e29er build thread

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:05 am

jasonf150 wrote:I was just typing out a response when I noticed you posted. Here is a picture of where I am. Should I try further or just bring it to you?

***EDIT***
There is no reading coming from the plug. I tried every combo in the plug and nothing moves the meter.
***EDIT***

link to larger image (http://11.a.hostable.me/images/battery_taken_apart.JPG)

If there is no voltage reading on any combination of the three pins in the charging plug, but you do get voltage on the Andersons, there's gotta be a broken wire on that plug. I can see the green negative wire in the lower right corner, and it looks like it is securely attached, as does the thin black negative lead of the thermistor. So that leaves the red positive wire, and the thin black signal wire of the thermistor.

If there is no resistance reading between the negative battery wire and the thermistor pin on the 3-pin plug, (green/yellow wire at the plug end), then the thermistor has a broken wire or connection.

It's probably easier for you to bring it over than to tear into it further, if you have the time to bring it by tomorrow night.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:28 am

I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to your house that late. Do you mind if I give it a shot?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:13 pm

Go right ahead. If you can't find (or find but cant' fix) the problem, we can probably set something up for Friday after you get off work.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:53 pm

Ok. The issue is that one of the white 5a fuses blew. I'll try and find one to replace it. Radio shack?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Radio shack has a 10a 264 degree thermal fuse. Will that work?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:16 pm

I rode it home without the fuse. @amberwolf, if you have a spare fuse for it, i'll try really hard to get over there tonight and we'll get it installed. Not sure of the ramifications of running without the fuse on one of the battery banks. Obviously it's in there for a reason right. I held it to about 15-17mph for the ride, so as not to pin the throttle the entire time. Also, my CA is limited to 15A.

Details of the ride home:
49:29
11.59 miles
3.617 aH used
126.67 wh
10.9 wh/m
14.9 avg mph

When I pedal, this ride home takes me about 1:05. Also, I have the wheel size set to 2,311mm (91in measured). Does that sound right for a 29" wheel? My iPhone with the MapMyRide app only thinks the ride is 11.2 miles. It uses GPS, so I assume the CA is way more accurate. Anyone else with a 29" mountain bike, what wheel size do you have set?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:46 am

Not sure about those white fuses; I don't remember them, actually. If they are thermal fuses, then they generally only blow when stuff gets really really hot, way beyond normal.

I do not think I have any fuses around here like them; can you post a pic of the fuse?


I would say for now you can run it without the fuse, but keep an eye on pack temperature (while discharging, at least--while charging the charger will do that for you and shut off if it's too hot). It takes a few minutes for the outside of the pack to heat up like the inside gets, kind of like how hubmotors seem cool until you stop. :)
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:43 am

Not a very good picture, but here it is. There's a total of 2 in the pack. One for each side. The other one is still good and remains in there.

There is a part # on it. It also says 5A, 92°C.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:11 pm

Ok. At 5A, it just about would have to be in the thermistor line, but which wire was it in? And which wire is the other one in? I know it can't be pack negative, as that goes right to that end cell.

I can't imagine how the thermistor could pull 5A unless there's a short in it's wiring inside the pack somehow. It makes me think that these are in the positive pack line, which makes no sense given the currents this pack has had to deliver during testing and riding I've done and during your rides.

92C is 197.6F, so the pack would have to be nearly boiling hot to blow them thermally, and you'd've probably noticed that. :) Probably the duct tape would unsticky at that point, curling off. Not sure if you'd get any funny smells, but I doubt you could keep your hand on the pack at that temperature.

Oh, and regarding wheel size, if you don't have a tape measure flexible enough to easily put around the tire (like a tailor's tape) the best way to verify is to place a mark on the wheel, center that at the bottom in contact with the ground, then roll the wheel across the ground until that mark is in the same position. Then use your regular ruler or tape measure/etc. to verify the distance between those two points. Even different tire inflation can change the results, with some tires.


The CA (or any other wheel-based odometer) is only as accurate as the wheel size entered; GPS should also be pretty accurate, too.



