Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 30, 2017 1:55 pm

craneplaneguy wrote:
Dec 30, 2017 1:19 pm
I am so tickled with it I don't mind the small tires on the trailer, their "push a button and they pop off" feature sounds scary, but works perfect. If I could get 16'' tires with that feature I would, anyone know if that's possible?
Depends on how they implemented it. If it's a typical QR axle on the wheel itself, where you push the button on the outboard end and it retracts the ball bearings on the inboard end to allow the axle to pass thru the frame hole, then probably any of the QR wheels of the right hub length and axle diameter would work with your existing QR axle.

There's a number of "kids' trailers" by Bell and other makers that have 16" QR wheels; I find these trailers for about $10-$50 at Goodwills around the valley now and then, and I'd bet you can get just the wheels and QR axles (if they're different lengths but same diameter as yours) online. I wouldn't guarantee they're great wheels, but these trailers are usually rated for about 80-100lbs load, and the wheels haven't fallen apart on me abusing them at twice that load (though I sometimes have to retension the spokes cuz the roads beat the wheels up like that, and the rims sometimes get bent especially when I would get a flat).


Alternately, you can make your own wheels, with spoked QR hubs from an old wheelchair (Quickie brand is nice, cuz most of them are modular so you can take almost any part off and put it somewhere else, including the QR axle mounts on the chair--they can be transferred to the trailer, if it's existing mounts don't work with the chair's axles). Just get a pair of rims of the diameter you want, figure the spoke length needed and get those spokes, and build the wheels you want. :)

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 30, 2017 2:03 pm

That would roll nicer with 16 inch wheels alright , burley trailer sells a aluminum 16 inch pop off wheel kits for their trailer for a steep $189 without the axle mounts.
Wheelchairs and some day scooters use pop off wheels. Alternatively you could use kids bikes wheels , I imagine they would feel much less bumpy towing.

Your set is far out , a ebike and plane !

Thats different !
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Dec 30, 2017 9:54 pm

Indeed, right after I read these responses it occurred to me to google "16" QR bike wheels", and got several hits. Near as I can tell Niagara Cycle (I've used them before for misc., great service and pricing) has what I need for $50.00 per wheel, with tire. I am unsure how universal the QA thing is, what different types there are etc., so will first take some pains before ordering to make sure they will fit.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 30, 2017 11:03 pm

craneplaneguy wrote:
Dec 30, 2017 1:01 pm
Some nice trailers here with larger wheels, and a good dog riding in trailer video also, but hard to watch without laughing. https://cycletote.com/trailers/dog-trailers/
Dogs in trailers are hilarious. My girlfriend's dog stands up at the helm and barks nonstop like a sled dog until she runs out of breath. She likes my bin trailer very much. It gives her a comfortable ride, too.
rps20171230_215845.jpg
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 31, 2017 1:40 am

When I was searching for a better rear 16 inch tire I saw on Amazon 16 inch pop off sunlight trailer wheels for $30 each

Image


Bob tread

The stock tread on the bob is quote a city tire , I would call it a general purpose pos as it has a underachieving max psi of 35 and tiny knobbies all over it that appear more at home on a sand path then hard pavement.

The cure

a Maxxis Hookworm street bmx tire thats well know for its durability on urban bmx and ebikes in general.


Image

The original urban assault tire, designed to take the abuses of the most aggressive street style riders. Bead-to-bead tread provides durability and traction whether you're dropping staircases, grinding rails or riding in your local skate park.

16x1.95
60 TPI
110 psi
515 grams

Picked up a diamondback thorn proof tube for it , the reviews suggests its thick and heavy which sounds better to me then thin and light
Last edited by eCue on Dec 31, 2017 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 31, 2017 2:02 am

eCue wrote:
Dec 31, 2017 1:40 am
The stock tread on the bob is quote a city tire , I would call it a general purpose pos as it has a underachieving max psi of 35
Keep in mind that on a BOB trailer, the maximum weight that the wheel will see is about 35 lbs-- roughly half of the weight of the BOB plus the weight of the cargo you can take before the trailer misbehaves. For carrying that little weight, 35psi constitutes overinflation, and will subject your cargo to even more of a beating than the small wheel diameter necessitates.

