Packcycle 2.5 (watercooling mods in progress)

[Link]

So you bought Dirtdad's pack? The half dead liFePO4s?
Wait, doesn't that make it a Half-Life pack?

I do believe that you just got served, Mr. Freeman.

[Link]

What have we here? A C'lyte 406?

This thing's pretty massy. Way more metal than the BD-36. I'm thinking I'll put some copper tubing in it and liquid cool it for the novelty. That and upgrade the puny phase wires. Anyone else done 5kW on a 400 series before?

[Ypedal]

Since you have that sucker apart..

If the bearings are loose in the side covers ( like if you can just push them out by hand ) consider a light smear of JB weld or other equivalent high temp epoxy on the outer race ( sticking the bearing permanently to the cover, but not to the motor side so the covers can be removed at some point in the future.. should you ever have to do that )..

Sometimes you get a good motor and the bearings are tight fitting and life is good.

[Link]

OH WHAT'S THIS?

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/stor ... oduct=7639

Hmm...it appears to be a 6s pack of lithium polymer destined for this here bike. Of course, being backordered, the two I ordered (and suitable Accucel-6 chargers/power bricks/lipo sack) could take a while to make their way here, not to mention a third battery/charger which will probably be ordered eventually. Not really a problem, though, since I have schoolwork to do. And I really need to clean up my garage; I don't even know where that 406 or those two sensorless conversion modules I planned to use are.

Oh yeah. Thanks to spending a couple hours going through that site learning how all the parts interact, I have approximately $150+$30 shipping in electric R/C plane parts lined up, too. *facepalm* Not that I really need another money/timesink hobby.

[Link]

So I mangled the axle today. By mangled I mean cut slots in them for some tube. FWIW, I doubt I'm going to be getting much water through a 0.17" ID hole. I would have LIKED to use the 1/4" ID tube, but I really don't think the axle could handle a pair of gouges that big in it. I'm going to be questioning its reliability as it is.

Reason I didn't drill it is because I haven't actually SEEN it in quite a while, and there's no way to actually get the bit to where I'd need the exit hole to be (behind where the bearing would sit). If I had a machine shop where I could press the axle out, that'd be different...



There's another gash on the other side. I'm going to be lucky to see 0.5gal/min through this thing.

Checked the bearings. I couldn't get them out without a mallet and screwdriver, I think.

Oh, and the batteries still aren't in stock. Friggin'...*drums fingers on table*

[nicobie]

I'm waiting for two of them too.

What are you planning to do about charging-BMS-LVC? I only bought one charger so I guess I'll have to separate them and charge one at a time. I also bought a couple of voltage monitors that are supposed to check eash cells voltage and sound an alarm if under or over the voltages you choose. The batteries are for a 22v boost pack on top of my 48v Ping.

Nick

[Link]

I bought a pair of Accucel-6's to go with them. I'll just have a jack stuck on the battery case (which will be vaccuformed 1/8" ABS covering the triangle) and charge them through that. The chargers balance the cells, so that takes care of that, and the controller should be able to handle LVC okay. Of course, since my ride should leave 20% charge left in them (which I hear is necessary if you want them to live a long time), I don't have much to worry about.

I was gonna get those monitors, too, but I had to redo my cart several times because I kept going, "Ooh, 2g micro motor...*add to card*...gonna need the 1g controller...*add to cart*...and I'll need...No, this is getting ridiculous *empties cart*". By the time I was actually ready to order them, I had totally forgotten about the monitors and filled the rest of the weight in my current shipping tier with a cheap infra-red themometer. Which I needed, anyway, so no big deal.

[Link]

Right...though I had to good fortune to discover some high-temp (500°F) repair putty (two part pseudo-epoxy stuff) to affix the metal disc to the stator, all I could find to make the disc out of was some unspecified (almost certainly steel) metal plated in zinc.

So, how's zinc fare in water?

I should actually be able to finish the hub and leave it to cure (a week I think is what the stuff calls for) tomorrow. And possibly finish putting together that vacuuform that's been sitting half-done in a corner for two months.

