New Build Advice Please!!!!!

[mark133]

Hi all this is my first post and I am from the UK,

I’m looking to build an electric bike from scratch other than I have a 48V 15ah battery with its BMS already, so my shopping list contains the following 3 items:

1. Electric Hub

2. Controller

3. Donor Bike

I will mainly be using this bike for off-road i.e. woods and dirt tracks, I not to bothered about a fast top end but want more bottom end power.

HUB
The hub I would be looking at possibly would be the Crystalyte HT 3525 rear wheel motor in rim.

Controller
The battery I have is just a battery to start with and would look to up that at a later date to 72v ??ah so my controller needs to cover that for the future, I read lots of people like the Lyen controllers but am not sure which one I would need or do I stick with a controller from Crystalyte (72Volt 45A digital sensor less controller for brushless motor) as this is the only one I can see covers the 48V-72V.

Bike
Marin Attack Trail 6.8

Any advice would be much appreciated as I know there is a wealth of knowledge here

[mvly]

some people here will ask you about your budget.

But so far, what you suggest looks good.

Good luck on the build.

[mark133]

As for the budget if I go with the hub that's 315 euros ($400) and the controller 250 euros ($315) and the bike 1250 euros ($1550)

Cheers

[dogman]

Don't buy a controller that sucks more amps than your battery can supply. What exactly do you have for a battery? It may be able to supply only 30 amps max, and will not last as long if you ask it for the max.

I'd say the motor choice is fine. You might have to settle for a lower amp 48v controller for now though. Those are fairly cheap. A more powerful controller later won't cost near as much as your high discharge rate battery and charging system will.

Getting sensors in that motor? High power off road use is not likely to work well sensorless.

[NeilP]

Careful if you buy from Crystalyte europe...they are not very reliable try contacting Crystalyte direct in China, or get it from one of the guys on the board here.

[mark133]

The Battery that Ive got is stated as follows on the web site:

"48volt 15amp Lithium Battery

The Xipi Lithium Battery delivers 48Volts at 15Amp hours. We don't make any spurious claims about the range of our batteries, instead we publish what our customers say on our testimonials page.

There are to many variables when it comes to what battery will and wont do!

Come with a 12 months warranty. Includes slide plate & battery charger.

We warranty that our battery will have 50% of its original capacity at 12 months, this a consumable product.

Price: £519 including Delivery"


So im beleive its a LIPO battery but not much else.

Would you recomend a Lyen or just go with a Crystalyte controller? (just your personal opinion, wont hold you to it)

Do you advise a sensored version so as to be able to monitor tempreture or is there something else it measures? (I am a newbie)

Thanks

Mark

[mark133]

Careful if you buy from Crystalyte europe...they are not very reliable try contacting Crystalyte direct in China, or get it from one of the guys on the board here.

Thanks for that as i was going to order from Crytalyte Europe once I had confirmed what I would need

Mark

[NeilP]

Look out for the name Justin on the forum here.
His store is here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_motors.php

[Chalo]

There's not much room to mount anything on that bike. No normal round straight tubes either. It's really not designed to carry anything, and an e-bike must carry quite a few things. How to you intend to do it in this instance? Tape? Rope?

Folks gotta remember the bike itself is a platform for a person to pedal and an electric motor to propel. You can decide it's cool to have 6" of travel or 27" of travel at both ends, but if the implication is that the platform becomes unsuitable for its role, then it's a better idea to scale back on that part of the project in favor of the whole.

Chalo

[mark133]

There's not much room to mount anything on that bike. No normal round straight tubes either. It's really not designed to carry anything, and an e-bike must carry quite a few things. How to you intend to do it in this instance? Tape? Rope?

Folks gotta remember the bike itself is a platform for a person to pedal and an electric motor to propel. You can decide it's cool to have 6" of travel or 27" of travel at both ends, but if the implication is that the platform becomes unsuitable for its role, then it's a better idea to scale back on that part of the project in favor of the whole.

Chalo

I plan to put the battery in a rucksack and mount the controller under the seat running down the seat post

Mark

[mark133]

There's not much room to mount anything on that bike. No normal round straight tubes either. It's really not designed to carry anything, and an e-bike must carry quite a few things. How to you intend to do it in this instance? Tape? Rope?

Folks gotta remember the bike itself is a platform for a person to pedal and an electric motor to propel. You can decide it's cool to have 6" of travel or 27" of travel at both ends, but if the implication is that the platform becomes unsuitable for its role, then it's a better idea to scale back on that part of the project in favor of the whole.