The Hookworm is a great tire, but if you're only loading it with 35 lbs or less, you should not inflate it to 35psi, let alone more than that.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 31, 2017 2:56 am

A problem I ran into with hookworms at least in the 20" size is that if they're not inflated enough to keep relatively stiff sidewalls, so that the sidewalls flex a lot as the wheel turns, the rubber and fabric can separate, and peel away starting at the bead area. At least, this is what I recall from the discussion at the time I had that problem.

I couldn't find the pics locally in a few minutes of searching, but they're probably in my posts around end of 2013 in the CrazyBike2 thread.


That said, I'll agree with the higher inflation pressures being a bad idea on the trailer wheels, especially the smaller diameter and unsuspended. Big fat tires at lower pressures will keep the cargo (and wheel) from being beat up so much; it's one reason why I'm using the moped Shinko 2.5" tires on my 20" wheels on SB Cruiser, since it has no rear suspension and needs something to cushion the dogs' ride back there (and any cargo).

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 31, 2017 8:25 am

Amberwolf , I am sorry you dont feel the same about high psi , its Uber important if your concerned with battery life ? Anyhow how low rr tires work is they need the high psi in them if you want to gain the low rr (rolling resistance) they have built in .

The tires roll SO much better with high psi amazingly so.

I have been riding with them for years and years, They are my go to and favorite choice in tire so when I seen the 16 inch hookworm I jumped at the chance to put them on the trailer what a SCORE !
Never thought they made the hook worms in 16 inch size.

Im freaking happy to have it on the trailer and feel it a great deal safer then the stock low cost model. They totally suit my riding style , Fast and my distance requirements.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 31, 2017 3:38 pm

eCue wrote:
Dec 31, 2017 8:25 am
Amberwolf , I am sorry you dont feel the same about high psi , its Uber important if your concerned with battery life ? Anyhow how low rr tires work is they need the high psi in them if you want to gain the low rr (rolling resistance) they have built in .

The tires roll SO much better with high psi amazingly so.
They also bounce like basket balls on bad roads when there's insufficient load, and have less grip on the road, because of the smaller contact patch.

It's not a matter of how I feel about high PSI. It's a matter of how things work under different loads. If you don't have much of a load on a highly-inflated tire, the contact patch area isn't compressed down and not as much of it touches the road.

The simplest way to deal with the problems these things cause is to only inflate them to higher pressures when you are carrying a higher load. Some tires have the recommendations molded into the sidewall. If you take a look at the manual for a car, trailer, truck, etc., you may find a chart in there for inflation pressures at different loads. You might also find these charts on automotive tire manufacturer or seller sites. They may call it a "Load and Inflation Table". Some bicycle tire manufacturers might also still do this, but I haven't looked recently to see.



A different way to get lower rolling resistance is to use larger diameter wheels, which will also have more air volume in them to absorb road problems vs the smaller ones of the same width.

You don't *have* to ride on rock-hard tires and beat up wheels (and you and cargo) to get good rolling resistance. ;)


OT:

If you have smooth roads to ride on, you don't have to worry about that, but unfortunately here in Phoenix the desert heat in summer softens the asphalt, and then the heavy traffic on the roads (especially buses and SUVs) that stops and starts frequently pushes the asphalt around, so it makes "waves" and troughs in the surface, sometimes inches high or deep. Sometimes these are gradual (occuring over several feet), more often they are sudden (over just inches or less). Once they reach some critical point that changes with how the last repair or resurfacing was done, the asphalt breaks off and leaves a sharp-edged hole there, the depth of which can be an inch or two to several inches (on rare occasions enough to bury a 20" wheel to it's axle).