[docnjoj]

Hey Link!
Zinc is part of the galvanization process, so it should be OK in water.
otherDoc

[Link]

Sweet...I had figured it'd be more-or-less okay since one of the things it was specified for was gutter repairs.

I would have gotten the pipes attached to these today, but noise curfew around here is 10PM. Tomorrow, mebbe. Assuming I get a nap between...say...3 and 6AM.

Started by cutting a disc out of the metal.



Stuck it in the drill at a low speed to draw a perfect circle on it, which I cut along to make it more round.



Enlarged the hole in the middle to fit the axle through via Dremel and cutoff wheel.



Did it to another piece of metal.

Made marks on the discs where I needed the copper pipe to go and drilled them out. (They're not really round anymore, since I trimmed them to fit in the stator.)



You'll notice that for some reason, the drill bit I used likes to make Rouleaux triangles for holes. The pipe wouldn't fit through these, since they're less than 1/4" in diameter at points, so I ground them out real quick with an aluminum oxide cone.

This is as far as I've gotten at this point.



All that's left is to cut out a bunch of short lengths of copper pipe, bend them, solder them in place, putty the whole mess in place, and leave it alone.

Then I can finish the vacuuform while I wait for the batteries.

[Link]

The bonds between the tubes and the disc are questionable at best. Gotta see if I can find some hi-temp caulking or something to put on the other side.



Reason I didn't use the copper? I can't quite bend them without kinking them. The walls are a tad too thick. Oh well. I boiled some water and stuck some of the tubing in it to test it earlier, and all it did was get more rubbery and flexible. Should be okay...

[Drunkskunk]

rubber is an insulator.

Bending copper tube is tricky, but I know a few tricks.

the first is to have something like a V belt pully mounted to a table. (needs to be mounted, if it moves, it won't work.) then clamp one end of the tube down, and bend it around the V of the pully. the V will support the tube and keep it from kinking, as well as equilized pressure.

you can even make a bending block out of wood, but a V belt pully from an alternator used from any auto shop will be easy to get. Hardware stores do sell a bending tool, but its notall that cheap.

Another trick is to fill the tube with sand, pack it in hard, then seal up the ends., then bend it around something. its more work but it makes even better bends.

Another trick is to bend slow. start by bending it in an arc that would make a 2 foot loop, then an 20 inch loop, then 16, 12, 10, 8, 6, ect untill you get the size you need.


Used all together, this makes great bends, but any one of those tricks should be enough. I've been using them for years to do brake lines and fuel lines for cars

[docnjoj]

Hey Link! Plastic won't really do it as a conductor of heat. Listen to Drunkskunk. Also Harborfreight has cheep tubing benders. Ya gotta use metal for the radiating/conducting part. Supports can be PEX or poly tube. Great job on that so far!
otherDoc

Edit: Also make the connection between the tubing and the disks metal (solder?) if possible so you get greater thermal mass and a better conduction surface. Are you then going to run the tubing to an external cooler?

[Link]

Actually, most of the reason I REALLY didn't go with the copper was because I was too lazy to spend that much time bending them. Problem is, getting a watertight seal where the pipes go through looks like it's going to be a bigger pain than I had anticipated.

Oh, and if you look at the pattern the tubes run in, I there's no actual way for them to distribute the water evenly to the hub without me drilling a few extra holes. Not that can do that with all the tubes getting in the way. Derp derp derp.

So yeah, I'll go try to figure something out with the copper. If I can't get it down before I run out of the 10ft I bought, I'll just go with the vinyl. If I can, I'll go get some more and use that.

Are you then going to run the tubing to an external cooler?

Pair of 80mm PC water cooling radiators w/ appropriate fans. Likely will run the fans on 18V or even 24V instead of 12V (they'll probably outlive most of the bike even with the reduced lifespan/they're cheap anyway/I'm not too concerned about dB levels), and maybe the pump, too. Can't remember if 2,000cm² of surface area was the total for both radiators or just one. Either way, significantly more than what's on the hub.

[tostino]

Don't expect those fans to last, or even work at that voltage. I burned out a fan running it at 16v, it blew it's controller instantly on connection. I have a very nice 92mm fan for my comp that blows a little over 130cfm. It's called a tornado. Running one or two of those at 14v or so would be insane for airflow.

