Road bike commuter bike build

Hi all,

New member here. I'm 26, about to start as a medical resident next year, and am a faithful bike commuter in hilly Seattle. Given that I'll be working at 4 hospitals located at all quadrants of town and will be up at ungodly hours I'm unsure of my commitment or ability to ride the road bike in as it is. For example, my commute this month from my rented house in north Seattle to the VA hospital south of Seattle is ~12.8 miles each way with several substantial hills. Even with good base fitness as a regular commuter I average slightly under 13 mph on the road bike. I can't see myself riding 1h each way every day, even if this commute is longer than what will be my average next year.

By the numbers:
- I'll have a commute variously up to ~12 miles next year at the wee hours of the morning
- Hills are involved
- I will make every effort to have battery charging access at work
- I currently average ~13 mph on a long, hilly route, and 14+ on shorter segments of the route
- I'd like to average 20 mph with electric assist, so ~500W by my calculations
- I weigh ~200 lbs, and currently commute somewhat inconsistently on a road bike, a 2000 Klein Quantum Race. This is how it looks at the moment if you squint and imagine full fenders (hey, it's Seattle after all):



After testing some commercial e-bikes and being intrigued but also dismayed at the riding position, weight, and proprietary components at none-too-attractive price levels I came to the conclusion that converting my Klein would be the best way to go. I'm comfortable with drop bars and my current seat for 25 miles per day as it is, and I'd love assist on the hills. This decision to convert a road bike is what inspires me to start a new thread, as most everyone here seems to favor bikes that would cause most traditional bikers to wrinkle their noses in terms of weight and components.

My thoughts/plan (please critique!), all parts from ebikes.ca:

Replace current carbon fork with a sturdy steel fork, still 700c
Add a torque arm to this fork for good measure
C-lite 407 front hub motor in a 700c wheel (408 isn't available on ebikes.ca's store in 700c/front form)
72V 48A immediate start controller
Cycle Analyst DP model
C-lite thumb throttle, since I can't figure out how I'd mount or operate a twist throttle with drop bars
48V 12Ah rectangular NiMH battery from ebikes.ca
48V 2A NiMH/NiCa battery charger

Questions for the audience: Do these specs look ok for my performance goals? Has anyone else converted a road bike? Where should I mount a rectangular battery pack?

Thanks.

This looks like a good setup and you can't do better than Justin at ebikes.ca but I'd ask this question about the exact details of Justin as he's built a lot of ebikes. Ask about the 72v, what kind of torque arm and if your fork can take it. Justin has a very good (4110 Fet) 72v controler that will plug into the CA. Also you might consider getting one of his triangle battery packs as your weight will be lower and centered. People rarely mention that a big pack on a rear rack can make a side stand disfunctional and you can have nowhere to put your bike in certain situations -- hills & etc.

I'd plan on some heftier tires too -- again ask Justin

This is a nice looking project -- please keep us informed as you build and ride it.

Welcome to the forum. Nice bike.

Mounting a 15LB motor, and clunky battery pack to a delicate, finely made racing bike just seems wrong, perhaps a stronger steel framed bike might be a wise consideration. That way you can also mount panniers for your lunch and other gear without the fear of folding the wheels into a taco shape. You can find good bikes second hand for cheap.

i would consider taking a look at this http://www.jvbike.com/bikes/CRD_BionX.htm because the weight and ease of use will be much better on your bike than adding all kinds of things to your bike to handle the weight of 48 volts etc.

also the new 500 watts version http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_500_lithium_battery.htm and you could disable the speed limiter

You might also consider the pusher-trailer option: minimal mods to the bike, total power/space/cargo freedom, leave it locked someplace and pedal whenever you like.

Nimbuzz said:

This looks like a good setup and you can't do better than Justin at ebikes.ca but I'd ask this question about the exact details of Justin as he's built a lot of ebikes. Ask about the 72v, what kind of torque arm and if your fork can take it. Justin has a very good (4110 Fet) 72v controler that will plug into the CA. Also you might consider getting one of his triangle battery packs as your weight will be lower and centered. People rarely mention that a big pack on a rear rack can make a side stand disfunctional and you can have nowhere to put your bike in certain situations -- hills & etc.

I'd plan on some heftier tires too -- again ask Justin

This is a nice looking project -- please keep us informed as you build and ride it.

