New 60v Build. What can i do next?

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New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 25 2008 9:16am

Hey. I just converted my Schwinn S-30 full suspension mountain bike to an ebike. I took the cheap route at the time cause i didnt know any better but i bought a brushed WE 600w motor. I ran it fine at 36V. Ran it fine at 48v. Ive been running it at 60V for about two months. Has a pretty good assisted range of 15 miles. It has an unloaded free wheel speed of 67mph. Not sure what the loaded speed is havent paid attention... just added a cheap schwinn speedo today. Im currently running (5) 12v 12ah SLA in a MTX trunk bag. Im running the stock 36v controller @60v unmodified. Im thinking its a 20A controller. I havent had any trouble whats so ever. The motor does get a tad bit warm. Im wanting to use this as a daily commuter. My current batteries wont take me the full lenght of my trip and back to to work. Im willing to spend some money prob in the battery department. I wanted to get two ping ping Lithium packs off ebay a 36v and a 24v 20ah pack and wire them in series to get the 60v. Or possible get 5 (18ah) SLA. Im satisfied with the controller performance. Im a robust fellow i dont need the super torque i can pedal. Most of the hills where i live... speed and momentum is all i need to get through them. Im thinking i need some battery monitoring device. Im asking for any suggestions at all on what i should do. A new hub motor is out of the question for the most part. I want to go up to 72v possibly higher but i dont want to modify a controller and clueless on where to find one in the US.
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by TylerDurden » Apr 25 2008 10:03am

You might consider running 48V of Ping and see how it goes. With less weight and less Peukert sag, you could be all set. Plus, a pingpack could be removed and charged at your desk/work area.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Jozzer » Apr 25 2008 11:09am

For battery monitoring you'll be wanting one of these.. http://ebike.ca/drainbrain.shtml.
Watever you do with batteries, the first improvement would be to get them offt he back of the bike. Nothing makes a bike feel as poo as all that wieght high up on the rack!
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Jozzer » Apr 25 2008 11:10am

Oh, and welcome to the forums BTW:)
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by ngocthach1130 » Apr 26 2008 3:29am

Welcome to the forum and also more importantly the Electric Schwinn S club. LOL. Many of us own the Schwinn S series bike and they've proven to be great conversion choice. Since you have a brushed motor. I suggest you check out http://tncscooters.com/. They have cheap brushed controller which you can mod with some soldering skills and patience. At 60V you're definitely going to need a torque arm for the front. It will rip itself out in no time.

BTW where did you get that rack? Does the joint near the seat post pivot and move? Does it function well with the full suspension? I MUST HAVE IT

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » Apr 26 2008 3:56am

Whoa, you've got a setup almost identical to mine (only my battery bag is a backpack :wink:).

So the motor works well at 60V, you say? Ehhhhhxcellent 8). I've been planning on doing that myself. Only I don't want to get ANOTHER charger. I have a 12V, 24V, 36V, and now a 48V charger.

Also I'd need torque arms.
icecube57 wrote:I wanted to get two ping ping Lithium packs off ebay a 36v and a 24v 20ah pack and wire them in series to get the 60v. Or possible get 5 (18ah) SLA.
Get the PingPacks. You really willing to carry around over 60lbs of batteries with you?
icecube57 wrote:Im thinking i need some battery monitoring device. Im asking for any suggestions at all on what i should do.
Cycle Analysts (aka DrainBrain) are nice and feature packed, but A Watts-Up/Doc Wattson is cheaper (I paid $60 shipping included for mine).
icecube57 wrote:I want to go up to 72v possibly higher but i dont want to modify a controller and clueless on where to find one in the US.
AFAIK, there are no brushed controllers in a reasonable price range that will go that high. They're more designed for big motors that pull hundreds of amps.

I plan on modifying my YiYun 36V controller. Only I'm one f***ing 4110 short after I modify the Golden Motor controller :x.


