Electric bikes need pedals to avoid licensing in B.C.

[sk8norcal]

wow, 122 comments,
the scooterbike drama continues...





http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... uling.html

Electric bikes need pedals to avoid licensing in B.C.

A precedent-setting B.C. Supreme Court decision could have consequences for riders of fashionable electric bicycles.

The machines look like European scooters and many have detachable pedals, but a Chilliwack judge has ruled that riders need to keep the pedals on — if they want to remain street legal.

The issue wound up in the high court after a Chilliwack man was charged for driving without insurance after he removed the pedals on his electric bike, as many owners do.
Electric bicycles that have their pedals removed need to be insured and licensed in B.C., a judge has ruled.Electric bicycles that have their pedals removed need to be insured and licensed in B.C., a judge has ruled. (CBC)

The man said the pedals made his bike unsafe, but the court said that was not the point.

“Ultimately, the judge found that it ceases to be a motor-assisted cycle once the pedals come off,” said Crown Counsel Paul Blessin.

Blessin said the rules were written before the current crop of machines hit Lower Mainland streets.

“The original design of a motor-assisted cycle, it looked a whole lot a bicycle with an electric motor and battery on it, whereas the current, more common brand looks a lot more like a scooter and a lot less like a bicycle," said Blessin.

Under the terms of the Motor Vehicle Act, electric bikes are defined as Motor Assisted Cycles, or MACs.

But the judge found that without pedals, a rider has no physical means to propel a bike, making it a motor vehicle like a scooter, which the new bikes clearly resemble.

"If someone removes the pedals, however, which apparently is easy to do, a cycle that was once a MAC is no longer a MAC, as far as ICBC is concerned." the judge wrote.

"Further, because it then would no longer fall within any recognized class of cycle, it remains unregisterable and uninsurable, even if the operator wished to register and insure it. Without pedals, from the Corporation’s perspective, it should not be on a public roadway," the judge wrote

The judge also said the province should review regulations surrounding electric bikes.

[sk8norcal]

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews ... 61b495bfaa

Riders of electric bikes in Nanaimo and across B.C. can no longer ride on public roadways without pedals, the B.C. Supreme Court has ruled.

Electric bikes come with an electric motor as well as pedals and can look a lot like motorized scooters and mopeds.

But unlike the latter two, electric bikes are not considered motor vehicles and do not require riders to have a licence or insurance while on public roads.
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But in a ruling on July 12, Justice Neill Brown concluded that electric bikes that have their pedals removed do not fall under any category of insurable cycle, such as scooters or mopeds, and are not permitted on the roadways.

Nick Baumann is the owner of Tuff City Motorsports in downtown Nanaimo and is the only shop in town that deals in Gio electric bikes, which he orders when one is sold.

He said all electric bikes under 500 watts are legally required to have pedals when they enter Canada, but they are removable and many owners take them off.

"They're not really designed to operate with pedals so the pedals are too far apart for many riders to use them properly, and they are so low to the ground that many riders hit sidewalks and curbs," Baumann said. "However, having them on the bikes is the only way the manufacturers can get them in the country."

The issue found itself before the court after Vancouver resident Raymond Rei was charged with operating a motor vehicle without a driver's licence or insurance after he removed the pedals of his electric bike.

Rei was found guilty on all counts and appealed the decision.

"Once Mr. Rei removed the pedals, he removed any effective way for him to propel the scooter himself," Brown wrote in his dismissal of the appeal, noting that the electric motor is supposed to "supplement, not supplant, human propulsion."

Const. Gary O'Brien, a spokesman with the Nanaimo RCMP, said the bikes are monitored in the city, but they have never been a "huge issue" for the local police.

Richard Harding, head of the city's parks, recreation and culture commission, said the oneyear trial run to allow the vehicles on the city's trail systems in 2007 proved successful, and they have been allowed on the trails ever since, with or without pedals.

RBarron@nanaimodailynews.com 250-729-4234

[dogman]

Even here where I live with nearly no regulation of ebikes, you take the pedals off, it's not any kind of bicylce anymore. So no riding it as an ebike or moped if you remove pedals.

What's so hard to understand about that? Do people remove parts of thier cars that are required, like brake lights perhaps, and expect to still be legal? Of course not. But they expect to remove legaly required parts from the bike.

Wish there was an intelligence test to be allowed to buy an ebike sometimes. The more doofuses riding ebikes, the more we'll get really dumb nanny laws.

If those pedals make that bike unsafe to ride, the problem is NOT the pedals. It's the rider. I'd hate to see how he drove a car before he lost his licence.

