Direct drive or geared?

[deVries]

Here is an awesome Chromoly Frame... it's about the best one I know of for an eBike, but it's not a step-through. Still, you should seriously consider this. Avoids lots of other hassles issues/problems with installing a rear motor that you might have on other bikes too.

$430 14" Free Shipping

http://www.upgradecycle.com/surly-troll-77759.html

A 14" Troll Frame by Surly... you can pick-up a good deal off ebay on these sometimes, imo, barely used or like new. (Unfortunately it's bike riding season now!)

Or, buy the frame cheap online & have your LBS build it with exact components to fit you. Or, get a complete bike from somewhere online. It has some trailer attachments you might be able to use too.

What is your inseam length?

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/troll

Though the Troll’s geometry is that of a 26"-wheeled mountain bike, it’s unlike most mountain bikes you’ll find on your local bike shop floor. It has ample clearance for 28/38/50t mountain-triple chainrings and room for 26 x 2.7" tires. The gusseted front triangle, with its sloping toptube, provides generous standover clearance even when running high-volume rubber.

Build it with a 100mm suspension-corrected fork, or roll the 4130 CroMoly Troll fork. The stock fork is spec’d with canti pivots, disc mounts, low- and mid-blade rack bosses and fender eyelets. Run a rack, fender and disc at the same time.

The Troll frame features horizontal rear-loading dropouts with a derailleur hanger, disc caliper mounting slots, plus rack and fender bosses. There’s a dedicated area for anchoring a Rohloff hub OEM2 axle plate, and we’ve included threaded M10 x 1mm holes for installing Surly trailer-mounting nuts or B.O.B. Nutz. The dropout design allows the simultaneous use of a rack, fender and disc brake. We include canti pivots, too. Options, options, options. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

Use it as a mountain bike, cruiser, commuter or touring rig. Make it your go-to utility tractor. Try out different tires and handlebars. Add some racks, build it with gears, or strip it down to a singlespeed drivetrain. Take it camping, ride it to the grocery store or session on your favorite single-track. Build it up, ride it for a while, then reinvent it.

Like many of our models, the Troll is available as a frameset or as a complete bike.

Surly Troll 14" for Small Person

Troll.jpg (30.65 KiB) Viewed 154 times

[deVries]

Because of the dog & trailer you have limitations about what you can do...

A) You could build a bike using that Surly frame as a base. Cheapest is to buy another USED bike with good components on it that could be switched over to fit the Surly Troll frame. Sometimes the LBS store can get you a good deal on components that are used from a bike or "old" but "like new" and kept at the shop as spares or old stock, etc.

B) Otherwise, you'll need to buy used, lots of possibilities, but it is a hassle to search around & try-out, etc.

C) Or, go to LBS stores to find a good fit & complete bike you like, THEN post-up the bike info here so we can check it out too.

D) Buying a complete bike online is not so good, because it might not fit you again & then have issues with it too!

E) I would not recommend buying a ready made eBike UNLESS you can get it in a very small frame size to fit YOU. Most "retail" eBikes are probably one size fits all, so you don't want to be doing that online anymore, again, UNLESS you can get it with the extra small frame size to fit YOU.

F)

I've not tried any of these for fit...but style wise (meaning seat to crank geometry) I'm looking at something like: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/collecti ... _lowstep/#
http://www.electrabike.com/Bikes/townie ... kes-ladies (although the fork is a problem on this one and I know that...checking craigsli

I think you need a steel or preferably a chromoly frame because of trailer & dog. These aluminum frames rear drop-outs will not be good for your application, IMO. Steel or chromoly it is, imo.

Please note there are several posts above this one to study your options too!

[lifereinspired]

OK, I realize that this is kinda crazy because it still has a aluminum frame but it's beefy and a different design. Is it impossible or a maybe?? http://www.schwinnbikes.com/bikes/urban ... ding-14668

[lifereinspired]

Oh, and if this question was answered and missed by me, please let me know but what about gearing? External vs internal, correct? Will more gears equate to easier riding with the motor (ie will 21 really be better than 7 with a good motor)?

[lifereinspired]

Sorry for the several questions but...I've found some lower end bikes that therefore use a full steel frame. Is that good for my purposes (needing a steel bike) or stupid because it's a low end bike (even if I have to upgrade some of the components).

