
 
hi,

I am also thinking about buying the papamotor kit..

would you say this kit is reliable?

what is the weakest part in your opinion?

were you able to attach your disc brakes to the motor?

what is the PING battery like?

all in all is it a worthwhile kit?

many thanks
 
hi,
I am also thinking about buying the papamotor kit..
would you say this kit is reliable?
what is the weakest part in your opinion?
were you able to attach your disc brakes to the motor?
what is the PING battery like?
all in all is it a worthwhile kit?

Hey ya spiritxxx733t,

Starting on the first build hey?

PapaMotor's Kits are not bad. I'll explain all the Pros and Cons IMO.

Ping Battery: 5/5 - It's heavier than LIPOs and doesn't pump out the C Rating that they do. But it's Plug and Play Simple and you know you have nothing to worry about.

Papa Motor's Hub Motor: 4/5 - I'll give it 4/5 because it's Stator was Thicker than the MXUS and the 9C I bought used later. So Faster and higher torque. That made me think it wasn't so much of a bad motor after all.

Wires of the motor: Horrible! Esp. the Phase wires. Maybe good for 20-30amps anymore above that and they tend to over heat, ruture, short out, ware out the coverings of them. I'd imagine you'd be replacing them of fixing them a couple months down the line like I did.
Halls: 1/5 - Seem useless to me now looking back. I managed to break them after I severed the cord after the bike fell down in the rain. Cord coming outta the axle = "Snip" when it falls over. With out the halls, I run a sensorless Lyen controller and it's simpler, higher amps and Faster! So 3 wires instead of 8 to worry about. I like the motor sensorless better.
Controller: 2/5 - Seems like cheap run of the mill sensored controller. Low amps, like 30 amps I think. No Regen breaking. No name also = if ya break it on your own to fix it. No documentation. I like Lyen's 12 Fet Sensorless 100x better! Nice thing about it though is it's compatible with the battery bar on the Thumb Throttle or the Twist Throttle and both have on and off safety switches that need the support of the controller also with the connections.
Thumb Throttle and Twist Throttle that come with the Kit: 2/5 - Have extra features that I don't find useful and take up space. Don't like the design of the Twist Throttle either. Thumb Throttle Broke after a couple falls and is reputed to go full "WOT" (Wide Open Throttle/Full Throttle) if it get's wet in the rain.

Break System: 2/5 - The Stopping Power, better than the bike original disk breaks. Noise: Horrible. The caliper design: Horrible. Sits in middle of a square 0 ring that fits around the axle. Is not welded.. So moves to side to side, forwards and backwards. Has to be secured to frame to make the break works and stop the play that causes problems. Gets worse over time as it bends the metal and de-shapes it from stopping.

Rims: 1/5 - Okay for street use. But a couple bumps or hards hits to the tire during riding can break spokes and bend it. Make it outta true. Be gentle. They're cheap Aluminum. Spokes are "Cheap Chinese Pot Metal." Not high quality.
Customer Support: 5/5 - Before and after support is amazing. Can talk to them on Skype about anything and will help out with damaged parts and replacements.

Double Leg Kickstand: 2/5 - Managed to break one of the legs off. They're hollow Alum.

Clip on Rear Rack: 1/5 - Broke after a big bump. Ping Batt is way to heavy for it. Get Cheaper off Ebay.

I think that's about it. The "GOOD" is it's a "All-In-One" Kit. No thinking, no searching, everything works together.
The BAD: The QUALITY. Except the Ping Battery. No Flaws with that at all for me.

If I were you. I'd just go the hard and long way instead and buy things piece by piece. Buy Cheap.. Buy Twice..

Maybe a Ping Batt 48v 15ah, Lyen Controller 12 FET Controller and a Crystalyte Motor from EBikeDeal might be a good start. Don't have any advice on how to get the Breaks going. The Crystalyte Kits prob come with some decent ones.

It will probably work great for a while. But then things will go wrong and you'll have to improvise. So in that case I would say that it's not really reliable. The Set up I described above would be much more "Reliable".

Weakest Parts: Phase Wires and Break Caliper.

Hope that helps you make a decision with the direction you choose. Good luck with your First Build!
 
I think the kit "should" last over a year if you're "gentle". No Major hills and be gentle until for figure out the limits of the motor.
The E-Bike Hub Motors works great when they're cool. Get them hot and it's like a downwards spiral of efficiency. Heat goes up, speed and power go down, amps go up to compensate. Then the first thing to go would be a ruptured wire or wires. Cheap thin chinese wires. Which would then short out and give a "Notchy" Feeling to the wheel. You may think a bearings out if it happens.

This kit is great for the Newbs man. Great Support and ALL-IN-ONE KIT. Also like I said.. Thicker Stator in the Hub Motor Really Impressed me! That's very good. Rare thing to find a motor that's "better" Thicker than some 9Cs.

And if you break it. All you'll need is to either fix the Phase wires, get a Sensorless Controller if you blew the Halls, upgrade the Phase Wires to thicker ones for more AMPS = More Speed and Pick up.