Click to expand...

I will indeed ask Justin about 72V and the possibility of beefier tires. I was hoping to use a triangular pack as the main triangle seems an ideal place for batteries but didn't see one listed in an appropriate voltage and Ah on ebikes.ca/store. Wouldn't it be possible to jerry rig a mounting system for a rectangular pack? Its greatest dimension is 11", and my bike's top tube is certainly longer than that.

recumbent said:

Welcome to the forum. Nice bike.

Mounting a 15LB motor, and clunky battery pack to a delicate, finely made racing bike just seems wrong, perhaps a stronger steel framed bike might be a wise consideration. That way you can also mount panniers for your lunch and other gear without the fear of folding the wheels into a taco shape. You can find good bikes second hand for cheap.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment. I've been cycling for many years, and have been commuting on this bike since 2001 (bought it new-old stock). I haven't even needed to true the rims once despite bunnyhopping many a curb, train track, and manhole cover. I would trust my bike more than almost any department store bike, and would be hard to find a steel-framed bike that fits me and has comparable components (Ultegra in this case) for a reasonable price.

That said, you do have an excellent point about the rear rack and about the frame strength. My bike has neither eyelets nor "sideways" brake bosses so for a "real" rear rack I'd have to use something like the Old Man Mountain Sherpa rack: http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Pages/RackPages/RearRacks.html . About the frame: the soft aluminum of my frame along with my desire to retain a 9 speed cassette instead of going ages back technologically to a 7 speed freewheel is why I'm leaning towards a front wheel motor setup. I figure a beefy steel front fork with torque arm would be a great platform, and indeed more reliable than some cast-aluminum generic suspension fork fitted to a department store bikes.

If you can tell I have little love for department store bikes. Like I said, I'm a cyclist first.

slayer said:

i would consider taking a look at this http://www.jvbike.com/bikes/CRD_BionX.htm because the weight and ease of use will be much better on your bike than adding all kinds of things to your bike to handle the weight of 48 volts etc.

also the new 500 watts version http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_500_lithium_battery.htm and you could disable the speed limiter

Click to expand...

I did consider the BionX setup, and it's indeed attractive. Problems with the 500W setup as I see it:

1) Must ship to California (not big deal, would ship to a friend).
2) High speed bias vs. high torque/hillclimbing.
3) Locked into proprietary battery and controller tech. I'd rather be able to pick my battery specs and use a Cycle Analyst and standalone, upgradeable controller.
4) Would be a bit more expensive than the system I've speced out.

Tyler, that's an interesting thought. I'll look into the pusher trailers. A big downside in my mind of that idea would be the loss of the ability to toss the bike onto the bike racks present on every Seattle metro bus.

Toshi said:

A big downside in my mind of that idea would be the loss of the ability to toss the bike onto the bike racks present on every Seattle metro bus.

Click to expand...

I'll work on that. 8)

slayer said:

i would consider taking a look at this http://www.jvbike.com/bikes/CRD_BionX.htm because the weight and ease of use will be much better on your bike than adding all kinds of things to your bike to handle the weight of 48 volts etc.

also the new 500 watts version http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_500_lithium_battery.htm and you could disable the speed limiter

Click to expand...

That looks a good option. A front motor on a road bike just seems *wrong*. What alternatives are there to the Bionx for a rear hub?

Also, have a look at what these people are doing!

JennyB said:

[The BionX] looks a good option. A front motor on a road bike just seems *wrong*. What alternatives are there to the Bionx for a rear hub?

Also, have a look at what these people are doing!

Click to expand...

Why does a front hub motor on a road bike seem wrong? Does it seem more wrong than a rear hub motor? C-lite and others have rear hub motors, but there are a few reasons why they don't seem like a good idea to me:

1) My Klein's frame is aluminum. A torque arm would probably chew right through the metal, and the rear entry/Breezer-style dropouts wouldn't handle any torque without such an arm.
2) Being a bona fide road bike frame it has very low clearance on the seatstays and chainstays (for a low Q factor -- makes it nicer on the hips to pedal due to the short bottom bracket). This means that there wouldn't be clearance for wide tires, or, more importantly, for the generic-rim-of-unknown-width-and-quality that comes with the rear hub motor/wheel kits.