BTW, have you checked the brushes on your BD36? I'd like to know how fast 60V wears them out...
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 26 2008 3:08pm

I havent checked the brushes. The motor still is pretty new about 3 months. I know the higher I go the faster they wear out. I know the signs that tell me i have worn brushes. Havent seen any of them yet. The motor does get warm so i know there has to be an energery loss. Ive seen pictures of what can happen to the brush assembly if it gets to hot. Trust me it does get hot. You know that unmistakeable hot metal smell. But its never like gonna give me like 3rd degree burns. You can leave your hand on the motor.Torque arms... I havent really seen my forks flex nor does it seem like it wants to pull out of their seat where they are mounted. I have them tighten them pretty tight. Im assuming with such a low amperage controller i should be alright. It is a dead stop controller and i dont think it has that the motor has that much low end torque to be prying anything loose or running off anywhere. I would prob would compare it to the sparrow as far as size and performance. The bike is a little top heavy. My bike is 37lbs by its self. I bought it because i like the quality of the welds all around the bike and im a robust fellow. 287lbs to be exact. The bike holds up extremely well and very comfortable long distances. I dont notice the extra weight all that much. I used to be the mule to pull two passenger un assisted trikes so my legs are strong but how often do u want to carry around dead weight. Im trying to get somone to fabricate so diamond plate steel boxes that i can bolt on to hold my slas.. Im def getting away from them but id like to have something nice bolt to the frame of the bike in a lower position. Im reluctant to do that because it will throw the balance off on the bike. 5 9lbs slas is such an odd number and weighs 47lbs. If i do get the ping batteries ill prob use my rack because they will be protected and i can grab an go and charge at work. If i can get a 5-10 m (20 round trip) commute at full throttle with average pedaling along with the motor to where im not hot and sweaty for work then this will pay off tremendously. Im seriously thinking of building a dual voltage system and having a switch to switch voltage between 36 and 60. Im afraid this will un balance the pack but it will give me an option to extend the range and use the extra voltage when needed for speed or hill climbing. I may be stressing the controller out running it that high but im impressed with the cheap POS. It doesnt get warm lik others say or claim theirs does. They prob are running way more expensive controllers than stock one i have.. It down right small and dainty. I opened it up nothing looks burned or brown. Traces are in perfect shape. I can find the company that make my motor but i cant find any controller specs. It seems to be a chinese hub motor made by Wuxi Aote Mechanical Electrical CO. A company based in taiwan. http://www.aotedj.com/english/company.htm but i dont see my model on their site to get any specific information on the motor or controller. I prob will switch to a brushless rear will cruiser motor from crystalyte but im moving and whatever funds are left over is what im going to use to get my battery packs. If im not mistaken according to their site my efficeny on my motor should be doodoo at 60v if compared to a similar hub motor on site 36v@16A 87% 48v@12.5A 83% I can only guess at 60v 60v@75%???? probably

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 26 2008 3:14pm

The website one of you recommened. That controller looks pretty nice but i dont think i want such a high discharge current. Torque reason and distance. 60-100A would rape a ping pack and screw around with their bms. They already dont want me to wire them in series... imma do it anyway. Do you think the load balancing between the packs would suffer much?

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » Apr 26 2008 5:58pm

icecube57 wrote:Torque arms... I havent really seen my forks flex nor does it seem like it wants to pull out of their seat where they are mounted.
It's not the forks that break; it's the drops. There is an incredible amount of force on the axle when you use a hub motor. An analogy for some of the more powerful ones is to imagine a person standing on the end of a 6" wrench.
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by kbarrett » Apr 26 2008 7:19pm

Those bolts on the hub motor want to spin inside the drops ... if you let them, you will end up with round holes where your flat edged drop outs were, and a set of motor wires twisted off the motor.
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 26 2008 7:26pm

i get what ur saying ill have to inspect and give it a closer look possibly buy some torque arms. But its a beefy fork and drop outs ill take a picture asap

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by kbarrett » Apr 26 2008 7:34pm

icecube57 wrote:i get what ur saying ill have to inspect and give it a closer look possibly buy some torque arms. But its a beefy fork and drop outs ill take a picture asap
Look ... if you do nothing else, buy a cheap 10mm wench, and bang it with a hammer until it fits tight on your motor's arbor/axle flats. Bolt it in with your usual washers and crap, and hose clamp the box end to your fork.

Trust us on this ... you want some kind of torque arm on that front fork, even if the dropout is steel.

If it's aluminum, and you have no torque arm, you are risking your life. Having the front wheel leap off the bike in traffic at 20+ mph is too exciting for my blood ...
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » Apr 27 2008 1:05am

It's a Schwinn S-series, so he has a 6mm steel fork. Pretty strong, but I worry about mine anyway at 48V and 30A.