One last thing that went wrong with the kit that I want to save you the pain of.. The TAs. Torque Arms. One one of my first rides the wheel feel outta the drop outs and BROKE the DERAILER. The Bike Frame was a Narco. They have a Alum Derailer screw on piece that is attach to the frame. ie. Not part of the frame. Been going single speed in highest gear since so I didn't have to keep trying to Super Steel Epoxy and JB Weld it back on. Which neither worked very permanently. Both Epoxy's are full of themselves and are not STEEL or WELD LIKE. I hope Doc's DP420 Black will show them up.
So don't expect the TAs they give you to work. You'll have to construct your own better ones to avoid problems.
I have many vids and pics of my build. I'll start uploading and posting so you can see what I first build looks like after everything's broken on it and then been upgraded just enough to work.
You'll need 2 x Thick Steel Bars and a Drill to make better TAs then the ones PapaMotor will end up giving you.
What kind of frame or drop outs do you have on your frame? Post or explain here and we'll give ya advice.

So all in all.. Easy.. But you may have to fix things down the line. You'll learn more that though. What Kit or Voltage set up ya getting? You going for the 48v 1000W?
 
hey man,

thanks again for the quick reply.

so I am going for the 48 V 1000 watt kit, mainly for the battery really..

a few people have said the TA are not that good too, so I thought I would buy the revision 4 TA from ebikes.ca
(http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php) any thoughts on this?


I live in England, I was planning on buying a kit from ebikes.ca but the cost of shipping from ebikes.ca seem crazy I mean to buy a full kit like the ezee or crystalyte, ebikes.ca are quoting a figure of over $300 dollars for shipping alone.. that's crazy right?

the bike I want to convert is a chromoly steel frame, here's a link to it http://www.saracen.co.uk/bikes/2012/trail/kili-cromo-2
p.s I paid £600 for it from another on-line store that sells discounted Saracen and Genesis bikes..

the bike has no rear rack attachments to it, so had to use p clips and seatpost mount adaptor, but this has worked out really well..

the bike has a 10 speed free-wheel/ cassette, will I be able to use my current chain, rear derailleur and gear shifters on the 6 speed freewheel?

can I use my current rear disc brakes mounts/ bracket, I don't plan on buying the disc brakes parts from papamotor, so if the worse comes to the worse and cannot fit it into my current disc brake system, I will simply dis connect the rear brake until I can figure out a way of solving this problem. (probaly not safe, but as long as I ride safely should be ok)

I dont plan on over volting the kit or anything like that but just want to use it as it comes..

Do you still have this kit and use it ? did you have reliability problems with the controller?

I have no idea how to upgrade the phase wire.. we newbs could really do with some of your you-tube vids if you have the time.

Would really like to see as many pics and video as as possible that would be really helpful..

for a future build, maybe a year or 2 down the line, Id like to upgrade to a better motor like a crystalyte or bmc/ ezee geared motor.. have you any experience of these two?

I am certainly no hot rodder and the main issue for me is reliability and just lasting long time without big problems.

the bike is only used for commuting and shopping errands so I will not be going on the trails or doing jumps on the bike..

again thanks for the heads up.. its very useful and helpful

many thanks
 
The Best Upgrading Phase Wire Thread I found:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24547
Might come in handy later.

You're going to HAVE TO Buy the Cheap Disk Breaks and Caliper if you want things to be easy. Your Disk Break and the Mount won't work or fit. If you don't buy them the first time sayin': "I already have disk Breaks. I won't need it." You'll be mistaken and will have to wait more time and pay extra shipping.
You could get away with you own Disk Breaks if you're up to some constructing. Maybe some welding. But you said you wanted it to be easy and want a Plug & Go System more or less. Buy the Disk Break Set! You'll save yourself a headache later. I also use the Disk Break Mount as part of my Ghetto TA set up. This is my first build as well. I'm not a guru. But I figured out how to break and fix everything on a budget in my garage.

This is my YouTube Channell: TrippMan666 and a vid of me fixing my motor after I cut the wires on a fall and killed the halls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiLw2qlOGhY 8)
Check out some of the other vids. That's my bike I used on one vid and some other vids are of me checking the Halls on my motor.

I'll post some more vids and pics to show ya what my PapaMotor Kit Looks like a year later and some of the problems I've had to find solutions to.

Controller: No problems. Didn't break on me. It seems cheap and not high end. I've heard of others with fired controllers on here but didn't happen to me. But I no longer use it because the Halls went and I go Sensorless Now with a LYEN CONTROLLER! Much better. :mrgreen:

Torque Arm Picture Thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26444&start=15 :mrgreen:

Should give ya some ideas. No review on the CA TAs. They should be alright. I'm going with some Dr. Bass TAs though. They look like the best ya can get! And room for upgrades later or more power no probs.

Yes. I still own and used the kit. Everything that hasn't broke that is. Thumb Throttle died. No longer used the TAs from PapaMotor. No longer use controller. Ghetto Upgraded Phase Wires and Harness with Anderson connectors and a couple wire nuts where the Andersons Melted. :?