I guess the good news in all this is nothing has gone wrong with your actual ebike, just the old well-abused NiMH pack. :) Plus you've got some ebike troubleshooting under your belt, in case anything similar ever happens while you're on the road or otherwise out of contact with help.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:37 pm

In the below image, the red wire that goes vertical in the image is where those fuses are. Which are where the 2 sides are joined, I think. I'm not sure. It wasn't really hot. I really don't know what happened. I was just freaked out that I messed up your battery. I would hate for that to happen. I just hope that removing that fuse doesn't cause any further damage.
http://11.a.hostable.me/images/battery_taken_apart_small.jpg

Haven't heard from cell_man with a status on my battery since the 18th, when he said it would be 3-4 more days. I know he's got a lot on his plate, but I'm really anxious.

I put a tape measure on the ground, and used the valve stem to measure one revolution. It's just weird they are so far off....almost 10%. Had the same issue with a little bike computer that was on my Trek roadbike. It was also off compared to the GPS app. Although I don't recall if it was off in the same direction. I just wish I knew which was the correct one. :|

Oh and regarding my brilliant (read: stupid) dashboard idea. I ripped all that crap off. It was just too much wires and I'm too cheap to do it the right way, ie with good connectors and LED's and such. Plus I had wicked interference with the AM signal while running the bike motor. I'm just going to run Cateye headlights and taillights (2 of each). I like the blink pattern on these taillights and they have a motion feature, so I don't need to remember to turn them on and off. I'll run them on rechargeable batteries and use an 8 bank charger to charge them. Pics to come when all the stuff has arrived and is installed. Just need to find a good place for my controller. And a way to mount my phone. I like to see my split times about halfway through my commute and taking it out of my pocket is annoying.

In case anyone is interested, here are links. These same items are available in white, which I think looks pretty cool.
headlight: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000R5NR9O/ref=pe_175190_21431760_C1_cs_sce_dp_2
taillight: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003WCH510/ref=pe_175190_21431760_C1_cs_sce_dp_1
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:06 pm

jasonf150 wrote:In the below image, the red wire that goes vertical in the image is where those fuses are. Which are where the 2 sides are joined, I think. I'm not sure. It wasn't really hot. I really don't know what happened. I was just freaked out that I messed up your battery. I would hate for that to happen. I just hope that removing that fuse doesn't cause any further damage.
http://11.a.hostable.me/images/battery_taken_apart_small.jpg

If it wasn't hot, then that means current flow is what blew the fuse. If it is in that center red wire, that is battery charger positive. I don't know how it could get a high enough current to blow the fuse in that wire, as I don't think the charger is that high a current capacity. (unless there is an intermittent short in that wire to something else in the pack).

The other red wire is, I think, battery output positive, and that defnitely sees way mroe than 5A in just normal use. So I don't imagine it could have those fuses in it (besides which it has the 40A external fuse, too).

I wouldn't worry about damaging the pack too much, as it isn't one that I use often--mostly for testing these days, or powering things around the house. I learned the hard way over the years: don't loan things out that I can't afford to lose or have damaged. :) I also try never to borrow anything from anyone, as many of my uses for things is not normal and often breaks things. :(




I put a tape measure on the ground, and used the valve stem to measure one revolution. It's just weird they are so far off....almost 10%. Had the same issue with a little bike computer that was on my Trek roadbike. It was also off compared to the GPS app.

If you are off in wheel measurement by only few mm, that adds or subtracts that much distance to every wheel revolution, which could end up causing a large distance error by the end of 11+ miles. There's nearly 700 revolutions of the wheel for every mile on a 29" wheel. Adds up quick.



Oh and regarding my brilliant (read: stupid) dashboard idea. I ripped all that crap off. It was just too much wires and I'm too cheap to do it the right way, ie with good connectors and LED's and such. Plus I had wicked interference with the AM signal while running the bike motor. I'm just going to run Cateye headlights and taillights (2 of each). I like the blink pattern on these taillights and they have a motion feature, so I don't need to remember to turn them on and off. I'll run them on rechargeable batteries and use an 8 bank charger to charge them. Pics to come when all the stuff has arrived and is installed. Just need to find a good place for my controller. And a way to mount my phone. I like to see my split times about halfway through my commute and taking it out of my pocket is annoying.