This damage doesn't get repaired very often, because its' mostly at the edges of the road or lane, and cars mostly don't have to encounter them--and even when they do, they have suspension and tires and wheels designed to deal with this stuff without breaking, and msotly wihtout the occupants even feeling most of it.

It's enough to sometimes crash bicyclists (sometimes from broken wheels), who are forced to ride over those areas, or else get on teh sidewalk, which can be just as bad in some places, where blocks have been lifted up to do utility maintenance, and not set back down correctly so they have inch to several inch vertical level changes between the blocks. Or the dirt not put back in the hole afterward so the blocks settle down into a down/up ramp with a bottom that can be inches below the rest of the sidewalk (these aren't as big a deal for breaking things, but they can be quite a surprise).

Or the blocks aren't put back at all, so there's just a hole there. At least you can *see* those before you get to them, even in poor lighting, due to the large color difference, but you often can't really see the block level changes if they're still there, even in daytime, until you're practically on top of them--and you can't swerve around them, cuz there's nowhere to go but the street full of traffic and it's road edge problems.

These problems aren't a big deal on back streets--those just have crumbling and cracked asphalt and sidewalks for problems, wherever there are problems. But on any main or half mile street (where the bike lanes usually are, and where everybody has to ride at some point to get where they're going), these are common problems.




The good thing is we don't have an icy winter season (especially with salting the roads) to exacerbate these problems like a lot of northern cities do.


I have been riding with them for years and years, They are my go to and favorite choice in tire so when I seen the 16 inch hookworm I jumped at the chance to put them on the trailer what a SCORE !
I've used the hookworms (and ringworms) in 20", because they have good road grip (though the softer compound necessary for this makes them wear out much faster than tires with poorer grip), and are relatively "fat" so they have more air volume for better bump absorption, but they're insufficient for my purposes, with very heavy (hundreds of pounds) loads on poor to bad roads with potholes, bumps, and "waves" in the asphalt that can be several inches high, as noted above.
Never thought they made the hook worms in 16 inch size.
One thing to look at is which version they are. They make (or at least used to make) single ply and multi ply versions of the tire, and the multi ply will last longer especially under high loads (but it probably costs more). Unfortunately AFAICT the 20" hasn't been available in the multi ply in years so I've never been able to try it out--all the ones I've had were single-ply. I don't know if the 16" is or not. I think the 24" and/or 26" might still be.

They still last longer than other 20" tires I've used, but at the price they don't last long enough, which is another reason I went to the Shinko moped tires for SB Cruiser (in addition to air volume/bump absorption/ride quality for that size tire, flat resistance, grip, and something else I cant' remember ATM).


If you're interested in the pluses and minuses of various tire qualities, there's a number of threads a search of "tire*" in the title will find, that have discussions about that with good (and bad) information in them.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 31, 2017 4:06 pm

We obviously have completely different Priorities and goals
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 31, 2017 5:29 pm

Do you understand how rolling resistance works? It's a coefficient times the load placed on the wheel. If the coefficient goes up because of low inflation pressure, drag is still insignificant if the wheel has almost no weight on it.

But overinflating your tire will surely beat up your cargo [bananas, dogs, solar panel] compared to using an inflation pressure appropriate to the weight load.

When I have 400 pounds of cargo centered on my trailer axle, those tires need to be pumped up pretty hard. But when you have a trailer that gets squirrelly at 50-60 pounds load, and applies half of that load to the bike's wheel instead of the trailer's, then there's no real benefit to inflating the trailer tire to its rated pressure-- only drawbacks.

You're accepting way more rolling resistance when you use a small diameter wheel instead of a full sized one, by the way.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 31, 2017 6:42 pm

Amberwolf , my priorities distance and speed take precedence over load or rider comfort , with the mini gearless hub motor I will be using pulse and glide throttle work so the bike spends as much time in coast mode as possible.

