Fat Man Commuter - 270lbs on 700c

[John in CR]

Guys, just be careful with recommendations. The poster is a large man, so let's stay away from talking about your own performance until you lightweight guys strap 100lb backpack on and measure results. Of course with some of those settings you'll blow the controller or motor on the first significant hill you attack. Hills and big loads means survivability and going slower, or a bigger motor.

Dave,
It's sounds like you're on the right track, and already understand some stuff about motors that most don't get. That motor will get you to solid performance, but with your load you're going to have to learn the limits on hills. Stopping to feeling the motor temp with you hand with some frequency after the most demanding portions of your ride will tell you a lot. 36V is going to give you electric assist, not a bike fun for you to ride around without pedaling. You'll also definitely want to assist the motor with pedaling on hills. It's also a good idea to help it a bit on takeoffs. Once you go to 72V, then you'll have to be even more careful to maintain a certain speed up the hills. Wesnewell is a big guy too and his advice isn't wrong. He's just a bit more into the DIY aspect and keeping things as economical as possible. From the sound of it the little extra you pay for Ebikes.ca support is definitely worth it for you. When you're ready to really step up performance, then you'll need to go with the kind of stuff I do, and us big guys get lots of attention outrunning cars and scooters, but you won't get there with that motor, at least not in a big wheel.

John

[dogman]

Good points for sure John. I was not overly concerned about the weight difference. I climb 5% plenty, and even with my cargo bike that weighs a ton, it's no sweat.

But now we hear there is a much steeper hill involved, 14% ! Yeah, now the weight really matters. That is an order of magnitude steeper.

More data please. This hill is 500 feet long, or 500 feet tall?

I think you will still make it, but your motor will get toasty hot doing it. You will have to pedal your guts out for that 500 ft in a low gear. I highly recomend you install a thermometer inside the motor. This will help you determine how you can climb the hill coolest. Chances are, charge it WOT will be best. But it could be better to actually back off the throttle near the top, and use the motor to assist you to climb the hill much slower. The idea is, if your motor is only going to be able to use 500w, don't give it 2000 so it can make heat with it. The further you make it up the hill on momentum the better, so a 48v battery will help. You can start up the hill at 4 mph faster with 48v.

The rest of your ride, with no more than 5% grades, should be no particular problem with the Hs or the Ht motor. I don't advocate climing the hills no pedaling, but you should be able to climb 5%, and still not pop huge sweat, or breathe too hard to talk. Just a nice moderate effort to help the motor keep it's cool.

As others will tell you, you can get stuff with zero customer support cheaper. But Grin is still the best vendor in the world. Not the cheapest, just the best. Justin does more R&D than anybody, including little tests like riding across entire continents.

[dsullivan]

I believe this is my last question on this topic

ebikes.ca is out of 48v charges for a while so I am limited to buying a 36v 14ah battery pack.

This fits my 36v now 72v later plans

It's my understanding that the Crystalyte Sensorless controllers will not do 72V only 36v-48v
If I want to run 72v later I will need the infineon 40a that is for a sensored motor. My question is can the infineon run a non-sensored motor?

In the end I would like to have a dependable machine that is sensorless, can upgrade from 36v to 72v.

From what I have read the sensored motors are smoother and start better but have a history of being a little less dependable because of hall sensors or hall sensor wires.

Am I stuck using sensored if I want to upgrade later to 72v?

Thanks
Dave

[dogman]

Sensored for 72v in my book. Don't sweat the controller you need later though. You will be a lot better informed which controller you want later. Along with which motor. You may be wanting a much bigger motor when you go 72v later anyway.

I think a good solid 36 to 48v setup is fine for your first bike. I am biased though, I have multiple bikes for different purposes, and don't believe in one bike fits all needs.

One battery can run multiple bikes, the motors and controllers are relatively cheap.

[Ypedal]

most.. repeat MOST... motors have sensors built in and wires that exit along with the phase wires..

you can use a sensorless controller on this type of motor, simply dont use the hall sensor wires...

an old video i made to troubleshoot a problem combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn38_mSQ ... ature=plcp



imo.. get a sensored motor and controller.. regardless of voltage.