A dashboard can be useful to integrate everything, and I have planned several of them but built none, usually due to time, sometimes because I didn't have all the parts I wanted to use. Regarding connectors, you can usually salvage all sorts of them off of old scrapped electronics. I've used many old computer power supplies for their cabling and connectors, and salvaged the other end of the connectors from dead computer boards and drives. My first working ebike, DayGlo Avenger, used an ATX power connector with many pins paralleled for all the interconnects between controller, battery, throttle, etc., so I could easily take the motor/controller panel off the bike for service/etc. Worked fine for my purposes.


There are phone mounts for bikes, but I don't know what they cost. A fairly simple mount would be to use a stretchy skin for the phone, and secure the skin's back to the bike, preferably to a flat panel like your dashboard. Zip ties up and around the back layer of the skin would probably work as a quick cheap solution.

If you'd like some thin aluminum to cut and bend into a "better" dashboard, I have a few pieces off an old networking box, and can give one to you to experiment with next time you come by.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:11 pm

Received my second headlight and taillight. Mounted the taillights in the same manner, but 2 next to each other. I used a scrap piece of ¾"x¾" stock. Rattle-canned it black, then screwed everything together. We'll see how this goes. One annoying thing, the first taillight I had has a motion feature. Either the new one is a slightly different model, ot I'm just not able to activate that setting.

Oh and my battery from cell_man has shipped. I'm totally pumped to get it. Hopefully this week.

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Re: e29er build thread (NEW BATTERY)

Postby jasonf150 » Tue May 08, 2012 12:04 pm

EGRIN 2.0!!
I finally received my cell_man tri battery. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!

Top speed w/o pedalling is about 34mph. I can start from a dead stop now. Night and day difference. It's awesome! Now I know why people wear full face helmets and run lots of lights. This thing hauls ass now. And that's in second gear. I can't get it to shift down to the smallest gear yet. I don't know how to fix it, so I'm waiting for the first of my "12 months of free tuneups" from my lbs. Hopefully they won't be doosh bags about it being electric. I asked when I bought it and they guy said they would probably still do them, we'll see. Wish I knew how to do this general bike maintenance myself.

my morning commute (average time):
- pedalling my road bike: 52 minutes
- ebike with first battery: 43 minutes
- ebike with new battery: 33 minutes

First I had to SQUEEZE the bag in there. It's made for a >19" frame, mine is 17". Then I had to squeeze the battery in there. Fits nice and snug. Doesn't bounce around and has the bag border to pad it. I moved my controller to the rear rack to clean up the handle bar area.

I can't describe how much I HATE that falcon ev logo. I need to sharpie it today.

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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Sun May 27, 2012 7:10 pm

So I finally got around to making my version of the magnetic reed switch regen brake. I got the reed switch from a window alarm I wasn't using. It's used to detect when the window opens to sound the alarm...duh. Anyway, it's normally open. So I had to find a way to move a magnet into range when I wanted the braking to start. I chose the rear brake. If I had a normally CLOSED reed switch, I would have used the brake lever. Since it's normally open, it required much more stuff, so I chose down be the rear brake itself. You can pretty much get what's happening by looking at the pic. When I pull the brake, it pulls the magnet closer to the switch, activating it. When I let go, it moves away. I took it for a test ride today and it worked pretty well. It didn't release the switch once and I had to get off, reach down and move it away. So I moved the magnet a little farther. That should fix it. I wish these switches had more of a fine line between on and off. Maybe it's cause they're cheap, maybe it's the unpredictability of the magnetic force, not sure. Anyway. What do you think? ideas, suggestions?

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Re: e29er build thread

Postby amberwolf » Sun May 27, 2012 11:15 pm

It's possible to use a reed as the opposite type by pre-biasing it with another fixed magnet near it, so that the magnet you move toward and away from it simply cancels out the fixed magnet. Can take some experimentation to figure out the best way to set it up. May take two totally different magnets to do this. I have not tested it myself yet, but was advised of the possibility by someone else here on ES (though I have forgotten who :oops:).

Also, AFAICR, neodymium-type magnets hold their field lines much closer than ceramic types, typically, so if you need a field that activates really close to the magnet only, use a neo, but if you need the field to activate from further away (larger range of motion and still stay activated) use a ceramic (assuming you have a large enough one to make that big a field). The neos are smaller for the same field, so if space is really tight you might have to use one.