As the gearless motor freewheels like a regular wheel I will be taking advantage of every coasting opportunity I can when doing long distances less so when just out grocery shopping.
Pulse and gliding savings add up fast over distances I use the pulse and glide method to achieve 65 mpg city 75 mpg hwy in my diesel beetle 55 mpg rated motor its also my goal to do it with the ebike.
Low rr tires will help me at the task

I have been riding high psi tires since 14 -15 years old with road racing bikes later on mountain bikes. I very much prefer the hard ride its solid fast like being on rails.

Factoid

it takes about 300 -350 watts to pedal a light weight bike with low rr tires to 40 kmh

The increased RR of under inflated or poorly designed tread can add from 100 to 200 or more watts from EACH tire or about 30 - 50% increase in consumption.

For good information on how rr effects bicycle watt consumption check some road bike racing sites for calculators and test results road racers have much good insight to learn from ,if it interests you I know its not everyone's cup of tea but low RR tire use is valid and high psi in them makes it possible.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 31, 2017 7:06 pm

You're comparing wheels that might have 150 lbs of load on the rear, and move at 20-30 mph, to a wheel that has up to 30 lbs of load and starts wagging around at a lower speed than that. The power loss won't be comparable.

The drag force of rolling resistance is Crr * weight carried. The power lost to rolling resistance is Crr * weight * speed. Since your trailer sharply limits both weight and speed, you really don't have to worry about the rise in Crr that happens when you inflate the tire to a low pressure to match a 30 lb load.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 02, 2018 10:06 am

They have a interesting system of brackets that fit inside the CF tube, " CARBON FIBER MODULAR TUBE SYSTEM, it would appear to be highly versatile? Not cheap I'm sure, but light as hell. http://dragonplate.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobC ... gIfDPD_BwE Also their TELESCOPING CF tubing is pretty cool. Neat products, makes me want start a project just to use some of their products. I'm thinking airplane AND bike both.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Jan 02, 2018 8:50 pm

It would make for a sharp looking project , do you fly ultralight design or enclosed cockpit ? Is that material aluminum wrapped in carbon fiber ?
My handlebars are done that way , wrapped , they feel solid.

The shattering effect of carbon fiber might adsorbs more energy then the bending effect in a crash so it might be safer ?

I have a set of 20 year old Monkey lite carbon bars and newer set both have a good secure feel.


I am still working on the design and material for the Solar panel trailer ,so far its looking like I will mount two panels in a inverted Vee leaning on each other in a lightweight frame. I wont need as much strength with this design as the panels will be leaning on it and weigh in under 4 lbs each.

Im thinking angle aluminum would be strong and easy to work with for the panels Rack. Im also thinking about close cell foam as a backing on the aluminum.

The first flat design had the panels edged sticking past the rails 2 inches :shock:
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 03, 2018 9:00 am

A "real" airplane, with an enclosed cockpit. But, I sometimes take the doors off, and it's a homebuilt kitplane.

I believe what you see in that link is 100% CF, not just wrapped around aluminum. Could be wrong, looks like it anyway.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Jan 03, 2018 11:11 am

Nice to fly in a cabin's protection , especially at night.

Quote from questions and answers section

Sandwich core laminates are significantly stiffer than solid sheets of equal weight. Alternatively, one can produce a much lighter part with core materials than if solid carbon fiber materials are used. There are pros and cons to each type of core material, as well as applications which demand the use of solid carbon fiber without the addition of cores. Dragonplate offers each of these options to cover the widest possible range of applications.