[lifereinspired]

Obviously, this one would need several upgrades...but it IS a steel frame and I've also found several other 26" cruiser style bikes that are steel, not expensive and could be upgraded...

http://www.schwinnbikes.com/bikes/bike- ... eed#/specs

Just please let me know if I've gone completely insane with this line of looking. I'm going to go to a couple of LBS's hopefully tomorrow and just get the feel of a few frames so I know sizing, how I feel riding a 20" vs 26" etc. I've read that once people start riding 20" they absolutely love it. But that's just other opinions...not fact.

[deVries]

OK, I realize that this is kinda crazy because it still has a aluminum frame but it's beefy and a different design. Is it impossible or a maybe?? http://www.schwinnbikes.com/bikes/urban ... ding-14668

You can get a Dahon brand in chromoly that has 20" wheels too. Looks about the same as the Urban. Find these used on ebay too. I can't see the rear drop-outs to know the shape or strength on this Urban, so I have "to pass" & say no for now. Plus, it may be more tricky connecting a strong trailer for an 85-lb dog to the rear end of that frame. You would need to know ahead of time how the trailer can connect to that type of frame.

[deVries]

Oh, and if this question was answered and missed by me, please let me know but what about gearing? External vs internal, correct? Will more gears equate to easier riding with the motor (ie will 21 really be better than 7 with a good motor)?

Because a rear motor is also the hub too, there is no internal gearing possible. The rear motor will have its own sprocket set, which is usually either a 6 or 7 speed sprocket. So 2-3 chainrings up front on the crankset get you a 12, 14, 18, or 21 speed bike. With the motor all you'll need is a 12 or 14 speed bike, and that will be fine for the speeds you'll be going. But if the bike comes with 3 front chain rings, then that's just fine too.

Later, if you want to pedal more or something doesn't feel right, then you can always change those gears to get what you need.

[deVries]

Sorry for the several questions but...I've found some lower end bikes that therefore use a full steel frame. Is that good for my purposes (needing a steel bike) or stupid because it's a low end bike (even if I have to upgrade some of the components).

It's true that if you get a cheaper steel bike that it should be made with hi-tensile strength steel, AND, yes, the components may have to be upgraded too. A chromoly frame should be first choice if possible.

That Surly Troll frame would allow you to use smaller diameter tires too. Definitely 24" and maybe 20" too. You should be able to easily reach the ground & maybe flat-foot it too. What is your inseam length???

Also, I would avoid using a folding bike, since you will be using a trailer with heavy dog. You want a solid strong frame, so I personally would not choose a folder for this application, for sure.

[lifereinspired]

I'll remeasure again later (w/ husband's help) but when I measured before for bike frames, it was around 29" give or take a tiny bit. My idea would be smaller manageable frame that's easy to setup over - so low step, women's, really low top tube etc. I don't really care about the folding feature of the Dahons but I think I might like the idea of the smaller wheels (I was reading an interesting article that I accidentally stumbled across on LiveStrong: http://www.livestrong.com/article/14202 ... s-bicycle/). I don't want to go uber fast and I thought that I read that a motor on a 20" wheel will give more low end power. Am I completely backwards on that theory? Still looking for Chromoly frames and apparently Dahon and others make 20" compatible frames. How low would the stepover height be with that Surly frame if we went with 20" tires?

[lifereinspired]

We've already decided that we're going to an LBS tomorrow so I can "try on" some frames and wheel sizes. At least I can get an idea of what works best and where I'm most comfortable with bike control, etc. I'm excited about it!

[lifereinspired]

This is one of the primary dog trailers I'm considering for price/features/safety. http://www.thedogoutdoors.com/dog-bicyc ... about.html
Sometimes Amazon.com has it a little cheaper and I'd consider getting it from them for easy returns if needed. Can more than handle Siena's 70lbs and attaches to the left side of the back axle. There are videos on that page showing the connections if that's helpful for knowing compatibility with the motor.

[lifereinspired]

Calculating the standover height of the Surly troll w/ the standard 26" wheels will be 28.1" which is just going to me too much for me to manage. If the 20" wheels are a possibility, then we're talking about a possibility...

[lifereinspired]

Calculating the standover height of the Surly troll w/ the standard 26" wheels will be 28.1" which is just going to me too much for me to manage. If the 20" wheels are a possibility, then we're talking about a possibility...