I want to take the Fusin review kit inline ebrake switch apart and see how it works, but not until I either have to do it or until I'm done with the review, so I can fairly review it. :)

If you got hall-type ebrake levers with the kit, but don't want to use them, you can also simply take the hall out of the lever (often the whole little switch mechanism comes out easily enough) and install it wherever else is convenient. You could install the hall on the disc brake mount's cable-pull, where it passes thru the little tensioner. Then put the magnet on a clip along the cable or on the arm the cable clamps into, and then adjust position for when you want it to start ebraking vs physical braking.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby hillzofvalp » Mon May 28, 2012 1:31 am

Good to see more 29er builds. First off, I use 2284mm but it's different for every tire, tire pressure, and rider weight. I suggest going down a flat road and calibrating to a GPS. I took mine up to 40mph to get more resolution ;)

On my 29er I used a normally closed momentary switch and epoxied it with a mount onto my hall effect throttle. In depressed state, the switch is released. Because it is mounted on the hall effect throttle, it is easy to change the engagement time by moving the throttle up or down the handlebar as opposed to moving the brake lever. At first I had it set up so that if you barely touched the lever it would activate regen, but bumps on the road became exciting :!:

I dialed it in and am pleased with it. Most disc brakes can be or already are adjusted so that primary caliper engagement doesn't occur until 25-50% of the lever is depressed, so most likely the regen would be preceding the mechanical braking IF I was even using a rear caliper (too lazy to set it up with cromotor on the way).

switch was overpriced from radioshack. maybe $3. good luck!

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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:23 am

I rode it a full ride to work this morning (11.5m) without any loockups. I was concerned it would get stuck "on" and I would need to dismount the bike and fix it...or unplug it all together. I realized that the times the switch wasn't disengaging during my test was when I did a hard brake with that lever. So this morning, I used the regen brake until I really needed to stop, then I just added the front brake as needed. Seemed to work ok.


On another note, my 40a controller arrived, so I'll be getting that installed real soon. That'll probably result in a slight readjusting of how my controller and taillights are installed. Might move the controller to the back and move the lights to the sides of it.


On yet another note, is it true that if I wire up 4 12v automotive LED strips in parallel I can hook them up to my 52v cellman battery pack and the juice would be spread out among them? Sorry for the crude drawing, but you get the idea.

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Re: e29er build thread

Postby docnjoj » Tue May 29, 2012 11:31 am

Not parallel but in series could work. In parallel they would only be 12v. Series would be 48 volts.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:43 am

Ya, what I want to do is spread out the voltage between the 4 lights. I only want roughly 12v going to each light.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby docnjoj » Tue May 29, 2012 12:30 pm

In series each bulb would use 12 volts of the 48. In parallel they would each see 48 volts. That would not be good.
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Think of each bulb as a resistor.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Tue May 29, 2012 12:32 pm

so the way the image is wired is correct then?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby docnjoj » Tue May 29, 2012 12:33 pm

It looks like it but it is hard to tell where the wires go on the bulbs.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:55 am

So I have my new 12fet 40a controller installed from ebikes.ca (they also did my motor). What's strange is it seems my CA is reporting incorrectly on this new controller. For instance, I ride an identical path to and from work every day. On average, I was using between 6.5 to 7aH and about 340wh on my 11.5 mile commute. I've done 4 rides now on my 40a controller. And my "mileage" is better?!? Doesn't make sense right? I have a 9.2aH LiFePo4 from cellman. Over these last 4 rides I used between 5.6 and 5.9aH, 290wh. And on my ride home last night, at 5.991aH, my battery's BMS cut it off. So is my CA showing incorrect information? What would cause that? I bought my initial 25a controller along with my motor, so is there some sort of calibration they do that hasn't been done on my new controller?
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby LandKurt » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:36 pm

The CA has to be programmed with the proper resistance value of the shunt inside the controller. Your new controller likely has a different resistance value than the old one so the CA isn't calibrated correctly for it. You need to find the resistance value of the shunt in your new controller in milli-Ohms, hopefully written on the controller, and program it into the CA as the Rshunt value under the Advanced Setup Menu.
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Re: e29er build thread

Postby jasonf150 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:45 pm

Thanks!!
2012 Specialized Hardrock DISC 29er
Crystalyte HS3540 Rear
40A 12fet 72V controller
16S4P LiFePo4 triangle from cell_man
Cycle Analyst
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