Electric bikes need pedals to avoid licensing in B.C.

[Rassy]

Matty said:

Maybe also require the rider to carry it up a flight of stairs. If it's too heavy to carry, it's not a bike.

and

If you can't pedal the thing a mile through your town's typical streets, it's not 'bike' enough to be an e-bike

When I first read this I thought you were just trying to be funny, but once again I disagree strongly with you Matty and hope you don't take an active part is establishing those types of laws.

I am 72 and use my 90 pound tadpole for exercise and enjoyment. I can easily lift either end, but not the whole trike. Likewise, I can pedal it for a mile on the flat and on moderate grades, but not up the 20 percent grade which is the only way back to my house. My 69 year old triking buddy, that doesn't want electric assist yet, can pedal his trike up to my house but usually hauls it up in his truck because one pedal trip up the hill on his 35# trike wipes him out. On the other hand he still often completes metric centuries.

[Sunder]

This issue is coming up a lot lately, and I think we're at a tipping point in many societies.

Law makers will need to decide whether these relatively new inventions are similar enough to push bikes to just lump them in that category, are similar enough to motorcycles to lump that in that category, or create a whole new set of laws for them.

The thing is, when people abuse loopholes in laws, new laws are made. A classic example is "Kronic". It's synthetic cannabis, which was legal since it didn't contain THC. But as people started taking it in large numbers, and the first death occurred, law makers banned it.

Scooter ebikes are really abusing loopholes in the law to allow scooters to be rego and insurance free, and allowed for use on shared paths. For this reason, I think it's good that judges are taking an adverse judgement against them, so that new laws don't need to be made even further restricting ebike use.

John in CR seems to think that I'm "selfish" for criticizing people who want to bring the law down on us. Drag racing Ducati racing bikes on public roads, for example, is not a good way to demonstrate to law makers that our vehicles are more like push bikes than motorcycles and should be rego and insurance free, and allowed to ride on shared and bike paths.

Make whatever bike you want. Do whatever you want on private land. But on the roads - and especially on bike and shared paths, act sensibly, or expect new laws to be made taking away our fun.

[KevXR]

Ebikes are for the most part following gas powered bikes and scooters. You can close your eyes and pretend a motor is not a motor because the energy source is different, but it won't work in the long term.

A bicycle without pedals is an electric powered vehicle. Sorry.

I talked to a gas moped dealer who said for legal reasons they won't sell the mopeds without the pedals. It is up to the customer to buy the conversion kit.

[iamsofunny]

The law in BC is that ebikes under the category "electric bicycle" require
1) pedals
2) motor no more capable than 500w
3) speed no more capable than 32km/h

Therefore the judge's ruling is no surprise. The judge would have to not know the law and be fooled by the defendant to rule the other way.

[amberwolf]

I'd also like to point out that many days I couldn't ride a regular bike a mile, at any speed.

Most days I couldn't carry a regular bike (even my pretty light Nishiki) 25 feet, much less up a flight of stairs (which I am pretty sure I could NEVER do nowadays). I'm just getting too much pain these days.

So it would certainly be unfair to use either of those criteria to classify something as a bike or not--it would mean that NO bike is a "bike" for some people, and they would require a license to ride ANYTHING. That's pretty silly.


FWIW, I'm only 44, but my bones and joints are painful all the time, and sometimes so bad I wish I could just lay in bed rather than move around and work--but I have to work because I'm not fat or lazy enough to qualify for disability in this state, and don't have any kids to qualify for any other kind of assistance.

I've done some really heavy work when there was no other choice, and pedalled even CrazyBike2 a couple of miles home, on good days. But it leaves me unable to do much of anything else afterward, and the pain is pretty incredible for days or even weeks.