[Link]

Don't expect those fans to last, or even work at that voltage. I burned out a fan running it at 16v, it blew it's controller instantly on connection. I have a very nice 92mm fan for my comp that blows a little over 130cfm. It's called a tornado. Running one or two of those at 14v or so would be insane for airflow.

*shrug*

Eh. I got a pack of four, so I can afford to screw up one or two. The couple of fans I have lying around worked on 24V, so...yeah.

OTOH, an 80mm Tornado fan moves 84CFM, which is over triple what one of the fans I have move. $15, though...which is more than quadruple what one of my fans cost, too. LOL @ 55.2 dBA. Isn't that almost normal talking volume?

Hmm...I'll consider it if the fans I have don't work out.

Anyway, I gave up on the copper. The radius of the bends are just too tight for me to do without a jig, and, amusingly, I don't have any tools handy that would cut out an actual shape from a block of wood to make a jig. So, off to Home Depot to find some caulking, I guess...

To take my mind of my annoyance, I put this together.



Works pretty alright, it seems. Need some more nichrome to make an oven, though. The ones in my house wouldn't handle a 24"x24" sheet, I think, nor do I believe the owner of those ovens would be very pleased to find me attempting to cook plastic in them.

[Link]

Sweet...all that's left to do now is test for leaks and seal up any there.



GEE aren't I good in tight spaces with a caulking gun...

Oh, silicone...you adhere to metal pretty well, are waterproof, good for up to 400°F, and can me made into fake...yeah, is there anything you can't do?

[docnjoj]

Yeah Link! Conduct heat! Sorry but I couldn't resist!
otherDoc

[Link]

Yeah Link! Conduct heat!

O RLY?





Anyway...I do believe that the only thing I have left to do to the hub itself at this point is replace the crappy old phase wires with some new 12 (or was it 10?) AWG teflon ones I ordered way back when. Then I have to go through that godawful mess in my garage to find those two sensorless modules, because, at this point, I couldn't use the halls even if I wanted to. KNEW I should have taped at least one of them to the controller it was going in. >_<

Then vacuuform a new, temporary case for the S-Go's battery so I can stick it in a backpack and use it on this, because I'm still waiting on those batteries.

Oh, and a little more irony for you: You see the pattern the tubes are in now? They give the exact same flow pattern as the tight-radius bends. At the point I realized that, however, I was just like, ...No. Ignore the copper. It's not worth the frustration. If this starts leaking or something I can always redo it. Until then, a cat is fine, too.

[Link]

So, yeah, friggin' wonderful...turns out that, probably due to bad luck, the controller I was gonna use for this thing is fuxxored.

Added in one of the sensorless modules I got from Keywin way back, and now I don't get any voltage at the phases. Throttle connector works, throttle works, aren't any internal shorts that I can detect...bleh... I'd say I simply failed miserably at soldering, only I don't know if the controller actually worked BEFORE I did this.

After I spent all that time upgrading the wiring to heftier-gauge teflon, too.




Oh, and, due to recent developments regarding me building a new PC, I'm using the Thermaltake pump for it's intended purpose (holy crap ) and using this:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... m_vc=C5503

...on the bike. Main reason being I sincerely doubt I'll be getting much water through the hub on that pump's 5PSI or whatever it was, and the spindle the impeller rests on was already cracked once; I'd question its continued integrity were I to use it on a bike.

I'll be waiting on that, though. I also ordered a fair length of nichrome wire with which to build that plastic heating oven, and with all the money I've been spending lately I'd rather put the actual water cooling part of this off until, say, my friggin' batteries are restocked. Word to the wise: Do NOT order that size of Zippy from HobbyKing if they're not in stock and you want them within a reasonable timeframe.

Still need to find a suitable DC/DC for all this...

[Drunkskunk]

Do NOT order that size of Zippy from HobbyKing if they're not in stock and you want them within a reasonable timeframe....

been there, done that..Still haven't got the T shirt.
ordered 4 in febuary, got them in like 2 days. they worked great, so ordered 4 more, but they were out of stock. Finaly got them in may.