Chalo

I plan to put the battery in a rucksack and mount the controller under the seat running down the seat post

Mark

photo.JPG (163.67 KiB) Viewed 453 times

something like this

[Chalo]

Aye, well... that's certainly your prerogative.

But if someone I knew were riding a motorcycle so ill-considered that it was being fueled directly from a jerrycan carried on his back, I'd wonder what was the matter with the bike. And what was the matter with him.

Chalo

[motomech]

Yeah, and that would be a LiCoMg battery.
lugging around 20 lb.s in a knapsack would get old really quickly, especially off-road.

[NeilP]

Would you recomend a Lyen or just go with a Crystalyte controller? (just your personal opinion, wont hold you to it)

Do you advise a sensored version so as to be able to monitor tempreture or is there something else it measures? (I am a newbie)

Oh bollocks. F ing computers. Or forum software. I wrote you an explanation of Sensored or not and the differences, and now when I check forum a few hrs later I see my reply did not make it
So brief reply from iPhone at 2.30 in morning from bed

Sensored or not is how controller does the timing of pulses of power down the 3 phase wires to motor. Nothing to do with temp monitoring
Sensored is 3 thick wires and 5 small in bundle with multipin plug

Sensor less is just 3 wires for power and the sensing is done by controller sensing back voltage (EMF) up the wires from motor to controller
Think of signals up the sensor wires like ignition timing on car telling controller when to send power down thick wires

Sensored, usually smoother at slow speed, just pulling off. Sensors less ones that I have ridden tend to be a bit jerky at start up till wheel gets some speed and starts creating back EMF for controller to sense

Lyen controller anyway. Will be programable and better service and backup if it goes wrong. If you kill it Lyen would repair it if possible. Xlyte europe will just sell you another, not sure if Kenny at Xlyte China does controller repairs or not.

Lyen contgollerv will accept a Cycle Analyst which shows battery usage, speed current etc etcc. See the CA page at Ebikes ca. You will want to get one

Oh, ditch the battery on the back idea, I tried it, on my first prototype build. It is seriously crap. Wire hanging down, constantly having to plug and unplug, and then sometimes forgetting to use Pre charge resistor, which causes big spark which can daamage controller, and slowly destroy the power plugs
The wire will sometimes get caught in leg as getting on/off, caught in trees, hedges branches etc, or get loose and start rubbing on rear wheel or in worst case the chain
Then sometimes you forget go unplug, and you pull the wires

Mount low on frame, in triangle, . If you must mount on rear rack, make your own HD one. The shop bought ones will not be strong enough, Plus having the pack weight high and rearward makes handling hideous.. Even worse if you have a cheap lightweight rear rack that starts to wobble with the weight

[mark133]

Hi Neil

Thanks for that explanation, I agree the battery I have was just to get me going and most definitely will be changed for something a lot better

In your opinion which Lyen controller should I go for?

On the ebike.ca web site I don't seem to be able to see the HT 3525 hub is there a version for the states that has a different pt number

Thanks

Mark

[NeilP]

Oh, or try these guys
http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/

They call them different names. Brute kits are I think the HT Motors
E mail them both and ask

[NeilP]

Well looking at yor proposed mounting position, the 12 FET would fit best.
18 FET obviously better for more current, but you can put a good load of current through a 12 FET unit.

While you are ordering from Lyen (and I think everyone if they have the cash should do this), is buy one of his 6 FET mini monster sensorless controllers, how much are they.$79 USD ..so £50.

When it arrives, look at it admire it, test it and put it back in its box, for the rainy day that will come when you destroy either your main controller or blow a Hall sensor on your motor

You can then fish out the 6 FET and me back on the road in under an hour and not have to wait weeks to get another controller.

Oh, just though. Unless modified by the supplier, I think that all the new Xlyte motors (HS / HT series) are all sesnor-less. I know some suppliers were fitting halls, or getting Xlyte to fit them, can't remember, but there was issues with not enough clearance and wires getting trapped and shorting.

other suppliers off the top of myhead ont he forum here are
Maxwell65 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39499 http://www.ebikedeal.com/

Methods http://www.methtek.com/category/motors/

Cellman in china ( Paul also a Brit) he supplies controllers motors and battery packs http://www.emissions-free.com/id47.html


have I missed any other forum member guys?