I probably *could* ride a powerchair or a wheelchair to and from work and everywhere I go, but I'd be in far more danger of getting run over, or of heatstroke, or getting trapped somewhere with no ability to get the vehicle home, unlike with an ebike where I at least have the option to pedal it or walk it home...a powerchair is a LOT harder to push even with the clutches out (at least, the two I have here to try--they dont' feel like it at first, but after a few dozen feet they sure do, leaving me panting). A regular wheelchair could be pushed home, but pushing myself in one is far harder, as my hands and wrists are almost the worst-hurting joints, only exceeded by my knees, currently.

Matty said:

Maybe also require the rider to carry it up a flight of stairs. If it's too heavy to carry, it's not a bike.

and

If you can't pedal the thing a mile through your town's typical streets, it's not 'bike' enough to be an e-bike

When I first read this I thought you were just trying to be funny, but once again I disagree strongly with you Matty and hope you don't take an active part is establishing those types of laws.

I am 72 and use my 90 pound tadpole for exercise and enjoyment. I can easily lift either end, but not the whole trike. Likewise, I can pedal it for a mile on the flat and on moderate grades, but not up the 20 percent grade which is the only way back to my house. My 69 year old triking buddy, that doesn't want electric assist yet, can pedal his trike up to my house but usually hauls it up in his truck because one pedal trip up the hill on his 35# trike wipes him out. On the other hand he still often completes metric centuries.

[dogman]

I'm improving a lot with my health problem, and likely could pedal my ebike a mile or carry it up stairs. But last winter I barely had the strength to hand on to the bars.

Why would that make me ineligible to ride an ebike? I have to agree, that's no solution. They need to keep the pedals, or buy an ebike that hase usefull pedals, till the laws catch up.

Not our problem if people buy a cumbersome ebike because it looks cool. Stupid people dig their own holes and then fall in. I have no problem with the cops and the Judges enforcing whatever laws there are. I do have a problem with the legions of "ebike" retailers that lie to people about what the local laws are though! According to many of em, only the 20 mph 750w law applies in the USA. Then after the purchase, they find what they bought may be illegal localy, or illegal on the path, whatever.

[MattyCiii]

My comments were a little tongue in cheek, meant to spur some debate. But they are more than a little serious too. But your points, Rassy & Amberwolf - are poignant. My main fear is that legislators would paint with a broad brush when appeasing those afraid of the scooter style e-bikes. Then there I go with my own flawed test. Just recall my original words please... My "ride a mile" or "bike carry" ideas are more thoughts on field screening. Like a policeman who performs a field sobriety test. If I'm someone who has trouble walking a line when sober, I can always skip the field sobriety test and use a blood or breath test, because in the end there's an objective standard written into law.

I think Sunder said it best. These specific "e-bikes" are using a loophole to make basically a full-on scooter that happens to not need to be registered. I fear how our legislators might address the complaints - hopefully not an outright ban on e-bikes.

[Punx0r]

I agree. These scooters are trying very hard to ape their ICE siblings. Once performance is also equivalent, legislation is inevitable.

Back in the 1950's a company called Cyclemaster produced an ICE equivalent of the modern electric hubmotor conversion kit: http://freespace.virgin.net/stones.ukp/cyclemaster.htm

My dad has one in his garage which last ran a few years ago. 25 or 32cc, fractional horsepower, 20-25mph. It's heavier, slower and less powerful than my inexpensive electric kit, yet in most countries they require all the licensing/registration etc of a small motorcycle.

In view of that, it's hard to argue that the electric scooters in this thread, which are much less "bicycle", should be above any and all rules.

[sk8norcal]

Still an operator error if the pedals stick out, and hook anybody. PERIOD! It was a definite hazard on the motobecane too. .

yeah, like i said, design flaw...

There is a BIG difference with the pedal "Q factor" between the scooterbikes and mopeds.
Scooterbikes have a feet resting platform.
Seriously, I am not even sure why I am even explaining this, its like totally obvious to anyone who ridden a scooter...

I think limiting the "Q factor" is a good law to put in place...


there ARE some scooterbikes with narrow profile,
they are kind of in the grey area IMO...
example,



to me this one is ok,


this, i don't know..