[dsullivan]

Great video and thanks for sharing it again.
Ièm guessing the instant start controller uses the sensors to detect when to send power to the different phases thus without a sensor signal it sends nothing at all to the windings.

I am purely guessing here but the pedal first must charge at least one phase to create a magnetic field and that is why you get cogging. once the wheel starts to move it can sense from the other phases movement so it starts the rotation of power through the phases.

Anyone want to educate us on this further?

Hey your video leads me to this thought. If you turn off the controller do you still get cogging and resistance from the motor when manually pedaling?
Or does unplugging the hall sensors reduce drag when running manual?

[dsullivan]

I was mistaken. I do have another question.

My current bike has 700c tires
From the reading, the simulator and because ebikes.ca only list a 26" Clyte Kit I am wondering if the new 26in wheel, disk brake and freewheel will fit right in place of the 700c because the sizes are standardized?

Any hope of this or will it take some modifications?
If it won't bolt right on I feel I should buy the 9c 2807 Kit that comes on a 700c.

Thanks
Dave

[MadRhino]

With disc brakes, you can swap a 26 in wheel. Those motors are made to fit standard 10mm dropout that have a width of 135mm. Only rim brakes would make the fit complicated, for the brakes wouldn't match the smaller rim.

A 26 in wheel will be easier on your kit. A 700C makes for a loss of torque already, with heavy weight to climb it will be lame. Most experienced big guys who want extra power will build with an even smaller wheel with high voltage sooner or later.

Starting with 36v, you will want to double that pretty soon after you get some experience of Ebiking. The 36-72v 40A Infineon controller with 4110 mosfets is what you want. Forget about sensorless motors, a sensored motor can run sensorless if need be, but a sensorless motor will never run sensored unless you are willing to fit hall sensors yourself and you won't be able to do as clean of a job as if you had bought it sensored.

[Ypedal]

sensorless controllers come in 2 types.. Pedal First and Instant Start .

The pedal first types use the back EMF produced by copper passing over mangnets while the motor is turned by you pedaling.... once it senses the proper poles it can run on it's own..

Some sensorless can fire from a dead stop, RC controllers do this and crystalyte offers a big boy version..

regardless.. get a sensored setup.

[dogman]

If you are using a rear disk brake, the main fit issue would then only be if the frame is really narrow. If so, maybe you'd need to choose a narrower tire instead of somehting fatty. I think the 2807 will also do most the job you need fine, with 2000w or less. Pedal your guts out isn't going to change on that one hill.

[kevo]

Dave,
Great questions and you are getting quality feedback from Justin, dogman, JohnInCR, Henk, MadRhino, YPedal et al! You're research now is time well spent as these are non trivial design tradeoffs. A small suggestion if I may. TopoRoute.com has a very easy tool to map your routes and do elevation profiles. I think you will find it invaluable to crosscheck what type of grades you will be travelling on. If you're feeling a bit more adventurous, the ebikes.ca simulator bottom right tables will let you see just what kind of hills and how long you can climb them.
Thank you for sharing your questions and decisions with the group as we all benefit from your adventure!

[John in CR]

As an add-on to Kevo's post, once you have your elevation profiles, then this nice calculator can give you accurate power requirements. Just delete the power number and input the speed number to put it in calculate the power mode.http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

[dsullivan]

Thank you everyone.
I have been overwhelmed by the community response and participation in this project. I have been using the two Calculators.
The wattage required to do my journeys worst hill and hold 10miles per hour is 1000w, in a perfect simulator.
Really my route will avoid that one hill and the remaining hills are all 5% or less.

I have my heart set on this system and I will have to wait for ebikes.ca to get some parts in stock. I believe it will be soon.


1440 Watts (upgrading to 2880 Watts soon)

Crystalyte HS3540 Kit on a 26" rim setup ( With throttle and Cycle Analyst)
The infineon 36V-72V 40A Controller
36V 14Ah LiMn eZee battery pack, with matching 4A aluminum charger.*** with plans to add another 36V 14AH eZee pack later for a 72V system.
Shimano freewheel 8speed
160 mm rear disc brake



I am comfortable with this system, understand what each part does and believe it will be a great first ebike.
Thank you for all of your help and I look forward to being active on here giving advice after I have made my mistakes and gained some experience.