And while they are beefy, they are by no means invincible. There's a pic around here somewhere of one of them ripped apart by an X5(?).
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by ngocthach1130 » Apr 27 2008 1:59am

Sorry to ask again but where did you get those rear cargo rack. It seem to be made for suspension bike. Does it pivot. My bike is in deep need of those rack because i'm afraid mine will fail soon.

Yeah and brushed motor controller tend to go wide open throttle when they pop their fets instead of freezing up like brushless controller. So Even at 36V. If those fets blow would mean you get a short to your motor and that produce a lot of torque.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 27 2008 3:37am

It came with the kit. Its supposed to be a heavy duty rack that supports 50lbs... prob more if i wanted to push it. It pivots near the top. It attaches to the bolt that tightens the seat post. I was able to use it and keep the quick release lever in place on the seat and the rear axel. Im surprised at this forum. Im waiting for someone to rip on me and tell me how weak this motor and tell my to upgrade to an x-4 or x-5. I believe it is under rated. Im definetely pushing its limits. Ive seen the pictures of the melted brushes and everything but thats was almost three years ago . Things might have changed. I do believe it is a not the best quality motor... its brushed defintely not efficent. Hard to find parts. I wish i could compare it to something. or find someone light enough to do some real world benchmarking ... and i wish i had a cycle analyst to post battery consumption results. I realize 60v is not to common. Atleast for the brushed motor crowd. Things get expensive after 48v. And probably alot of you have similar and identical motors laying around collecting dust. I guess i may be the guiena pig pioneer to see how far can we go with this. Im reading more and more and tempted to get an x-5 and go all out for a 45mph bike at 90+V. This is getting addictive to the point where money is no object. Gas is getting high... i got screwed out of getting a hybrid car two times this year this is my alternative to sticking it to the man.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » Apr 27 2008 5:45am

icecube57 wrote:Im surprised at this forum. Im waiting for someone to rip on me and tell me how weak this motor and tell my to upgrade to an x-4 or x-5.
We don't hate. :D
icecube57 wrote:I guess i may be the guiena pig pioneer to see how far can we go with this.
You too :P? All I need is some torque arms and I'm prepared to run 72V on it. I don't really care what happens to this one now, since I have a (brushless) Golden Motor that will replace it in the garage. If all goes well, the BD36 will go on a 20" BMX at 72V and the Golden Motor will go on the Schwinn S40 with the same pack.
icecube57 wrote:This is getting addictive to the point where money is no object.
We need a word for this. My vote is for electromotiphilia (ee-lec-tro-mot-ih-fil-ee-a).

electromotiphilia (n): a condition in which one is inclined to pay little or no heed to the cost of components required for the creation, use, or upkeep of an electrical traction system.
ex: A number of members of the Endless-Sphere forums have developed advanced cases of electromotiphilia.

:P
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by ngocthach1130 » Apr 27 2008 10:33am

Link wrote:A number of members of the Endless-Sphere forums have developed advanced cases of electromotiphilia
No kidding. Some member on this forum spend 700 bucks on just internally geared chainring so they can happily pedal along with their motor at high speed.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by lazarus2405 » Apr 27 2008 2:22pm

Im waiting for someone to rip on me and tell me how weak this motor and tell my to upgrade to an x-4 or x-5. I believe it is under rated.
Nah, we're pretty friendly here. We'd rather bring more people into the EV club than chase 'em away. :D

And... I may love my x5, but it isn't for everyone. I may want to convince you to get a more powerful motor when you're shopping for one, but once you've made your choice, cheers and hope it serves you well. If you're happy with it, that's what counts.

All of these motors are really underrated, for various reasons. I personally love the "750w" motors running happily at 72v and 40a. I say push your motor until it dies, and then make sure to tell us what it lived through. :mrgreen:

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » Apr 29 2008 8:02pm

I mysteriously came into some money.(whistles innocently looking at his plastic card) If i wanted to build something illegal but practical what would you buy. What voltage would you use. Lipo is a must obviously. Which hub motor. I was considering a Pheonix Cruiser or Racer on 26 Inch rim @ 72v maybe 84v if a stock controller would let me over volt that high. My goal is 40-45mph. with possible a 2500 dollar budget.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by lazarus2405 » Apr 29 2008 9:15pm

Oh my... Oh my, this is indeed a fun state of affairs.

