Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 19, 2017 10:08 pm

I will be spending the week reading up on peoples touring experiences with cross country "carts"
I was able to cancel that Evo e-tec "trailer" and Im free of its economy construction and have picked up decent one , a serious one this time !
`````````````
The Video reviews on this model by experienced tourer's / riders are favorable..
I had read complaints with the cheap models with tail wagging that some users thought may of been caused by loose joints in its construction.They use single wheel trailers with Motorcycles so its not the one wheel so much as poor workmanship and a flawed design.

A bonus with the trailer is it fits standard axles and hubs like my internally geared 4-speed hubs

This model is well know in the bicycle world

Bob yak beast of burden #1 , 70lb/32kg weight capacity; 2 water bottle attachments

Image

Features

Stronger, lighter trailer wheel fork and rear dropout design, plus frame-strengthening gussets

Fits on bikes with rear dropout spacing 110-140mm wide, with 20'', 26'', 27'' or 700C wheels

Quick-release mechanism inserts into the rear hub quick-release (does not fit bikes without a rear quick-release skewer--adapters are available)
DRY SAK is made of PVC-coated nylon for waterproofing, with a double-layer bottom for toughness and over 5,700 cubic inches of cargo space

Includes a four-way bungee cord for securing items, plus a fender, safety flag and reflectors

Alloy 16 x 1.75 inch wheel with stainless-steel spokes provides reliability and smooth rides with heavy loads

Water bottle bosses on each side of the frame allow you to carry water for on-the-go hydration

~ Features retro-cool black powder coating and 10th anniversary decals ~

This item is compatible with most full-suspension bicycles and most bicycles that have solid-axle hubs. Please refer the image having the compatibility details.

Review ~ This device has lived up to all the reviews I have read on the web and from REI. It was easy to put together, the instructions were great and complete.The trailer is almost imperceptible when riding.

Image

Chromoly steel tubing with engineered gussets

Quick release attaches to bikes up to and including 700c wheels
Plus indicates trailer comes with Dry Sak
This item is compatible with most full-suspension bicycles and most bicycles that have solid-axle hubs. Please refer the image having the compatibility details

Chromoly frame 3.92 KG / 8.7 lbs

Image
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Dec 19, 2017 10:16 pm

There's a reason chrome moly 4130 tubing is used in race cars and aircraft fuselages: it can't be beat for it's strength/weight ratio. Titanium beats it, but it's a bit pricey. That BOB trailer looks pretty sweet.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 19, 2017 11:04 pm

That tubing is nice / the nicest hey !
its going to be a pleasure to own and operate , a mini rig hehe
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 12:47 am

craneplaneguy wrote:
Dec 19, 2017 10:16 pm
There's a reason chrome moly 4130 tubing is used in race cars and aircraft fuselages: it can't be beat for it's strength/weight ratio.
It's the toughness and workability. 7075 aluminum is about the same strength as the Condition N chromoly tubing used for racecars and fabric-skinned planes, but it weighs one-third as much. Carpenter Aermet 100 maraging steel weighs about the same as chromoly, but it's three times as strong. Neither is feasible to fabricate with like chromoly, and the aluminum version isn't nearly as tough.

4130 is pretty good in a lot of its properties, easy to work, reasonably priced, and forgiving of imprecision and mistakes. That's better than an outstanding strength-to-weight ratio that comes without those other characteristics.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 1:29 am

For people more industrious then myself !

Bet its not made from Chromo and bet you Chalo only the best are !

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 2:49 am

That looks like an earlier Bikes At Work trailer from Iowa. It's made from aluminum. Since that time, they've switched to a custom extrusion, like the side of a ladder, rather than the fabricated triangle truss. In either case they're very capable and expensive trailers.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 20, 2017 4:27 am

I guess I never posted the more recent cargo solutions I've been using, icnluding a couple new trailers and a trike.

The SB Cruiser trike
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=67833
is the most useful, especially since I rebuilt it to have a cargo box to sit on instead of boxes mounted to either side under the seat (as CrazyBike2 had). It's changed a bit since the pic below, but not enough to negate the info in the pic
Image
So now it has around 3+ cubic feet of space in a lockable insulated box that's structurally part of the trike. (about a third of that is used for a toolbag and the 2kwh+ battery ATM, but that will eventually go under the trike in a thin "pan" to free up the cargo space). The pic below was before rearranging it so the battery is "flat" on the bottom of that side of teh seatbox
Image
with the toolbag and stuff on top of it, instead of in front of it (easier to get stuff in and out).