Legislation should be done though, to allow 500w and less scooters. Stand up, sit down, whatever, up to 500w or even perhaps 1000w. Then have speed limits, not for the vehicle but for the trails as needed.

[ddk]

...
If those pedals make that bike unsafe to ride, the problem is NOT the pedals... .

if the pedals make the machine unsafe to ride, the machine should not be allowed to be sold as an ebike.

Other than that, the rest of points made by dogman I agree with completely

[Drunkskunk]

I'm glad to see the ruling went this way. Those scooter bikes only serve to give conventional ebikes a bad name.

While I don't like the idea that there is now a law that says an ebike must have pedels, I do like that the court went that direction instead of deciding that Ebikes aren't bicycles and banned them outright.

If it wasn't for those scooter bikes, this case would never have come up.

[MadRhino]

The scooter e-bike design has evolved to make them more and more motorcycle like every year. One that I saw this morning, had ridiculous foldable mini pedals that were there for the only obvious reason to make it e-bike legal. All the rest of it was motorcycle components, and it was BIG. Here they don't want them E-scooters on cycle path anymore even if they are legal, yet they still consider real E-bikes as bicycles and don't bother them. I am not bothered with 3 times the legal speed and 40 times the legal power, because my Ebike looks like a bike and I pedal at all times.

Apart of being fake E-bikes, the E-scooters have the reputation to be the favorite alternative vehicle of the DUI. That is one more reason for the police to bother them.

[sk8norcal]

If those pedals make that bike unsafe to ride, the problem is NOT the pedals. It's the rider.

have you ever ridden one ?

The smart riders remove the pedals.

there is definite safety problem with those,
its pretty obvious.
I am not sure how you fail to see this....

[dogman]

Nope I haven't. You guys missed my point entirely. In any vehicle I operate, ebike, tractor, dump truck, car, motorcylce, etc,,,,, I am completely aware of how wide my vehicle is. And operate it accordingly and safely. I bet with no feet on em, those pedals do spin around, and end up with the inside pedal pointing down. Still operators fault if that is allowed to happen.

You got pedals that stick out, operate it accordingly. But I won't hold my breath waiting for the DUI crowd to have that kind of sense.

Don't get me wrong, as I just said, a new law is needed to address the issue. Standup scooters are the best solution in many urban places because they fit good on buses and trains, but they are also "not an ebike". Till they fix the law you gotta leave the damn pedals on the bike, or you aint a bike.

[MattyCiii]

I don't think this should be a law - maybe a standard, or a convention: "If you can't pedal the thing a mile through your town's typical streets, it's not 'bike' enough to be an e-bike".

[MattyCiii]

Maybe also require the rider to carry it up a flight of stairs. If it's too heavy to carry, it's not a bike.

[sk8norcal]

Still operators fault if that is allowed to happen.

no way, its design flaw.

no sane person ride those scooters with feet on pedals.
It looks completely retarded when someone does

Till they fix the law you gotta leave the damn pedals on the bike, or you aint a bike.

Well ebike should have 500Watt motor in Canada....
but no one on this forum care about following that rule....

Standup scooters are the best solution in many urban places because they fit good on buses and trains, but they are also "not an ebike"

I agree there, standup scooters should be treated like ebikes...
and maybe segways too...

[sk8norcal]

note, the guys peddling like a duck in the video are scooterbike vendors...

[dogman]

Yeah that is pretty dorky looking, trying to actually pedal. Almost as bad as my motobecane gas moped was in the 70's. I rode that thing till it died, so I'm not completely moped ignorant.

Still an operator error if the pedals stick out, and hook anybody. PERIOD! It was a definite hazard on the motobecane too. What looks dangerous to me is pedal strike when cornering, since you don't have feet on the pedals. So you'd have to put a foot on a pedal on the high side to be sure the low side pedal is up. Like I did on the motobecane,,,,, for over a year.

Did I call it easy? NO.

You know I have a history of telling everybody not to buy one of those hunks a shit. But it makes me puke to see people go waa waa waa, I got a ticket because I wouldn't learn the basic skills needed to ride a moped safely. Learn to ride or get a bus pass.

[Punx0r]

The Judge's finding all seems quite logical to me...

The idea of a "test" to see if someone can pedal a bike a mile, or carry it up a flight of stairs is a decent idea, but either relies on the strength or the owner or requires some "standard" man to test it. IMO it's a bit vague to be accurately defined and pinned down in law.