[dogman]

Back to beating the battery dead horse, 48v is the voltage, and 15 amp hours is the capacity, or size of it. Did they specify the amps it can discharge? Amps is the amount of current the battery can stand to allow to flow.

Based on the price you paid, you very likely have a pack made of 2c cells. 2c means you can let amps flow at the same rate as the size of the battery, times 2. So that would be 30 amps max most likely. Even less amps on the controller would help the battery last longer. No sense in buying a high power controller only to find your battery bms shuts off the battery every time you touch the throttle.

Buy a cheap 20-25 amp controller that the battery can tolerate for now. Then get a higher powered controller later, when you have spent money on a battery capable of supplying more amps.

[NeilP]

Good advice, I had looked at it from motor perspective

So if you go for Lyen, then a 6 FET will do you

[mark133]

Back to beating the battery dead horse, 48v is the voltage, and 15 amp hours is the capacity, or size of it. Did they specify the amps it can discharge? Amps is the amount of current the battery can stand to allow to flow.

Based on the price you paid, you very likely have a pack made of 2c cells. 2c means you can let amps flow at the same rate as the size of the battery, times 2. So that would be 30 amps max most likely. Even less amps on the controller would help the battery last longer. No sense in buying a high power controller only to find your battery bms shuts off the battery every time you touch the throttle.

Buy a cheap 20-25 amp controller that the battery can tolerate for now. Then get a higher powered controller later, when you have spent money on a battery capable of supplying more amps.

No it was never stated how many amps it could discharge.

[mark133]

Okay on the LYEN website he shows he has a:

Crystalyte 5305 v2/Phoenix Brute II (sensored rear, silver color) $349 (will email to see if available) thought you couldn't get them any more?

Think I would order 2 controllers:

1. 6X4110 MINI MONSTER PROGRAMABLE CONTROLLER LYEN EDITION $79

2. 12X4110 MOSFET EXSTREME MODDER CONTROLLER LYEN EDITION $129 (for when I get a decent battery)

3. Crystalyte Advance Battery Management (handlebar mount display unit for direct drive hub motor with hall sensors only) $99

Addon for controller 2:
Cycle Analyst connector, external USB-TTL connector for USB-TTL programming adapter, regenerative braking enable/disable jumper $10

USB-TTL programming adapter $15

Mark

[NeilP]

No it was never stated how many amps it could discharge.

True but from the info you gave, I reckon dogman did like I did and used google and came up with the site you are getting your battery from

http://xipi.co.uk/Welcome.html

or are likely to have got it from, given the name you used. it looks like a fairly standard e-bike type battery so i reckon his guess at max output is about right. If I have got the site of the battery correct, then their site gives no info on the battery other than 48V 15Ah. Admittedly it was just a cursory glance over the site, maybe info is buried in there somewhere.

Okay on the LYEN website he shows he has a:

Crystalyte 5305 v2/Phoenix Brute II (sensored rear, silver color) $349 (will email to see if available) thought you couldn't get them any more?

Think I would order 2 controllers:

1. 6X4110 MINI MONSTER PROGRAMABLE CONTROLLER LYEN EDITION $79

2. 12X4110 MOSFET EXSTREME MODDER CONTROLLER LYEN EDITION $129 (for when I get a decent battery)

Good so far. think they maybe calling the new motors by the old names...Only Lyen will tell you for sure what exactly he is selling

3. Crystalyte Advance Battery Management (handlebar mount display unit for direct drive hub motor with hall sensors only) $99

Addon for controller 2:
Cycle Analyst connector,

Stop right there...step away from the credit card sir, you are about to make a big mistake

Both the Crystalyte Advance Battery Management display (aka APM) and the Cycle Analyst connector, [/quote] cycle analyst both use exactly the same plug type, but both are completely incompatible. Do not get the APM, just go for the CA, and ensure both controllers have plugs wired to suit the CA.
I did explain about the difference between in my post that never appeared. The CA has some niceish features..but give little real battery info..No Ah display or battery cycles etc. Go with the CA. Ed Lyen stocks them.

[mark133]

Thanks guys for all your input it's much appreciated. (saving me from wasting money)

So on the LYEN website when it offers addons for the controller ie.

Cycle Analyst connector, external USB-TTL connector for USB-TTL programming adapter, regenerative braking enable/disable jumper $10

Does this mean for $10 you get all of the above or will it be $10 just for the Cycle analyst connector and further $10 for each of the other options?

Mark

[NeilP]

not sure, think it is each item

[NeilP]

see this thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40833