Then there's teh cargo bed, which can be used as a flatbed deck,
Image

or can hold a dog kennel like the Mk I flatbed trailer did here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 83#p675818
and the kennel can contain an entire mounded-over large grocery cart full of stuff, inside styrofoam coolers to both contain it and keep it at temperature (cold or hot) and dry regardless of the weather. Then there's the rack on top of that, which can hold a few more coolers full of stuff (or just items themselves) strapped down.
Image
The rack is removable, but it takes teh canopy with it, so I generally don't remove it, as it also holds the lighting bar up higher (it can be bolted down at the back edge of the deck when the rack isn't on there). I can also bolt a suitcase to the top of the rack, which adds more lockable weatherproof cargo space (with thin insulation against the heat)
Image




It can also pull the Mk IV flatbed trailer, which has hauled almost 500lbs of dog food on it,
Image
some largish furniture (heavy cabinet), pallets, metal shelving, etc., and of course it's designed use--hauling Yogi (150lbs):
Image
It's got 26" wheels; I'd use smooth tread tires if I had any for it, but hte knobbies were pretty new and free, so I use them
Image
Kirin (120lbs) is riding in the kennel on the trike itself.



The Mk IV trailer
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... it=trailer
Image
(like the Mk III which is narrower, a little less width than the trike, comparison pic here during construction of Mk IV )
Image
uses an automotive ball hitch, because I had it, and because I knew it wouldn't break under the loads I'll pull with it (I've had problems with "normal" bike hitches in the past because I'm generally overloading them from their design intent).
Image

Crazybike2 also has a ball hitch mount on it
Image
so both it and the trike can be used to pull the Mk III or IV trailers.


The main thing that's different about the Mk IV traielr isn't so much it's size, but that the deck is slung below the axles, so I can use large diameter wheels for better ride quality and easier pulling over bumps/holes/curbs/etc while loaded (much harder to do the smaller the wheels are), but still having a low deck for COG reasons. I've considered going back and altering the Mk III trailer to be like this too, but haven't had a need for a narrow version so just haven't done that. When hauling stuff on the roads Iv'e found that wider and bigger makes cars/etc go all the way around me in the other lanes, rather than trying to zip past me in mine, so it's safer this way, too. I try not to be in anyone's way, or in high-speed / high-traffic areas, but there aren't always alternate paths or back streets to use, so sometimes I have to be on main roads, and smaller is not better there. ;)

Also, smaller wheels get beat up faster than bigger ones, with these kinds of loads. At least, I've had more problems iwth smaller wheels than larger ones, so far, and I've put a lot heavier loads on teh larger wheels than I ever did on the smaller ones.

I started down the path of slung-deck in the Mk III here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... er#p954767
Image
but I didn't go anwyhere near far enough at the time. :)

I've built a number of trailers over the years, and some of htem never even saw actual use before being dismantled and/or rebuilt into a different design, simply because a neighborhood test run proved problematic in some major way. The main ones that have been useful were the "chariot" trailer in the DayGlo Avenger images earlier in this thread, and the four flatbed trailers, to varying degrees. Three of those were custom built, and Mk II
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... it=trailer
was just a rebuild of a Bell type kid's trailer, which while useful had the most problematic hitch.
Image
Image
The elastomer and spring just weren't up to the surges of accelration and braking, while also pulling 100+lbs of Tiny:
Image


Mk I
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=18671
was a decent hitch but too high up, and I didn't really ahve the right hardware to bolt it together with, so I always had little (and twice quite large) issues with it. Nowadays I can think of a lot better ways to build that hitch (made from bike stems and a fork and some steerer/headtube pieces and bearings, and some bolts/nuts/washers), but if I were to use somehting other than the automotive ball hitch, I'd use a pintle type instead. Is mechanically simple, and can be quite tough.


At present the Mk IV is teh only one I've used since building it, whenever that was, and with teh trike's cargo capability, I don't need it that often, except when taking the dogs places (since only one fits on teh trike so the other has to ride int eh trailer), and when hauling things that won't physically fit on the trike.