Speaking of which. Your connectors are sure to melt on the PapaMotor Motor. The Green ones that attach the motor and controller together. They melted bad and need to be upgraded eventually. I'll post pics of those too.
 
I should probably make for own picture thread of my build for these. But I'll start posting what I got here about my 29er PapaMotor Build.

My bike brand new before I installed the Kit on it:
IMG_0410_zps4874b525.jpg


Me starting the build and the conversion process:
IMG_0832_zps6f4e865e.jpg

IMG_0833_zps141bcee3.jpg

Taking off the motor cover because some phase wires were shorting out against each other and I was being fooled it was some thing to do with the bearings for ages.
IMG_0843_zpsc93c3950.jpg

IMG_0844_zpsd769c7f5.jpg

PapaMotor's Disk Break Rotor:
IMG_0839_zps9f02e5bb.jpg

and a pic of PapaMotor's Fuse that I managed to burn out after a year. Only 30amp though. Sent me 2 new fuses for free when I contacted them. Had to pay shipping only. Fuse is up and running again.
IMG_1170_zps2b7dd088.jpg


Those are the PapaMotor pics I have at hand right now. I'll transfer some more vids and pics later for people who are interested in these kits and what parts they come with.
 
What a disaster story - Papamotor
I could not agree more
Buy cheap pay twice
So how much is the kit now after you paid shipping on replaced Parts?
How many other parts you will have to replace
The point is : how much is that kit after all that is fixed
 
Hey ya miro13car. Thanks for chiming in. I agree a what disaster story! Been A LOT of Learning.. But also a lot of complaining about the quality of the parts. :evil:

That is a GREAT Question actually.. I should add up and post all of my recites. :?:

I bought the kit on: June 26th 2012. So I guess I've actually had the kit for under 6 months surprisingly.. Feels like a year I've done so much to it.

I purchased the entire Kit from PapaMotor with a couple extras included + shipping included for $1,156USD. See pic. Don't recommend the Quick Release Rack for $67. Rip-off. Get it off Ebay or DealExtreame for $30-$40 and a recommend a Regular Rack and not a Quick Release Rack. The Quick Release Rack broke after I went over a curb and would slip around and would have to re-adjust it after each ride.
Double Legged Kickstand is Hollow Alum. One leg broke. Get a better one that's a solid piece of metal or Alum and not hollow. Had friend weld a new leg back on after the first leg broke.

I bought the Horrible Disk Breaks later after I found out my Original Disk Breaks wouldn't work for $65USD Including Shipping. :|

Next I Broke the Cheap Alum Rim. My Fault. I was going trail riding over bumps and didn't quite know how heavy the motor was and how much stress it can put on the Spokes, Rim and TAs. I was breaking spokes a lot before it became totally un-usable after a final trail ride. I don't think I would of had the Problem with a DH/FR (Down-Hill/Free-Ride) Rim. Those Rims are ment for jumping and abuse.
Papamotor sent me a Free New Rim I only had to pay $50 EMS Shipping. Had to re-spoke it myself! Was a learning experience. Lucky didn't have to True it.

Just bought a New Tire off Ebay. Was original tire off original bike. Not from PapaMotor. Bought for ~$40

Bought a 12 FET Sensorless Lyen Controller :twisted: with 3 Replacement Honeywell Hall Sensors from LYEN in October 2012 for $232.00 USD. That's including shipping where I live in Remote AUS and a couple extras to go with the controller. Like the Cable to Program it. Came with REGEN which is much better than the previous controller. See pic.

My latest order for the Broken Fuse , some new E-Break Handles and a couple extras Washer and Bolts. This is a snippet from their email:

"The price for all your replacement parts as below in blue:
1 x Fuse/Switch free fuse
1 x E-Break Handles $16
4 x Extra Axel Nuts free
4 x Q washers free
and
4 x Spacer Washers free

Finally,the EMS delivery charge us $35 for this shipping.
So,you have to pay us $35 shipping cost.
You should pay us $35+$16=Total $51."


PapaMotorInvoicePriceItemsCostDateSS_zps5e78412f.png

PapaMotorDiskBreakOrder65_zpsc92ba773.png

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IMG_1034_zps330189a7.jpg

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IMG_1032_zpsfd177719.jpg

LyenControllerOrderwithExtras_zps744445a9.png


That's the Documentation of my build and recites. Not all of them! Or even all the parts I bought which were related. I'll post and document more when I have some more time or more people show interest about PapaMotor, their parts and service or my Newb Ghetto Hacking together again to just make good enough Ebike Fixing Skills. I'll upload the vids I have on my cam soon about my build and what I've done with it. :mrgreen:
 
HORROR
Are this PapaMotors for real?
Do they ever tested their kit?
Or they just slap together ebike kit whit THE cheapest parts they could find
China pot metal
Everything starts with material
Those rims are disaster somebody can be seriously injured
 
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