Thanks for everything
Dave

PS - I am guessing that ebikes.ca is quite busy lately but does anyone know when they will have the 40A_upgrade Infineons in stock? I am chomping at the bit to get this ordered and built Cash burning holes in my pocket right now. Running to the bank to put it on the Visa.

[hjns]

PS - I am guessing that ebikes.ca is quite busy lately but does anyone know when they will have the 40A_upgrade Infineons in stock? I am chomping at the bit to get this ordered and built Cash burning holes in my pocket right now. Running to the bank to put it on the Visa.

If you want to get a controller "fast", either ask MethTek or Lyen. However, the system will then not be plug and play, and you will have to add appropriate connectors yourself. Keeping with Grin will keep things plug and play, so shoot Justin an email and ask. Alternatively, ask Methods to provide the controller, motor, and stuff as a P&P kit, and then you only have to worry about the battery connector.

System looks nice. You should have a lot of fun with it.

[kevo]

Dave,
Despite the hit to the pocketbook now, your excellent planning / design will have major payoff long term and will keeping your grin going. 72 volt LiMn will be massive fun! Properly setup the CA will keep your system healthy for a long time.

[dsullivan]

OK So here is the first follow up on this discussion.

I ordered the system as we discussed. The people at ebikes.ca took my order via email and phone. After a couple of conversations where they very politely helped me put together a kit with my preferences and the extra parts I would need to make it all work.
Paid via credit card and the shipment was sent and received in a timely manner. excellent!

So now I am unpacking everything. I put the spacer and the gearset on the wheel.

I unwrap all the fun little packages and I discover that my cycle analyst looks like the Direct Plug-in Model (CA-DP) except it has an extra wire.
The extra wire looks like a typical everyday power plug like you would have from a wall adapter to your telephone or computer speakers.
It is not mentioned in the manual for the Cycle Analyst nor is it mentioned on the website or ebikes.ca
before I do anything with this wire does anyone know what it is for?
My first guess is to plug into the battery maybe?

I had blowing stuff up to early in the game so advice would be wonderful.

Thanks.
Dave

[hjns]

What else did you order? If you ordered a luminator, this wire may provide the lamp with juice. Probably feeds 12V.

Connect the CA to the controller. Make sure the controller is switched off. Connect the battery to the controller. Switch the controller on. Check the voltage over the unknown wire, and you will see the light.

If this is it, it is extra service from Grin, to help you with minimizing the wire clutter.

[Ypedal]

It provides battery pack voltage, directly to a Lumenator if you get one.. or whatever else you want to power at the handlebars up to a few amps. (* Cover it with tape and tuck it or zip tie it safely away if not used )

it is not 12v !!

[hjns]

It provides battery pack voltage, directly to a Lumenator if you get one.. or whatever else you want to power at the handlebars up to a few amps. (* Cover it with tape and tuck it or zip tie it safely away if not used )

it is not 12v !!

Oh. OK. If it is battery pack voltage and you are not using it, you may want to cover it really well...

[dsullivan]

excellent answers. Thanks you. So I did like the first poster suggested. I hooked it all up, turned it on and put a tester on the plug.

TADA 1 Volt! Im not sure what that means. Yep ONE VOLT.

It does look like a plug for the illuminator which will rock when I buy one. But what good is one volt.
Maybe it has settings for the new wire?

Dave

[hjns]

beats me.

[Ypedal]

what battery do you have hooked up to the controller ?

( 1v might be residual voltage from the capacitors if the system is not getting battery power at the time of the test )

[dsullivan]

I have an eZee 36v(42v) 14ah battery attached and on. The cycle Analyst is on and the controller is on. I can read the display while I am testing.

Dave

[teklektik]

Just curious - what did ebikes.ca have to say?
Seems like the logical place to start....

[dsullivan]

I was hoping someone here would know before I have to pay another $8 long distance charge

I did find in the advance settings ("Aux Power" on/off)