All my trailers have turn signals, tail and brake lights, and I've used the same connector type for the whole time I've been buildng trailers and lights; the old 5-pin DIN used on AT style keyboards and MIDI connectors:
Image
I started out using htem beause it's what I had, and because coily extensions for this connecotr were easy to find at any computer store (nowadays not so much ;) ), and they generally stay plugged in pretty well. I don't need high current as I use LED lighting whereever possible, like here where I replaced the incandescetns in these MC lights with 12v aquarium "spots", which make them at least as visible in daylight as the originals:
Image

The actual lighting bar on teh back of Mk III and Mk IV is removable, so it can be tied down to the load itself if it's longer than the trailer, or moved from one trailer to the other, etc., though originally I just ziptied the lights to the dog kennel
Image
but it didnt' take long to move them to teh bar they've been on since:
Image
cuz if you're lit up people are much more likely to see you and not squish you
Image

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 9:29 am

Image

Image

These two are my fav configurations not that it matters but I like them !
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 10:17 am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 2:49 am
That looks like an earlier Bikes At Work trailer from Iowa. It's made from aluminum. Since that time, they've switched to a custom extrusion, like the side of a ladder, rather than the fabricated triangle truss. In either case they're very capable and expensive trailers.
For who you ? its of no use to me whereas the B.O.B is
Last edited by eCue on Dec 20, 2017 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Dec 20, 2017 10:28 am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 12:47 am
craneplaneguy wrote:
Dec 19, 2017 10:16 pm
There's a reason chrome moly 4130 tubing is used in race cars and aircraft fuselages: it can't be beat for it's strength/weight ratio.
It's the toughness and workability. 7075 aluminum is about the same strength as the Condition N chromoly tubing used for racecars and fabric-skinned planes, but it weighs one-third as much. Carpenter Aermet 100 maraging steel weighs about the same as chromoly, but it's three times as strong. Neither is feasible to fabricate with like chromoly, and the aluminum version isn't nearly as tough.

4130 is pretty good in a lot of its properties, easy to work, reasonably priced, and forgiving of imprecision and mistakes. That's better than an outstanding strength-to-weight ratio that comes without those other characteristics.
Every few years a new kitplane comes along with an aluminum tube fuselage, some welded, some pop riveted with lots of gussets, but CM is still the king. One new plane, that never reached the market when the costs skyrocketed, had an all carbon fiber wing, but good old CM for the fuselage. Lot's of more exotic material out there, but not in much use. Repairability is one reason, easy to repair in the bush (assuming you have a ox/acy rig handy) I had a few cracks develop in my plane, due to the stock landing gear I was using at first while doing off airport stuff, working it too hard. Since I changed to a totally different type of landing gear that spreads the stress around the fuselage better, no more cracks. And, the cracks I MIG'd as a repair (I don't have the preferred TIG, MIG done properly is acceptable) have held up fine, that and a few added CM gussets. All of these attributes would apply to bike trailers of course.

I've played around mentally with a super light weight trailer for my Prius, using a CM chassis/undercarriage with torsion bar suspension, with bowed aluminum tube for the superstructure (to get it all swoopy and airfoily and low drag.....) and then using standard aircraft fabric procedures to cover it. Using the new Oratex fabric, UV coatings and finish paint is not even required. Building anything light AND strong can be a fun challenge, much more so then building heavy. Preaching to the choir here I know, but the lightness mantra in bikes really strikes a chord with me. It was no coincidence that the Wright brothers were also into bikes!

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 10:49 am

Lets educate Chalo instead of him using his opinion to educate everyone else.

Chromoly 4030 N sells for around 57 - 60 cents inch of round tube in this spec
0.035 in. Wall thickness
0.930 in. Inside Diameter
0.3607 lbs. per foot

its not used because its cheap or affordable its used because its dependable and light

I rest my case :mrgreen:
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 12:16 pm

I build lots of stuff out of chromoly tube. I know what it's like.
rps20171220_111323.jpg
rps20171220_111323.jpg (119.7 KiB) Viewed 282 times
My point is that there are lots of materials with better strength to weight ratio, but the best of them are a lot more expensive. Even the common cheap ones like 6061 aluminum are often more expensive once you include necessary processing like the heat treatment that it takes to make it stronger per weight than chromoly.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 12:27 pm

eCue wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 10:17 am
Chalo wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 2:49 am
That looks like an earlier Bikes At Work trailer from Iowa. It's made from aluminum. Since that time, they've switched to a custom extrusion, like the side of a ladder, rather than the fabricated triangle truss. In either case they're very capable and expensive trailers.
For who you ? its of no use to me whereas the B.O.B is
When I say capable, I mean rated up to 600 lbs load. I hope I don't have to explain what I mean by expensive.