The front wheel option seems better for my application because replacing the fork with a stronger, higher clearance model is a piece of cake, and the stresses would be isolated from the aluminum main frame.

The Snugg commuter bike setup on practicalpedal.com seems nice. Thanks for the link. Digging in the comments it looks like it's a 36V Li-polymer setup of unknown Ah, some kind of brushless DC motor, and a custom pedal-actuated controller. I guess pedal actuation makes sense with drop bars like they're running.

Toshi said:

Why does a front hub motor on a road bike seem wrong? Does it seem more wrong than a rear hub motor? C-lite and others have rear hub motors, but there are a few reasons why they don't seem like a good idea to me:

1) My Klein's frame is aluminum. A torque arm would probably chew right through the metal, and the rear entry/Breezer-style dropouts wouldn't handle any torque without such an arm.
2) Being a bona fide road bike frame it has very low clearance on the seatstays and chainstays (for a low Q factor -- makes it nicer on the hips to pedal due to the short bottom bracket). This means that there wouldn't be clearance for wide tires, or, more importantly, for the generic-rim-of-unknown-width-and-quality that comes with the rear hub motor/wheel kits.

The front wheel option seems better for my application because replacing the fork with a stronger, higher clearance model is a piece of cake, and the stresses would be isolated from the aluminum main frame.

Click to expand...

All good points. It's probably just prejudice on my part since I haven't actually ridden one yet, but ISTM that the rotating mass of a heavy front motor would make your bike handle very differently. I too have a dearly-loved bike (late '80's Cannondale tourer) that I am thinking of electrifying - hence my interest.

JennyB said:

All good points. It's probably just prejudice on my part since I haven't actually ridden one yet, but ISTM that the rotating mass of a heavy front motor would make your bike handle very differently. I too have a dearly-loved bike (late '80's Cannondale tourer) that I am thinking of electrifying - hence my interest.

Click to expand...

Is your Cannondale one of the ones where the seatstays attach about 3" forward of the axle on the chainstay? (mtb example photo: http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/507/medium/246904cdaleside.jpg)

Although I've had an interest in alternative transportation for a while I never really took electric bikes seriously until I test rode a few eZees earlier this week at a local shop. They have front wheel motors, and the handling was decent. I would have bought one were it not for the legally-mandated power/speed restriction, my bike snobbiness (horrible, completely generic components such as 1-pc cranks on one $1600 model...), and the desire to retain the ergonomics and aerodynamics of my road bike.

Hi Toshi,

Nice to see someone else on here who likes drop handlebars. That's what I grew up with.

Currently I'm riding a commercially built ebike, with front hub motor and straight bars. The handling is very, very different from your bike. First time I tried to dodge a car I fell off. The first time I tried to jump the front wheel up over a kerb (UK spelling) I got a real shock - it just won't do it. I am not an expert on bike handling, but I can't help think the weight of the hub motor is a significant factor. So I am now looking to build myself one with a rear motor.

The decision I'm facing is whether to use a road bike like you, or a full suspension bike. The UK view would be the road bike but most people on endless sphere are recommending full suspension. I suspect that if you want electric assist to get you to 20 mph average starting with a road bike is best, but if you want the electrics to do all the work to get you to 30 mph then a suspension bike may be better. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on.

Nick

Small motor + backpack bat/controller = unruinfied roadster? Sounds like it could work. I like the trailer idea too, but here bus rack wouldn't make a diff, cause as soon as you sit down something that nice would be gone off the front of the bus.

Tiberius said:

Hi Toshi,

Nice to see someone else on here who likes drop handlebars. That's what I grew up with.

Currently I'm riding a commercially built ebike, with front hub motor and straight bars. The handling is very, very different from your bike. First time I tried to dodge a car I fell off. The first time I tried to jump the front wheel up over a kerb (UK spelling) I got a real shock - it just won't do it. I am not an expert on bike handling, but I can't help think the weight of the hub motor is a significant factor. So I am now looking to build myself one with a rear motor.

The decision I'm facing is whether to use a road bike like you, or a full suspension bike. The UK view would be the road bike but most people on endless sphere are recommending full suspension. I suspect that if you want electric assist to get you to 20 mph average starting with a road bike is best, but if you want the electrics to do all the work to get you to 30 mph then a suspension bike may be better. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on.