[lifereinspired]

A cromoly 20"! Yay!

http://www.dahon.com/bikes/2011/boardwalk-d7

I might find others too...apparently all the Dahon steel is chromoly.

http://www.amazon.com/Dahon-Speed-D7/dp/B005TZ9S22

[WhatcomRider]

Since it doesn't seem you will be stressing the frame much I wouldn't get too hungup on cromoly vs. aluminum other than steel front fork for front hub motor as has already been discussed. For pulling a trailer I agree with others that rear hub would be best.

A bike with 20" wheels and rear-hub motor needs to have a long wheelbase in order to safely pull a trailer (otherwise imagine what could happen ). The only one I know of is the Juiced Riders ODK Utility bike (which may be beyond your price range) - http://www.juicedriders.com. It is specifically designed to be powered with a hub motor, front or rear, and has a relaxed riding position that might suit you well. The motorised ODK U500 model is sold out as far as I know, but you could save quite a bit by converting the Utility model. The 18Ah battery that fits the rack costs $600 but would give good range.

As for 26" bikes the Electra Townie is very nice, has various gearing options, and can be fitted with a front disc brake.

I wish you the very best in finding your dream e-bike and trailer combo for all the joy it will provide you and your lovely labradoodle.

[deVries]

This is one of the primary dog trailers I'm considering for price/features/safety. http://www.thedogoutdoors.com/dog-bicyc ... about.html
Sometimes Amazon.com has it a little cheaper and I'd consider getting it from them for easy returns if needed. Can more than handle Siena's 70lbs and attaches to the left side of the back axle. There are videos on that page showing the connections if that's helpful for knowing compatibility with the motor.

Yes, Amazon does have these cheaper sometimes. You'll definitely need the largest size, which is rated for up to 110-lbs & comes in blue. Read the Amazon reviews too.

I think it looks good, IMO.

[deVries]

Calculating the standover height of the Surly troll w/ the standard 26" wheels will be 28.1" which is just going to me too much for me to manage. If the 20" wheels are a possibility, then we're talking about a possibility...

Yes, 24" or 20" should work too & give you plenty of standover height. (I will verify with an expert on the 20" regarding crank-arm length.) I'm definitely thinking 20" IF there is no issues doing this. And, for your needs either 24" or 20" is my recommendation.

Btw, skip the idea of getting *any* folding bike for this application. Just want to repeat that in case someone else is reading this thread & is getting that idea too. Skip it.

[amberwolf]

Because you are pulling a trailer & 85-lb dog, you can not or should not use a front wheel mounted motor.

While it can be more difficult to handle a trailer loaded with a wiggly dog using a front motor, it's not necessarily a problem, depending on the balance of weight in teh trailer and on the bike.

In my experience with the 100lb Hachi or Nana (or sometimes the smaller and lighter Bonnie or Fred), when there is too much weight forward of the trailer wheel axle, and it pushes down too much on my hitch that is *behind* the bike rear wheel axle, it will take enough traction off the front wheel that the front hubmotor can have troulbe with spinout on startup, and sometimes traction in turns.

But using a trailer and bike that allows attaching the trailer hitch *forward* of the rear axle, like the 2-kid Bell trailer with a kennel top rather than the cloth kid-housing, that problem doesn't happen. It allows full weight to remain on the front wheel in almost all situations--the exception being an extreme turn at higher speeds, above 15MPH or so. Since it's really hard to turn with a trailer containing a wiggly dog at speeds above 5-10MPH anyway, this isn't much of a problem.

That Houndabout trailer is identical in frame layout/hitch/wheel style to the 2-kid Bell trailers. So it can work just like mine, with front or rear motor, depending on the rest of the weight balance of bike and trailer.

The weight of the hubmotor actually helps with front wheel traction in turns and such with the trailer attached, in most cases. When going too fast, the wheel scrubs instead of gripping and makes it pretty tough to control the turn, so it ends up far wider turning radius than normal, but the weight of hte motor actually helps this a little bit. Any othe rweight causing equal response, placed forward of the rear axle, would also help. (less weight is rquired the farther forward it is placed).


So it kinda depends on the trailer, the hitch placement, and the weight placement on the bike, for how it will behave with a front motor vs a rear.


I *can* say that almost always you will have noticeably better traction with a rear motor than a front, regardless of trailer or no trailer, with typical weight balances on a bike. If all the battery and stuff is placed over the front wheel (front rack, panniers, etc), then the traction in front would be enough better that it might be a tossup between front and rear traction. Depends on total weight balance.