[MattyCiii]

The idea of a "test" to see if someone can pedal a bike a mile, or carry it up a flight of stairs is a decent idea, but either relies on the strength or the owner or requires some "standard" man to test it. IMO it's a bit vague to be accurately defined and pinned down in law.

I disagree insofar as one should be able to lift their own bike, and pedal it a mile. So as I get older and weaken with age, I need a lighter and better balanced bike. When I'm too old for that, or become handicapped from decline, I move to a wheel chair/electric wheel chair, which would be in a different class of course.

I've worked in law enforcement. So many laws are written such that they are impossible to screen in the field. That creates confusion, frustration and bureaucracy, which pisses off the citizens and drags down both the economy and quality of life.

My concern is that claiming these electric scooters are e-bikes endangers the real e-bikes. I'd bet $100 those interviewed, awkwardly "pedaling like a duck" could maybe pedal their beasts a mike, but can't lift them off the ground. That's a better test than say, Q-width of the pedals, curb weight, 200w power limit, or all the other dumb laws we've seen.

[Rassy]

Matty said:

Maybe also require the rider to carry it up a flight of stairs. If it's too heavy to carry, it's not a bike.

and

If you can't pedal the thing a mile through your town's typical streets, it's not 'bike' enough to be an e-bike

When I first read this I thought you were just trying to be funny, but once again I disagree strongly with you Matty and hope you don't take an active part is establishing those types of laws.

I am 72 and use my 90 pound tadpole for exercise and enjoyment. I can easily lift either end, but not the whole trike. Likewise, I can pedal it for a mile on the flat and on moderate grades, but not up the 20 percent grade which is the only way back to my house. My 69 year old triking buddy, that doesn't want electric assist yet, can pedal his trike up to my house but usually hauls it up in his truck because one pedal trip up the hill on his 35# trike wipes him out. On the other hand he still often completes metric centuries.

[Sunder]

This issue is coming up a lot lately, and I think we're at a tipping point in many societies.

Law makers will need to decide whether these relatively new inventions are similar enough to push bikes to just lump them in that category, are similar enough to motorcycles to lump that in that category, or create a whole new set of laws for them.

The thing is, when people abuse loopholes in laws, new laws are made. A classic example is "Kronic". It's synthetic cannabis, which was legal since it didn't contain THC. But as people started taking it in large numbers, and the first death occurred, law makers banned it.

Scooter ebikes are really abusing loopholes in the law to allow scooters to be rego and insurance free, and allowed for use on shared paths. For this reason, I think it's good that judges are taking an adverse judgement against them, so that new laws don't need to be made even further restricting ebike use.

John in CR seems to think that I'm "selfish" for criticizing people who want to bring the law down on us. Drag racing Ducati racing bikes on public roads, for example, is not a good way to demonstrate to law makers that our vehicles are more like push bikes than motorcycles and should be rego and insurance free, and allowed to ride on shared and bike paths.

Make whatever bike you want. Do whatever you want on private land. But on the roads - and especially on bike and shared paths, act sensibly, or expect new laws to be made taking away our fun.

[KevXR]

Ebikes are for the most part following gas powered bikes and scooters. You can close your eyes and pretend a motor is not a motor because the energy source is different, but it won't work in the long term.

A bicycle without pedals is an electric powered vehicle. Sorry.

I talked to a gas moped dealer who said for legal reasons they won't sell the mopeds without the pedals. It is up to the customer to buy the conversion kit.

[iamsofunny]

The law in BC is that ebikes under the category "electric bicycle" require
1) pedals
2) motor no more capable than 500w
3) speed no more capable than 32km/h

Therefore the judge's ruling is no surprise. The judge would have to not know the law and be fooled by the defendant to rule the other way.

[amberwolf]

I'd also like to point out that many days I couldn't ride a regular bike a mile, at any speed.

Most days I couldn't carry a regular bike (even my pretty light Nishiki) 25 feet, much less up a flight of stairs (which I am pretty sure I could NEVER do nowadays). I'm just getting too much pain these days.

So it would certainly be unfair to use either of those criteria to classify something as a bike or not--it would mean that NO bike is a "bike" for some people, and they would require a license to ride ANYTHING. That's pretty silly.


FWIW, I'm only 44, but my bones and joints are painful all the time, and sometimes so bad I wish I could just lay in bed rather than move around and work--but I have to work because I'm not fat or lazy enough to qualify for disability in this state, and don't have any kids to qualify for any other kind of assistance.