Nick

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, Nick. I'll be sure to update this thread as I mentally (and materially, with any luck) progress in the project. I can't see the rationale for needing a suspension bike to ride 30 mph on the road: I do 30+ routinely on downhills on the road bike without issue, and, like I've mentioned, reliability of wheels or frame has not been an issue over 7 years of commuting on this particular bike.

I see why the Jackal and other full-boat suspended electric scooters are attractive (overkill for me besides the theft and licensing issues), but I can't for the life of me see why $200 department store bikes with their soft alloy wheels, high-tensile steel frames, and undamped suspensions are the platform of choice.

vanilla ice said:

Small motor + backpack bat/controller = unruinfied roadster? Sounds like it could work. I like the trailer idea too, but here bus rack wouldn't make a diff, cause as soon as you sit down something that nice would be gone off the front of the bus.

Click to expand...

It seems like it would be pretty easy to revert to an unelectrified state should I, say, want to compete in a UCI-governed race (not likely!): swap brakes from steel fork/electric hub motor front wheel assembly to the current carbon fork/normal wheel, undo the stem, and slide one fork's steerer tube in for the other. The battery as I envision it will be held on with some sort of straps to the top or down tubes so that I could bring it inside to roost in safety on the charger.

i think most road bike have front fork design to take the pushing force of the rear wheel. Using front hub motor will cause the fork to be pulling the whole bike and you by the front fork and i don't think they're design for that. At the same time, people who ride road bike might find it hard when they first ride a front hub motor and experience the gyroscopic effects of the massive front wheel.

Looks like a well thought out idea. I think many here are against Front motors for a veriaty of valid reasons, but for your application, it should be fine.

However, the 407 isn't much of a hill climber in a 700c wheel. Its well suited to riding on the flats, and should get you maybe as high as 30mph, but its going to bog down on the hills. I would ask Justin at Ebikes.ca if they have a project motor they can lace into a rim for you, and go with a 408 or 409 at elast, and possably bump the voltage up and go for a 4011.

Another alternitive is to drop to a 26" front wheel. That would be roughly the equivilent of using a 650C race wheel, but give you some added torque for the hills.

As for tires, you probably don't need more than a 25c. its less about the load carrying ability, and more about having a larger contact patch for traction and braking.

ngocthach1130, thanks for the post. I do intend to swap my current carbon front fork for a heavy duty (cyclocross maybe?) steel 700c model, as I agree that the current unit would probably be unsuitable.

Drunkskunk said:

Looks like a well thought out idea. I think many here are against Front motors for a veriaty of valid reasons, but for your application, it should be fine.

However, the 407 isn't much of a hill climber in a 700c wheel. Its well suited to riding on the flats, and should get you maybe as high as 30mph, but its going to bog down on the hills. I would ask Justin at Ebikes.ca if they have a project motor they can lace into a rim for you, and go with a 408 or 409 at elast, and possably bump the voltage up and go for a 4011.

Another alternitive is to drop to a 26" front wheel. That would be roughly the equivilent of using a 650C race wheel, but give you some added torque for the hills.

As for tires, you probably don't need more than a 25c. its less about the load carrying ability, and more about having a larger contact patch for traction and braking.

Click to expand...

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of advice I need.

I don't plan on running much more than a 25c -- I currently run 23c at 110-120 psi with no complaints about traction or even comfort. Rolling fast feels more comfortable to me .

With regard to torque/hillclimbing: I'd heard much about the 408 motor from perusing other "my first e-bike" threads, but I assume those were for 26" applications. I'll contact Justin about 72V, 408/409/4011 applications. I thought about running a 650c or 26" up front but I fear that would screw the geometry up bigtime, as my bike started out steep from the outset (74 degrees? head angle iirc).

Hello

Yes a good idea, I don't know why more people don't electrify racers I guess most people that ride them don't need to do it! and a lot of the folks on here don't need a racer so spend their dollars on the motors battery and controller and go for the cheap bike as you dont need anything special for an e-bike.

I have built many e-bikes and different rides, my daily rig is a Trek ally MTB, rear wheel hub motor (BMC) Puma, geared, great torque and acceleration, its light and quiet too, I run 2 x 24V 13AH 48V total Nimh packs, one in the frame and one on the rack, I am using a 72V 35A std xlyte controller and a magura twist throttle.

