Should I work with what I have or upgrade

[JoeyB]

Hi, New to the forum. Have really enjoyed reading the posts. I have recently acquired a Dutch Sunrider Velomobile that currently has a Crystalyte motor, unknown controller (see pic), and 48V LiFePO4 battery. I want to increase the E power only speed of the vehicle. Can someone ID the Crystalyte motor in the pictures? Could it handle 96V? What type of controller is it? It has the older Cycle Analyst computer. I am hoping to achieve around a 30 mph cruise speed on E power. It has a 20" rear drive wheel, vehicle weight with rider approx 300 lbs, flat terrain. Any tips or help appreciated. I forgot to add that I seem to only be pulling around 400W according to the Cycle Analyst.

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[amberwolf]

Probably brushless, so most likley the motor itself will handle any voltage you care to throw at it...but the cotnroller probably won't, with out some upgrades to it. It might do 72V without mods, maybe--depends on the FETs, caps, and the input stuff for the low-voltage regulators/etc.

One possible issue is that the heat buildup inside the motor might be too much, given that it likely has very little airflow over it inside the velo shell. It might require cooling modifications to sustain the power levels needed for 30MPH, though with the velo shell those requirements may be dramatically lower than on a regular 'bent bike/trike. You might have to put a thermal sensor in there to keep an eye on it at first, to see how it reacts, and add cooling if necessary.

Cooling could be as simple as holes in the cover, or filling the hub partially with oil (ATF, actually), or as complex as ducted air or pumped liquid cooling.

My guess is it will work fine at the power levels needed without any of that, as long as you can get airflow across the casing itself, but you may have to experiment to be certain.

BTW, if you ever get tired of the velo, I'd love to get my hands on one....

[Lebowski]

BTW, if you ever get tired of the velo, I'd love to get my hands on one....

I rode one this weekend I went to some friends (who have one), to show of my e-bike.
They put me in the velomobile but forgot to tell me where the brake was . It took quite
some panic and sweat from my side, but luckely about 3 meters from the garage wall I managed
to do a flintsone-type braking with my feet through the bottom of the enclosure. It was a close call...

[dogman]

Looks like a kit from Grin Cyclery from about 4 years ago. Very likely it's a 406 or 405 crystalyte motor. It will take 72v fine, and the controller could well be 36v-72v. Likely it has a voltage range on a label on it somewhere, often under the bottom and not visible when installed.

At 72v it will heat up faster, but it can take it for ten miles or so I think. Others have.

If you want more, then a larger diameter motor with more heat shedding surface area, wider magnets, and perhaps even vent holes will help.

So if you are going to upgrade, a larger motor and higher discharge rate 72v battery is what you need most. Plus controller if it's not built for 72v. Start with the battery of course, if your controller does 72v.

[JoeyB]

Dogman, thanks for the reply. If you were me would you stay in the Crystalyte universe or try another brand? It is actually a 409 which is why it might be so slow. I am tempted to try the BMC because the smaller outside diameter would let me get a better lace pattern on the 20" wheel. I definitely want a controller that will let me control the current output from the CA and has regen capability. Any tips?

[wesnewell]

From these specs;
http://www.crystalyte.com/Mspecs.htm
You can see the unloaded rpm of the 400 series motors. The 409 is not the fastest wind by far, but I'm not sure newer Clite motors will give you much of a faster wind. I know my GM 1000W motor is rated for 470rpm which is a little faster, but I'd think you'd want one rated for at least 600rpm in a 20" wheel. Of course raising the voltage will always increase speed and torque. On a 20" wheel I wouldn't worry about cross lacing and a smaller motor will just heat up faster.

[JoeyB]

I'm just sitting here in my office and an idea occurred to me. I will just use my rapid prototyping machine to 3d print a air scoop and mount it through a hole cut in the fiberglass body concentric with the hub motor. So it sounds like I will go with a faster winding on the Crystalite, uprated controller, and probably a new CA. I need to be able to change in and out of 20 mph compliance depending on what situation I will be using the vehicle in. I also need cruise control. There are so many places to buy this stuff online it is a bit hard to choose a vendor. Would you go with Crystalyte, Infineon, or Kelly? Any substantive differences?

[pwbset]

It is actually a 409 which is why it might be so slow.

409s used to be brushed... so... better find out for sure...

https://www.google.com/search?q=crystalyte%20409%20brushed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[docnjoj]

You might get the kind of performance you are looking for on just 72 volts. Those old 409s were pretty torquey but slow winds. I too would check the controller since some were 36-72 volts from those years ago. You could add a couple of SLAs just for a test (in series) to see what it feels like. Definitely open up the controller and see what it is rated for in terms of caps and FETS.
otherDoc
edit: That velo is way cool!

[JoeyB]

It's going to be replaced any way you slice it. I wonder if they selected it that way so there is no way to be out of compliance with Dutch regulations

[docnjoj]

I don't know about Dutch regs but you could easily put 1000 watts through that motor. Just keep you eye on the cooling, as others have stated. If you run higher volts you could come down on the amp draw and perhaps keep temps OK. Then you would have to do "throttle management" or probably go faster than you intend. Those velos are slippery!
otherDoc

[docnjoj]

It is actually a 409 which is why it might be so slow.