All that said: Personally, having experimented with the identical motor first in front and then in the rear, I'd rather have a rear motor (which is why the upcoming Fusin review motor kit is a rear type), for most types of bike setups most poeple would use. I think you would probably be better off with a rear motor, as it simplifies quite a few "little" things, although it does complicate installation on some bikes (and thus tire changes and the like).

[deVries]

A bike with 20" wheels and rear-hub motor needs to have a long wheelbase in order to safely pull a trailer (otherwise imagine what could happen ). The only one I know of is the Juiced Riders ODK Utility bike (which may be beyond your price range) - http://www.juicedriders.com. It is specifically designed to be powered with a hub motor, front or rear, and has a relaxed riding position that might suit you well. The motorised ODK U500 model is sold out as far as I know, but you could save quite a bit by converting the Utility model. The 18Ah battery that fits the rack costs $600 but would give good range.

This is a 43-lb bike BEFORE adding any electrics. It also has too long a wheelbase for a trailer with a small person such as Rae in her weaker condition & state of health +future challenges. IMO. On the other hand, IF her husband doesn't mind "the look" of riding that "big thing" around, then it would make an excellent second utility/shopping bike that Rae could even ride *without* the trailer. Personally, I think it would be an excellent choice for Steven IF he can handle "the looks" & you see a need for its obvious "shopping" abilities. The price for the bike is very good, and it could be easily upgraded to an electric bike too. Thanks for the suggestion WhatcomRider.

[Chalo]

In my opinion (I'm a bike mechanic and dealer), you don't need chromoly, you really don't need disc brakes, you really really don't need 20" wheels, and you really really really don't need a folding bike. All the strength you get from small wheels and chromoly frame would be thrown away by the weak folding frame. But I'm not convinced you need anything special bike-wise at all.

However, if you are attracted to small wheels, low standover height, and chromoly steel frames, there is a bike almost any shop can get you for about $500, or roughly the same price as the Surly Troll frame with no parts on it:
http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Bully&cl1=BICYCLES


This seems like it would do a fine job of meeting your requirements.

Chalo

[deVries]

In my opinion (I'm a bike mechanic and dealer), you don't need chromoly, you really don't need disc brakes, you really really don't need 20" wheels, and you really really really don't need a folding bike. All the strength you get from small wheels and chromoly frame would be thrown away by the weak folding frame. But I'm not convinced you need anything special bike-wise at all.

However, if you are attracted to small wheels, low standover height, and chromoly steel frames, there is a bike almost any shop can get you for about $500, or roughly the same price as the Surly Troll frame with no parts on it.

Hey Rae, Chalo IS the bicycle expert I told you about.

I definitely love that 20" bike he referenced here. It's perfect for holding batteries, etc. Chalo also told me the 20" wheels would not work in the Surly Troll, so that's out the window. (The Troll would still work with 23-24" wheels, and give you plenty of stand-over height. IMO.)

But, buying an "off the shelf" bike like this 20" that Chalo just referenced is certainly a much better deal price wise. Chalo is also very certain you do not need disc brakes IF you setup the other brakes correctly. But I'll let Chalo comment about that, since he has that kind of expert experience & advice. Chalo is a "trusted source" of expert knowledge, when it comes to bicycles (and much more).

[spinningmagnets]

If you feel the Origin-8 bike shown above would work well for your needs, I recommend getting the Thudbster seatpost. I have one and I highly recommend it. It is available for about $120, so its not cheap, but it is well-made.

You may also consider BMX handlebars for a slightly more upright riding position.

Heres a link to a $21 wide comfort seat (I am 52) http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=805975

[warrah]

hello rae

You'll receive a lot of help from the endless sphere forums. I've used endless sphere almost exclusively to solve any problem i've encountered in my ebikes evolution. Your ebike buying experience will be much less painful then mine was as you are willing to seek advice and ask lots of questions. I suspect most people, most men anyway, learn primarily from trial and error, despite being aware that the endless sphere is here to help. Its a pride thing.

I read through this thread, and at some point it seemed as though the 'purchase complete ebike vs purchase parts separately' dilemma had been decided in favour of parts separately? and thats why youre considering various frame options now? Sorry if i've got it wrong, i might have missed something.