[swbluto]

Sweet...all that's left to do now is test for leaks and seal up any there.



GEE aren't I good in tight spaces with a caulking gun...

Oh, silicone...you adhere to metal pretty well, are waterproof, good for up to 400°F, and can me made into fake...yeah, is there anything you can't do?

Wait... isn't the tubing supposed to be copper? And wouldn't it be better if the "copper tube" were nearly as wide as the inside and held flat against the circumference to maximize contact area?(The cross section of the tube would be highly elliptical or roundly rectangular)

[Link]

Wait... isn't the tubing supposed to be copper? And wouldn't it be better if the "copper tube" were nearly as wide as the inside and held flat against the circumference to maximize contact area?(The cross section of the tube would be highly elliptical or roundly rectangular)

In an ideal world, yes.

In the one I live in where the only things I have to do this with are basic hand tools, this is as good as it gets.

Figuring that the 1GPH pump can move around 250W continuous for every degree Celcius that the radiators can convect to air, I think I should still be pretty okay with the steel transferring the heat to the water through the core. Hardly ideal, but still...far, FAR better than what an unmodified, sealed hub could do.

Said pump shipped today, BTW.

[Link]

inb4linktakesforevertodostuff

So the Shur-Flo arrived yesterday, and I set up a little experiment to see how well my money was spent this afternoon.



For the Shur-Flo, I figure I got my $50 worth. It's pretty solid and took just under 40 seconds to fill that measuring cup/bowl/thing to the 8 cup (1/2 gal) mark. So it doesn't really live up to the 1GPM spec (though I think a fair bit of resistance to flow on the intake side could be dragging it down slightly), I tested it at about 45GPM, and that's with a length of the really small tubing I have going into the axle on the 406 on the exit.. That translates to around 160W per degree dissipated by the radiators. Not too shabby, considering that I'm putting in a WAG that they'll be able to drop 10°C or more. If they can't, I'll probably look into a dual-120mm radiator and some 120CFM+ fans to put on it.

The Thermaltake, however, seems to be so overspecced it's not funny. According to the manufacturer's data, it can move 500lph. I'm assuming that's probably with the 3/8" OD fittings and about 1" of tube on either side, because it took 2:02 to get to the same 1/2gal mark. 15GPH translates to about 57lph. I'll measure it again when I actually get the cooling loop set up, but I'm not sure the long intake on the Thermaltake was having THAT much effect, since the water level in the bowl I was using to feed it was a few inches above the pump. Plus, while the Shur-Flo's was 3/8" ID while the Thermaltake's was 1/4" ID, the Shur-Flo's was about double the length.

I'll probably sell the Thermaltake for whatever I can get out of it ($25-30 maybe...) and replace it with a Swiftech at some point, because I'm not sure that's gonna be all that much better than even the relatively small, stock cooler that came with the CPU without a pretty large radiator, and I'm going to be relying on the (finned) reservoir to do the cooling.

Interestingly, the Shur-Flo is surprisingly quiet. About as quiet as the Thermaltake is before all the air gets out of it. I was expecting to possibly have to acoustically enclose it somehow, but it's likely less noisy than the motor's going to be at low speed. Has a sorta soft, engine'y sound to it, too, as it IS a diaphragm pump. Kind of a plus, I guess.

Still waiting on the batteries. Some new ones by Turnigy specced the same as the ones I ordered showed up, so I might cancel my order and get some of those instead.

Need to get some of those ceramic toroidial isolators I got from Orvac a long time ago. I can wire the nichrome around them for the oven.

[GringoInChina]

Link,

I'm jealous of your 'vacuum former'! Years ago when I was building custom PC's I was pining for one of those things to make duct-work for the CPU cooling.

One of the things you may want to put in your water cooling circuit (you prolly already thought about it anyway) is a little 'surge tank', mounted up high, above the motor height and above the pump. It prolly should be vented to atmospheric (and you could use that to fill the system too). With a little air space in it to help purge the air. Maybe have the radiator dump into that and then use another tube coming from the bottom to feed the pump (which you're probably planning on placing low somewhere).

Are your windings as dark as they look in the pictures (very warm motor)?

Mark