That statement is reminding me I should use aluminum square or round tube and spray with foam for its sandwiching effect.
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Yak first hand experience

Post by eCue » Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm

A actual Bob Yak user conveys his real life experiences towing a Yak at speed

In this article by a tandem bike tourer http://www.threewheeling.net/hase-pino-tour/ the owner tows a loaded bob trailer behind his and wifes tandem. In the article he reveals they have reached speeds of 90 and 100 kmh down mountain roads.
Speedo
Image

Quote ~ 60km/h is also a regular occurrence; 70km/h however needs a good hill and a bit of tucking down; 80km/h or above though is somewhat more rare and takes a definite tuck and a good run-out at the bottom of the hill (for the stoker’s nerves). I think we have been over 90km/h only twice. But the handling is just so confident and steady, it is just a joy

Image


It was nice to find this article and get facts from someone with a similar riding style as mine. They are quick on hills like me I pedal at the top of them and tuck all the way down and reach 60- 62 mph under the right conditions.

below is a Amazon review Hookworm

trailer with HookWorm tire high psi

I purchased this tire for my commercially made rigid-style bicycle trailer and after 100 miles or so, inflated to 110psi,pulling loads in excess of 40 pounds, there are absolutely No signs of wear/cuts/abrasions! Loaded trailer tracked/ pulled excellant and almost effortless even at speeds over 20mph. Teamed with the Avenir thorn resistant tube (also purchased on Amazon)this tire assembly seems Bomb-proof! Its thick casing and sidewall feels very stout to the touch. It may take years of abuse to access its durability and reliability for the long term but looks to be very high quality and trustworthy rite out of the box. Let the torture test continue with more off-road cyclo-camping!
~~~~~~~~~
I would think 50 psi would surface giving it only has 40 lbs of weight in it , nice to know it works well at full psi , it must feel hard as a rock to tow though.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Jan 03, 2018 10:40 pm

Don't think will be doing 50 or 60 with 200w in pv panels :wink:
If I stay with the Vee I would be adding a nose fairing that extends past the panels front edge for wind protection and a aero advantage.

Image

The angle of the photo throws the perspective off, the panels are 9.5 inches above the front rail and end at the rear of the wheel.

home hardware angle aluminum

1.5" x 1.5" 1/8th weighs 3.44 lbs @ $33 per 8 ft.
The 1 x 1 1/8" weighs 2.16 lbs @ $22 8 ft.

I am going to try a 1 x 1 angle alum design out first as I can have more bracing with less weight.

For the flat panels the angle aluminum will work well so im sticking with it not sure about the plan to cover it in a foam backing maybe sandwiched in places exposed in others for panel padding.

I might lay chloroplast over the frame for a backing. I dunno yet I like that it would act as a back support for moving them around as they are flexi

Tonight Im doing a materials lists of both a Vee and flat rack design and see how they stack up.

I do like how sleek a flat rack is compared the Vee so may find a flat design the works for me yet.
Issue is I would need bump guards with a flat rack.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by markz » Jan 03, 2018 11:53 pm

Chain Reaction Cycle has some half price pannier bags, 25L. I did buy the 35L ones on sale and my battery tore it apart, that battery tore apart many contraptions from plastic garbage/recycle bins to milk crates until the last one, wood. I found some heavy guage wire milk crates behind Walmart that would have worked awesome if I woulda snagged a cpl at the time.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Papa » Jan 04, 2018 12:57 am

eCue wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 7:40 pm
Well Its official , Im making a charge station on a trailer. So far the plan is to mount a 3'6 x 22" 100w panel just above the rails with a 2nd panel under it...
And the purpose is...?
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Jan 04, 2018 1:10 am

To carry them to a mid way point and charge ideally between 11 and 3 then hit the road. Any charging along the way is bonus Energy. Or once at my camp destination with empty batteries I will be able to charge them back up and head back.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Papa » Jan 04, 2018 1:21 am

eCue wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 1:10 am
To carry them to a mid way point and charge ideally between 11 and 3 then hit the road. Any charging along the way is bonus Energy.
Why the vague answer? What is the distance between grid charging plugs? And what happens when the weather doesn't cooperate "midway"?
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Jan 04, 2018 3:12 am

I recognize you
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Papa » Jan 04, 2018 9:32 am

eCue wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 3:12 am
I recognize you
So does my dog. Your point is...?
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