I thought i'd chip in on the frame issue. Cromoly will make sure your safe, the metal can bend with the additional force the motor exerts, whereas aluminium can become stressed with the motor forces, and might eventually break. Of course, lots of people can supply anecdotal evidence that 'my ebike is aluminium, and hasnt broken once', but physics is physics, and cromoly is the safety first option. Its a shame that the majority of bikes manufactured these days are aluminium.

If you are thinking of buying the parts separately, then there are several ways to do it. You could buy a frame, then an ebike conversion kit, which includes motor, controller, throttle/ebrakes, and sometimes (though not in the majority of cases) a battery. This route does turn the ebike into a bit of a project, but its totally do able, equivalent to a lot of household diy projects. Perhaps you are thinking of taking the bits off the ebikes you already have, and placing them on a new frame?

whatever the case, balancing weight is one of the first problems to solve. People have recommended placing the motor at the rear to make handling better with the dog trailer, which i would agree with. But it does cause an issue with placement of battery. If yourself/the motor/a rack mounted battery are all located towards the back of the bike, what tends to happen is the front pulls up when accelerating. This is one reason some people opt for front motors; it evens out the weight with the battery at the back and the motor at the front.

If the motor goes at the back, one way to balance it is to place the battery in the middle somewhere, or on a front wheel rack. These options are both diy projects, requiring some creativity.

These considerations can influence frame purchasing. For one thing, some frames dont come with holes to screw a rack into. Without a rack, placement of the battery has to be much more creative.

If you do wish to buy the parts separately, you'll beable to choose the motor you want for the kind of performance you want, and you'll be able to absorb some valuable experience in connecting the parts together, which will allow you to diagose and fix problems yourself.

If you purchase a complete ebike, beware of sales blurb. Most complete ebikes, and alot of ebike kits, are deceptively sold as 'no hassle all rounders'. No hassle all rounders dont exist. Learning why some things work and why some things dont work will help you get exactly what you want and avoid disapointment, and its really great that you are willing to ask questions and understand this subject. A competitive ebike industry isnt fully developed yet, there are few off the shelf solutions, and your approach of trying to understand is definately the best way to approach owning an ebike. The people on endless sphere forum will beable to give you realistic ideas of what different kits and ebikes can actually do in the real world, so ask as many questions as you can, and dont worry about questions being too newbie; knowledge may be an end in itself on other internet forums, and the people there can be judgmental about how much you have, but on endless sphere, i think knowledge is just a means to an end, the end being the ebike grin, the feel of riding. No one will mind where you start, they'll all just want to get you to the grin stage, however long it takes.

[Chalo]

I thought i'd chip in on the frame issue. Cromoly will make sure your safe, the metal can bend with the additional force the motor exerts, whereas aluminium can become stressed with the motor forces, and might eventually break. Of course, lots of people can supply anecdotal evidence that 'my ebike is aluminium, and hasnt broken once', but physics is physics, and cromoly is the safety first option. Its a shame that the majority of bikes manufactured these days are aluminium.

She's talking about using a front hubbie; I don't see how the frame material has any relevance to that. The motor tugging along on the fork doesn't apply forces to the frame nearly as large as those from just rolling over a bump. She should stay away from plastic ("carbon fiber") and ultra-light frames of any material, but aluminum is fine. A four pound frame made from aluminum is a lot stronger than a four pound frame made from chromoly, for example. (But if you're looking for a six pound frame, it may be much easier to find one made of chromoly or regular old high tensile steel.) I'm 6'8" tall and way over 300 pounds, and I've used aluminum frames for decades because I could get stronger ones in aluminum (in my size) than in steel.

The fork should be steel with sturdy tips, because it's more forgiving if something goes wrong with the torque arm.

Rachel,

As far as brakes are concerned, I think linear-pull brakes ("V-brakes") like those that come equipped on most applicable bikes should be more than adequate, and they are very cost-effective and easy to maintain. Make sure they are carefully adjusted and have good pads. If you need to have less lever effort, just have a local bike shop replace the brake levers with long blade motorcycle-type levers and that should do the trick.

There's no need to overthink this-- if you just want your e-bike to do a normal bike's job, then a normal bike is the right tool for that job. Take your own special needs into account, of course, but there's nothing so demanding about a sub-2hp electric motor that it overtaxes a normal bike.

Chalo