First, if this mysterious money is something that you'll be paying interest on, I'd advise you to be very careful.

Anyway, I would suggest you make a new thread. It's a completely different build, right? Try to make the topic's title descriptive, so that others who would later want to learn from your experiences could find it easily.

So, I'll see you there. :mrgreen:

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » Apr 29 2008 9:26pm

A 5304 (which is a Pheonix Cruiser, BTW) in a 26" rim would do about 45mph nicely. 8)

I'm a total torque whore myself, so I'd sacrifice a little top speed for the power of a 5305 at 96V in a 20" rim. :twisted:

But, yeah. Probably a good idea to make another thread.
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by joystix2 » May 01 2008 10:42pm

I also have a BD36 and have been riding for the past year at 36V. I think its about time I go up in voltage. Can you tell me what speeds you were getting at 48 and at 60V. Thanks

Ric
Ebikes:
1) DiamondBack Ascent Full Suspension
Clyte Phoenix 5303, Clyte 36-72v 35amp controller, 56v 9ah Milwaukee Lithium Setup,
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2) Downtube 8FS Full Suspension
Clyte 405 20" wheel, Clyte 24-48v 20amp peddle first controller,
56v 9ah Milwaukee Lithium Setup - Top Speed - 31/32mph

3) Micargi Bronco 3.0 Stretch Beach Cruiser
1000wt Front MAC motor. 52V12.5Ah Lipo pack. 20ah Controller

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by Link » May 02 2008 1:38am

joystix2 wrote:I also have a BD36 and have been riding for the past year at 36V. I think its about time I go up in voltage. Can you tell me what speeds you were getting at 48 and at 60V. Thanks

Ric
I use a 30A controller and a 26" rim with mine. Tops out at about 27mph with fresh batts. Probably would go a little faster if they weren't so horribly undersized (4.5Ah).
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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by icecube57 » May 09 2008 6:44pm

I got a ping pack wasnt able to get two like i orginally planned. I was supposed to get a 36v and a 24v 20ah packs. I ended up getting a 48v 20ah. And im going to pair it with two 12v 12AH SLA. They fit neatly in my trunk pack with room for chargers. I did load tests on a 20ah sla and the two 12AH slas in parallel. I had less of a volt drop running the two in parallel than the one 20ah pack by its self. Im looking to buy a new front crank to be able to pedal with my bike at higher speeds. Going to add rear disc brakes. Still waiting on getting a cycle analyst. I havent been able to do any extended range test to get distance but its well over 20m. Normally i wait for the slow down due to the voltage sag but it stays pretty solid all the way through the discharge even with the sla batteries wired in parallel series configuration. Still trying to scout a bike for my x5 build. This S-30 bike is a stout frame but the full suspension limits the storage spots on where you can jam extra batteries. Wish ping made a 12v pack. Im kinda stuck with this configuration until i upgrade my controller to a different controller and go to 72v.

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Re: New 60v Build. What can i do next?

Post by knoxie » May 11 2008 5:11pm

Hello

Nice build!! and yep get some torque arms, well at least one! at those sort of power levels even cheap steel forks are under a lot of stress, maybe 70 foot lbs and the dropouts, the 10mm wrench is a good idea if you want to do something quick, I did break one on my BMX but that was because the spanner was taking the full load (the dropouts on the BMX were wider) if your drops are the same as the flats then the combination of the 2 x sides and the spanner should be ok, remember as you look at the wheel the axle will be trying to turn clockwise, fit your torque arm accordingly.

Hows the ping pack doing? you can mix chemistries as well, the 2 x 12AH batts in parallel should be ok for 10AH and if you can get the packs inside the frame that would help the handling, thats a lot of weight on the back, I only have a little weight on the back at my bike is twitchy, you get used to it but its not perfect.

If you go for an X5 I can only thoroughly recommend them, I have just fitted one after having a Puma for such a long time, they are amazing motors, not as torquey as the Pumas but at 60V you will hit 37-40mph on the flat.

One other thing, if you stick with the Brushed controller please make sure you fit a kill switch, if your controller fails on you its very likely that the fets bill blow short and you will go full throttle, if you go for an X5 you can fit a stop switch to the levers on the brakes or do as I did and just fit a little mini moto kill switch, this works well, its very important with any high power e-bike but esp a brushed one.

Good luck with the bike

Knoxie
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