[sk8norcal]

Till they fix the law you gotta leave the damn pedals on the bike, or you aint a bike.

That's like telling ES that we all shouldn't use more than 750W on ebikes.... cuz its against the law...

[Lessss]

A bicycle without pedals is an electric powered vehicle. Sorry.

except for this thing called legal precedent, see pic bottom left, bicycle without pedals - called a strider

[Sunder]

A bicycle without pedals is an electric powered vehicle. Sorry.

except for this thing called legal precedent, see pic bottom left, bicycle without pedals - called a strider

multipic.png

Sorry, that's not a bike under Australian law:

Bicycle means a vehicle with 1 or more wheels that is built to be
propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not
it has an auxiliary motor), and:

____(a) includes a pedicab, penny-farthing, scooter, tricycle and
unicycle; but

____(b) does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device,
wheeled toy, or any vehicle with an auxiliary motor capable of
generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the
motor is operating).

[Lessss]

There is a difference between dictioanry definition and legal definition.
Just as the supreme court what a tomotao is in the US.

[dogman]

I do agree it's a shitty design. No argument there. My motobecane had a foot platform, which I used when riding a long straight road. Actualy, I got popped by a cop once for riding with the feet up on the handlebars steering, but that's another story.

But because I was not always riding like a complete idiot, I learned to put one foot on one pedal in corners so I wouldn't pedal strike. It was an issue for me because I actually leaned the bike though a corner. Pedal strike was also a problem near curbs, so you'd put an opposite foot on the pedal to raise the curb side pedal above the curb, just like you do on regular bikes when you get the squeeze from a car.

Yes, yes, yes, the design sucks. But if you are going to ride it as a "bike" you simply have to learn to deal with the design. Or be smart enough not to buy such crappy design. Taking off the pedals and whining about how the design sucks won't ever make the damn thing a bike. But just because the pedals are not efficent for pedal locomotion has nothing to do with it being a bike or not a bike.

The other thing that sets me off is people saying they are too heavy. What? Would a buffed 250 pound weight lifter on a bike riding 20 mph be illegal too? Again, operator error if the dummy hits somebody. Or error on the guy hit, if he's at fault. Why is a longtail that's just as heavy ok, but not a bike with a cute fairing on it? Double standard bullshit. Set speed limits for the trail if it's getting to be a problem how fast bikes travel on it.

[sk8norcal]

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews ... d07f95c6ec

Expert not happy with ruling on electric bicycles
Robert Barron, Daily News
Published: Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Brian Dietrich feels it's "unfortunate" that an initiative he began almost a decade ago to allow electrically assisted bicycles on the province's roadways has strayed so far from its original intention.

Dietrich, a former town councillor in Qualicum, said he's not surprised that the B.C. Supreme Court ruled last week that riders of electric bikes in Nanaimo and across B.C. can no longer ride on public roadways without pedals.

He said the original intention of his successful campaign to lobby the government to change the Motor Vehicle Act to allow electrically assisted bikes on public roads without a licence and insurance was for pedal bikes that had been adapted to have a small motor attached.


Dietrich said that since then, many people have taken to riding fully electric bikes and scooters that have had pedals added to try to meet the requirements of the legislation and be on the roads.

Many critics agree the addition of the pedals make the bikes more dangerous to ride.

"I'm really disappointed with what has happened since the Motor Vehicle Act was changed to allow electrically assisted bikes on the road," said Dietrich. "Many of the bikes and riders that I'm seeing on the roads these days that claim to be electrically assisted should be required to have a licence and insurance."

Dietrich began his campaign when he worked for B.C. Hydro and was involved with the metrereaders environmental mountain bike program.

He said many of the meter readers had trouble climbing hills on their mountain bikes so he contacted an American company that manufactures small engines that can be activated on the pedal bikes to help riders ascend hills that can be turned off when not needed.

Dietrich said he lobbied hard to have the electrically assisted bikes on the road, but fears his work could be undone thanks to those abusing the legislation.