I've done some really heavy work when there was no other choice, and pedalled even CrazyBike2 a couple of miles home, on good days. But it leaves me unable to do much of anything else afterward, and the pain is pretty incredible for days or even weeks.

I probably *could* ride a powerchair or a wheelchair to and from work and everywhere I go, but I'd be in far more danger of getting run over, or of heatstroke, or getting trapped somewhere with no ability to get the vehicle home, unlike with an ebike where I at least have the option to pedal it or walk it home...a powerchair is a LOT harder to push even with the clutches out (at least, the two I have here to try--they dont' feel like it at first, but after a few dozen feet they sure do, leaving me panting). A regular wheelchair could be pushed home, but pushing myself in one is far harder, as my hands and wrists are almost the worst-hurting joints, only exceeded by my knees, currently.

Matty said:

Maybe also require the rider to carry it up a flight of stairs. If it's too heavy to carry, it's not a bike.

and

If you can't pedal the thing a mile through your town's typical streets, it's not 'bike' enough to be an e-bike

When I first read this I thought you were just trying to be funny, but once again I disagree strongly with you Matty and hope you don't take an active part is establishing those types of laws.

I am 72 and use my 90 pound tadpole for exercise and enjoyment. I can easily lift either end, but not the whole trike. Likewise, I can pedal it for a mile on the flat and on moderate grades, but not up the 20 percent grade which is the only way back to my house. My 69 year old triking buddy, that doesn't want electric assist yet, can pedal his trike up to my house but usually hauls it up in his truck because one pedal trip up the hill on his 35# trike wipes him out. On the other hand he still often completes metric centuries.

[dogman]

I'm improving a lot with my health problem, and likely could pedal my ebike a mile or carry it up stairs. But last winter I barely had the strength to hand on to the bars.

Why would that make me ineligible to ride an ebike? I have to agree, that's no solution. They need to keep the pedals, or buy an ebike that hase usefull pedals, till the laws catch up.

Not our problem if people buy a cumbersome ebike because it looks cool. Stupid people dig their own holes and then fall in. I have no problem with the cops and the Judges enforcing whatever laws there are. I do have a problem with the legions of "ebike" retailers that lie to people about what the local laws are though! According to many of em, only the 20 mph 750w law applies in the USA. Then after the purchase, they find what they bought may be illegal localy, or illegal on the path, whatever.

[MattyCiii]

My comments were a little tongue in cheek, meant to spur some debate. But they are more than a little serious too. But your points, Rassy & Amberwolf - are poignant. My main fear is that legislators would paint with a broad brush when appeasing those afraid of the scooter style e-bikes. Then there I go with my own flawed test. Just recall my original words please... My "ride a mile" or "bike carry" ideas are more thoughts on field screening. Like a policeman who performs a field sobriety test. If I'm someone who has trouble walking a line when sober, I can always skip the field sobriety test and use a blood or breath test, because in the end there's an objective standard written into law.

I think Sunder said it best. These specific "e-bikes" are using a loophole to make basically a full-on scooter that happens to not need to be registered. I fear how our legislators might address the complaints - hopefully not an outright ban on e-bikes.

[Punx0r]

I agree. These scooters are trying very hard to ape their ICE siblings. Once performance is also equivalent, legislation is inevitable.

Back in the 1950's a company called Cyclemaster produced an ICE equivalent of the modern electric hubmotor conversion kit: http://freespace.virgin.net/stones.ukp/cyclemaster.htm

My dad has one in his garage which last ran a few years ago. 25 or 32cc, fractional horsepower, 20-25mph. It's heavier, slower and less powerful than my inexpensive electric kit, yet in most countries they require all the licensing/registration etc of a small motorcycle.

In view of that, it's hard to argue that the electric scooters in this thread, which are much less "bicycle", should be above any and all rules.

[sk8norcal]

Still an operator error if the pedals stick out, and hook anybody. PERIOD! It was a definite hazard on the motobecane too. .

yeah, like i said, design flaw...

There is a BIG difference with the pedal "Q factor" between the scooterbikes and mopeds.
Scooterbikes have a feet resting platform.
Seriously, I am not even sure why I am even explaining this, its like totally obvious to anyone who ridden a scooter...

I think limiting the "Q factor" is a good law to put in place...


there ARE some scooterbikes with narrow profile,
they are kind of in the grey area IMO...
example,



to me this one is ok,


this, i don't know..

[sk8norcal]

Till they fix the law you gotta leave the damn pedals on the bike, or you aint a bike.

That's like telling ES that we all shouldn't use more than 750W on ebikes.... cuz its against the law...