This rig is perfect for commuting, not too heavy, very fast 26mph with amazing acceleration just what you want in traffic and super hill climbing ability.

I can get 40 miles with mild peddling, a rig like this would easily do your commute, there is no reason really not to run a front motor you just have to watch powering the throttle on loose gravel or in the wet when turning, if you go for a steel fork the 4 series xlyte motor wont need a torque arm if you keep the power under 1KW, over that and it will, it does depend on the dropout though and some 700C drops are thin so you may be better off doing it anyway.

NIMH still a good choice if you can get them cheap enough? my pack is still good after 2 years and I have loads of lipo to play with as well!! the NIMH still work great and Justin at e-bikes uses a good brand as well, you may want to think about Life batts as they offer good dollar per cell when you take in to account their lifespan.

I think the moderator on the board here uses a 700C wheel? there used to be a guy in canada that ran a USPD on a cannondale, that worked well and that was driving the spokes as well, bottom bracket drive is also maybe an option but you seem like you prefer the classic approach so yes front is a good idea.

Devin who used to post on here had a great rig, he used a full steel MTB frame and had a special solid front fork made with thick dropouts that had the torque arm built in (like a spanner) he then fitted it with 4 x 14V 13AH batteryspace NIMH packs and ran them in thin light basket panniers on either side of the rear, he ran an X5 in the front and used the bike to commute through SF and motored up all those steep SF hills, he posted some amazing vids a few years back but sadly pulled them off youtube as people were moaning he was riding too fast and dangerously, but still his bike was a great platform, simple and fast (40mph) and powerful and relatively cheap.

If I were you I would go with a BMC or a 407 exactly as you explained but maybe go for Justins life packs, you may be able to get them mounted neatly in the frame after a few trips to home depot!

There are loads of very helpful folks on this board so take some time soaking up peoples opinions before you spend your dollars, just the right time to get a new rig as the snow is melting and the flowers are popping up, let us all see what you do and get a good bike lock!!

Knoxie

But with that setup you won't be able to keep the excellent road bike comfort because these things pretty much all use a retarded motorcycle-like throttle instead of being integrating with the bicycle. Hence you'll have to ditch the drops and get flatbars or something else with only one hand position.

The other choices would be bionx with a torque sensor in the hub. Otherwise I've seen bikes with an ss driveline and a roller thing the chain presses when you pedal, charger style, but that would mean either riding ss or adding another ~2kg in the rear for a gearhub.

Also keep in mind if you have a motor that gets you to 20 mph you'll be able to go a lot faster then anyone else on the road because you still have the energy you didn't use to get there, beyond that it's easy to keep up the speed between the times when you have to stop and get to recover.

But anyways if you're willing to sacrifice comfort, control and go with flatbars, then I think I'd look away from 6Kg mounted all the way up front. That's a lot more massive then it sounds, and they make bikes that weigh less then that. And fairly heavy frame mounted batteries to boot, understand the bike is gonna feel like shit with that, more like a motorcycle. Instead this type of setup seems advantageous, note the motor here is ~2kg and centred in the frame, batteries are not hurting the bike:

[youtube]gKE_JmdNPT4[/youtube]


Otherwise there's the geared hub motors, generally ~4kg so still pretty heavy but already a lot more manageable. They're not significantly different once up to speed, but when bogged down such as going up a hill they put out ~1/2 more torque to the wheel for the same energy consumption as the gearless motors so you can get away with less battery weight.

On the Heavy front wheel: I've got a second hand Wilderness energy BD-36 in the front of my mountain bike and the steering is now REALLY heavy. I think that most of this is the cheap and heavy single wall rim the motor comes with. A good light rim and tire would likely get my steering at least half-way back to normal.

I'm interested how drop handlebars work out for you. Frankly I prefer them, but existing throttles make it difficult to use drop bars.

A cyclone or Elation BB drive kit is another option beyond the german kit Mathurin highlighted.

Marty

Front wheel weight will be an issue, sure, and thats one of the reasons rear wheel drive is prefered. But for what he wants, front drive is probably the best option. These race style frames have the back wheel tucked in more than a mtn bike, so they are tail heavy from the weight of the rider already.
Thats whjy I dismissed my race frame Cannondale and bought a new mountian bike when I decided to go electric.