409s used to be brushed... so... better find out for sure...

https://www.google.com/search?q=crystalyte%20409%20brushed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I thought they made a 409 brushless. Good point cause I have 2 409 brushed ones in the shed. Definitely pays to look inside the controller! Pictures please. Or open the motor which is a bit harder to do.
otherDoc

[docnjoj]

Yep they did make a 409 brushless for Europe.

http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/produ ... ctid=16228

otherDoc

[dogman]

409 is pretty slow. I assumed it would have been more likely to be a fast wind in 20" wheel. But not such a good assumption if you are in europe.

As for a motor replacement, chances are a 9 continent, muxus 9 continent, or any larger diameter dd humbmotor will get you a lot faster, unless you choose a slower winding again. You may not need any increase in voltage or new controller to get a lot faster.

Personally, I'm kind of a 9 c and 9c clone fan. Mostly just because I could get em much cheaper than crystalyte stuff.

[amberwolf]

Definitely pays to look inside the controller! Pictures please. Or open the motor which is a bit harder to do.

No need, just count the wires coming out of it. 2 = brushed, 8 = brushless sensored, 3= brushless sensorless.

(most of the time)

[John in CR]

Joey,

If you verify that it's brushless (3 larger wires and a set of 5 small ones for the halls going to the motor), then all you need is higher voltage for more speed unless you're looking for much more powerful acceleration. That means more batteries and a new controller. Yes, if it's brushless the motor will handle 96V without issue. According to the Ebikes.ca simulator the X409 (using a 408 sim and adjusting for the additional turn in the windings), it will get you to a 30mph cruising speed on about 83V from the battery, so you'll need 26-27s of Lifepo4 or 23-24s of Lipo or LiMN. You'll only be running 800W or less so the motor shouldn't be strained at all, though if it's a lot of stop and go, you may want to direct some extra air flow at the motor. Check how warm it getting under your hardest existing operating conditions to give you a baseline, and then also feel it for heat a number of times early on after the change.

If the motor is inside the velo with you, then it's going to be hard to beat the quiet little X409. A lot of the newer motors are noisier, which would be amplified inside a velo. If you wanted more like 40mph or better and far more zippy acceleration, then I'd have a different suggestion for you, but just for that kind of moderate speed, what you have is fine. If you've put a whole lot of miles on it, then I'd say crack it open and change the bearings, and coat the stator with some rust prevention, but there's always a risk of messing something up by opening a motor that is working fine. I'm of the mindset "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

If you do open it up, put alignment marks on each cover with a corresponding mark on the magnet backing ring. I use a center punch to put 1 dimple on each on one side and 2 on each on the other. That way everything can go back together exactly as before.

John

[dnmun]

when you say 96V do you mean 32S of lifepo4?

you may get 40mph out of the 409 on a 26" at 72V lifepo4.

go look on justin's simulator.

[Farfle]

The 400 series crystalyte BRUSHLESS motors, IMHO are fairly decent motors. They are the quietest motor you are going to find period. Plus, in a smallish wheel you can really put the power to them, my guess is that they can handle similar power to the 9C style motors, as they have a much wider stator, and much more copper, although they are a smaller diameter. (160mm as opposed to 200mm). I would stick with that motor, depending on what FETs / caps are in the controller, running it at a higher voltage/amperage should get you what you want.

[JoeyB]

Just took a minute to unscrew the controller and have a look around it and it seems to have a sticker saying "4820" on the back which I am going to assume means it comes from the Crystalite "Roadrunner" 4820 kit. See image

It appears to have 7 or 8 wires coming out of the back.

[JoeyB]

If you wanted more like 40mph or better and far more zippy acceleration, then I'd have a different suggestion for you,
John

What would be that suggestion?

Is there some place I can get pre made connectors to put batteries in series?

Thanks

[JoeyB]

when you say 96V do you mean 32S of lifepo4?

you may get 40mph out of the 409 on a 26" at 72V lifepo4.

go look on justin's simulator.

Great advice. The siumulator does not seem to have the 409 but the 408 shows 20 mph. In reality I get about 19. It indicates that if I switch to a 404 it takes me to 35mph. If I go to 72 V at stock config I get to about 30 mph

[dogman]

4820. Oh well, 48v 20 amp controller. It was possible you had a 36-72v 20 amp controller but you don't. Looks like a brushless controller to me.

Seems to me, that although that motor is a good motor, that the cheapest easiest upgrade is still to replace the motor with one that is a faster winding.
9continent and 9c clones, muxus, golden, conhis, etc tend to be the least expensive. The advantage will be no need to upgrade the battery or controller.

But no doubt, a 72v 20 amp controller and more battery voltage will pep up that motor.


Anderson powerpoles make good connectors for series or paralell connections since they are all the same. Not polarized into male and female like most connector types.

[docnjoj]

Now it still may be worth opening the controller to see caps and fets. Maybe they are rated high enough so you just have to add batteries in series to get 72 volts?
otherDoc

[JoeyB]

Ebikes.ca just relieved me of a few hundred dollars....Went with the HS3548 and popped for a new controller more for the regen and direct CA hookup. It will also give some room to expand if I ind myself short on range. I went right along and got a new direct connect CA also. So if anyone wants my old stuff I am sure it will be in the for sale forum in a week or so.

[Farfle]

Depending on where your located, I may buy that 409 from you. I have been looking for one for awhile.