"Some of the machines I'm seeing these days are actually gaspowered but have been modified to also run electrically," he said.

RBarron@nanaimodailynews.com 250-729-4234

================





http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1207.html

Some concerns are being raised amid the growing popularity of electric scooters on Regina roads and bike paths.

The scooters have pedals, are classified as bicycles, and there's no requirement for a licence or insurance. However, they have a top speed of 32 kilometres per hour.

Barry Muir, a spokesman with the Saskatchewan Safety Council, thinks there should be more instruction required to use battery-assisted bikes, just as there is for motorcycles.

"It does not look like a bicycle. It doesn't act like a bicycle. It doesn't ride like a bicycle. Therefore, I think it should be treated like a motorcycle," he said.

Muir says there is no need to register electric scooters, but says drivers should have some education on the rules of the road.

Larry Brabant, who sells electric scooters, says users should treat the vehicles as bicycles.

"Do not flow in the traffic. Do not endanger yourself by trying to travel in the traffic," Brabant said. And, as any bike rider would know, they should wear a helmet and stay off the sidewalk, he added.

Rob Hertzog, who sells Harley-Davidson motorcycles but is a fan of electric scooters as well, believes the devices are in a different league than bicycles.

"They are a bike, they've got a motor," he said. "As soon as you put a motor or something on it the reason you're doing that is to go faster and truck yourself along quicker. And they do go faster than someone pedaling."

Hertzog agrees with the Safety Council that some kind of training for electric bikes should be mandatory, just as it is for motorcycles.

[sk8norcal]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Chilliw ... story.html

Chilliwack retiree vows to fight on in battle against electric scooter pedal tickets

Raymond Rei is cranked up about a B.C. Supreme Court ruling dismissing his appeal of a ticket for operating a light scooter without pedals.

The 63-year-old retiree was convicted in Provincial Court of violating the rules requiring that his electric scooter have the bicycle-style pedals.

He was found guilty of operating a vehicle without a driver’s licence and insurance. Initially fined nearly $1,000, the courts have cut his fine to $170.

The former furniture mover appealed the Provincial Court ruling but in a ruling posted online earlier this week, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Neill Brown upheld the lower court ruling.

“He’s mistaken in this decision and I’m going to see what’s involved in appealing that, if it’s possible to go to a higher court,” said Rei.

“It’s almost like being convicted of operating your bicycle without insurance, so I’ll be pursuing this.”

The Chilliwack man says that when he initially purchased his two scooters two or three years ago, an ICBC employee told him he didn’t need insurance or a licence — with or without pedals.

“She made a remarkable observation which I’ll always remember. She said the only difference between your scooter and one of these handicapped scooters is that you’ve got two less wheels.”

Rei has racked up 20,000 kilometres so far on the scooters, saving what he described as a “small fortune” in gas and insurance.

But he’s also been given 10 tickets for operating them without pedals. He considers the pedals a safety hazard.

“They hang so low to the ground, they’re totally useless. When you tilt the scooter going into a curb, they cut into the pavement and you crash your scooter.

“This has happened to me many times and it’s happened to other people too and this has all been documented.”

He says he will continue to contest the tickets.

“As they come up in court, I’ll keep on going to court and appealing it, because I’m not guilty of this.”

But recently he took the two 500-watt scooters to a welding shop and had the pedals shortened and then reattached, so that they don’t scrape the ground during sharp turns.

“They’re welded on, they’re totally useless, but they’re there.”

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Chilliw ... z228WG7elq

[sk8norcal]

(near Toronto area)

Man questions logic of e-bike regulations
http://metronews.ca/news/kitchener/3757 ... gulations/

Lin, who has a PhD in physics, removed the pedals because, at 64, he can’t use them to propel the 150-pound bike. He also worried the pedals would get clipped by passing vehicles.

“I did something that I think is for safety reasons,” Lin said. “The pedal is useless to me.

Instead, Lin received a summons for seven Highway Traffic Act violations after he altered the bike by removing its pedals.