Throttles. This part is easy. you could go with a thumb throttle, which will give you the best grip of the bar, or you could go with a half twist if there is enough straight section on the drop. The tricky part will be mounting the break leaver/shifter. it may clear fine, or you might be able to reverse it, or even move it to the top bar.

Toshi said:

Is your Cannondale one of the ones where the seatstays attach about 3" forward of the axle on the chainstay?

Click to expand...

No, it's even older than that! :? http://picasaweb.google.com/jennybrien/MyBike

Although I've had an interest in alternative transportation for a while I never really took electric bikes seriously until I test rode a few eZees earlier this week at a local shop. They have front wheel motors, and the handling was decent. I would have bought one were it not for the legally-mandated power/speed restriction, my bike snobbiness (horrible, completely generic components such as 1-pc cranks on one $1600 model...), and the desire to retain the ergonomics and aerodynamics of my road bike.

Click to expand...

Ah, you know a "true cyclist" when he checks out your chainset! :wink:

I've been riding this particular bike for 15 years, and there are still lots of places in Ireland I want to explore and revisit, but my knees are not what they were. I'm looking at the feasibility of B+B/hostelling tours, recharging each night. Since I will be travelling no faster on the flat than I would unassisted, and hope to have an absolute maximum all-up weight of no more that 125 kg, each 100 watt/hours of capacity would ideally gain 800 ft of altitude. I'm looking for a system that will deliver the best part of that, bearing in mind that most long climbs are less than 1:10, but I'd like to be able to easily tackle short sections of 1:5.

Wow! that bike is a work of art! I think it will fly with a good motor on it and front hub will work well if you use torque arms. Check out this page there is a street bike with a front monuted hub motor. http://www.ebikes.ca/projects.shtml I am the thinking the same as yourself when people are recomending walmart bikes for everyday use even if they are being electrified. I tested those bikes out and the so called suspension was terrible no rebound dampening just springy bobing power eating eyesores. If your spending $200-$300 why not spend a bit more and get something comfortable and high quality. I wish you luck and all I can say is read as much as you can and ask a lot of questions I learn something new every day about ebikes.

Drunkskunk said:

Another alternitive[sic] is to drop to a 26" front wheel. That would be roughly the equivilent of using a 650C race wheel, but give you some added torque for the hills.

Click to expand...

(I emailed info@ebikes.ca regarding all of the questions brought up in this thread a few days ago but no response yet.)

I've been giving the 26" option some thought, and it's starting to seem appealing.

Here's a post I made on another (non-ebike) board, where I post in all lowercase :

Toshi (on Ridemonkey) said:

since i'm massacring the road bike anyway i figured why not go one step further and run a 26" wheel up front.

disadvantages:
1) committing sacrilege.
2) would look funny
3) possible clearance issues with fork crown and downtube, although this would have been a problem with a 700c cyclocross fork as well
4) would have to run an adapter to increase cable pull at the brakes in order to drive V-brakes with drop bar levers

advantages would be numerous:
1) more choices of off the shelf setups, in particular with a motor winding with more low speed torque (at the expense of top end)
2) shorter lever arm = more torque via physics
3) cheaper fork options
4) axle to crown wouldn't be that much different (391 mm for a 26" tange rigid fork vs. ~370 mm for a 700c race fork), just about accounting for the smaller wheel if i stay sane/slim on tire choice

here's comparison of power output between the 700c setup and a proposed 26" front wheel setup:

407 motor in a 700c wheel, 48V 12Ah NiMH, 50A controller, 100% throttle, mph, N-m) of the motor via http://ebikes.ca/simulator/:

408 motor in a 26" wheel, 48V 12Ah NiMH, 50A controller, 100% throttle, mph, N-m) of the motor via http://ebikes.ca/simulator/:

and here would be the nutso/fun option...

408 motor in a 26" wheel, 72V 8Ah NiMH, 50A controller, 100% throttle, mph, N-m) of the motor via http://ebikes.ca/simulator/:

Click to expand...

Any thoughts on which of the curves above looks most appropriate for my intended use? While I don't necessarily need to go super fast, I wouldn't turn it down if it were a side effect...

I thought one guy here said he ran a 408 at 72v and burned it out.