https://www.bikesatwork.com/store/produ ... le-trailer
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 12:57 pm

craneplaneguy wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 10:28 am
I've played around mentally with a super light weight trailer for my Prius, using a CM chassis/undercarriage with torsion bar suspension, with bowed aluminum tube for the superstructure (to get it all swoopy and airfoily and low drag.....) and then using standard aircraft fabric procedures to cover it. Using the new Oratex fabric, UV coatings and finish paint is not even required. Building anything light AND strong can be a fun challenge, much more so then building heavy. Preaching to the choir here I know, but the lightness mantra in bikes really strikes a chord with me. It was no coincidence that the Wright brothers were also into bikes!
I like your trailer idea with your aviation / mechanical background it sounds doable.

I have been trying to come up with a lightweight durable material to make a aero shell over the yak.

II know nothing about plane skin materials or Oratex fabric but will in the next few hours after doing research.

Trying think of a material to cover the bob with for drag reduction. Its shape fits the aero template fairly well with a curved top it will be quite close.

I may cover/wrap it with something taunt but also thinking of using canned foam to make a curved shell complete with pop top cover , hinged to open from the rear.

Keeping it simple and light will probably win out nixing my foam form idea it really only needs a cover.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 1:19 pm

Chalo wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 12:16 pm

My point is that there are lots of materials with better strength to weight ratio, but the best of them are a lot more expensive. Even the common cheap ones like 6061 aluminum are often more expensive once you include necessary processing like the heat treatment that it takes to make it stronger per weight than chromoly.
No one needs false info in their memory banks so Im glad your aware Chromoly is superior to aluminum for framework.

We are good !
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 3:07 pm

That's not what I said, and the bicycle industry doesn't agree with you either.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 4:05 pm

You don't know it but you in fact did say that.
In the hypothetical world things are different then the real world. I assumed you knew that.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 20, 2017 5:05 pm

There's a lot of real world out there with different assumptions and conditions than what apply to cycle trailers. When I worked in a space program, I made things from materials that don't make sense for most applications, but are the materials that make the most sense in the applications I was making them for. Stuff like Inconel, carbon/aramid honeycomb panel, pure silver flame-sprayed onto nickel mesh, hardened 4340 CrNiMo steel, 7068 aluminum, etc. Expensive materials with no special advantages over cheap materials in most applications. Hard-to-work materials.

Regular aircraft generally don't need all that stuff. And bicycles don't need all the materials performance that regular aircraft do. By the same token, bicycle trailers don't warrant the highest performing materials that make sense for bicycles. That's why you won't see trailers made from titanium, or hand laid carbon fiber composites, or scandium aluminum.

But that doesn't make higher performing materials useless-- or hypothetical-- for bicycles and airplanes and spacecraft.

My biggest, strongest trailer isn't made from chromoly steel, but mild steel with a cedar plank deck. For what that trailer does, chromoly wouldn't offer benefits to justify its added cost. For my small trailer, I did use chromoly, because the weight reduction was worth it.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 20, 2017 8:11 pm

You already found the loophole but salvaged race bike frames would be sweet to use to make a light bob or like the Burley deck or Nomad something where not much material is required.

This flat deck Burley is made of Aluminum , had thought it was made of metal as the Nomad is but its not , its 6061-T6 Aluminum

For a homemade one salvaged race bikes would be sweet to use


6.8 kg / 15lbs price $240

Image


6061-T6 Aluminum Frame

Two wheel chassis and Burley hitch system provide superior tracking and stability
16″ spoked alloy wheels with push button release for quick removal
Compact fold flattens trailer for storage and transportation
Ready To Bike: includes hitch, tow arm
Flex Connector allows bike to lay flat while trailer remains upright

The Burley Flatbed comes equipped with a forged aluminum hitch that mounts directly to your bikes back skewer or nutted axle, allowing for easy attachment to and from you bike. One thing we noticed through testing was that when getting out of your seat on the uphills or around turns the hitch allows the trailer to move separately from your bike which makes for better handling
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by craneplaneguy » Dec 20, 2017 10:32 pm

FWIW: My RANS S-7S kitplane has tubular wing spars of 6061 T-6, while as mentioned earlier the fuselage is all chrome moly. A few different homebuilts/kitplanes have tubular spars, most have I-beam type main spars. Strength and weight issues aside, cost and ease of construction and possible ease of repair is one reason RANS went tubular. For what the wing carries in weight, it is damn light, lighter then a similar I beam type at an equeal gross weight, and they hold up long term , I have over 3500 hours now on two different but identical round spar wings. Possibly, once a certain gross weight is needed, the I beam spars pencil out better. The parts count is a lot less on a round spar wing for sure.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 21, 2017 1:06 am

eCue wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 8:11 pm
This flat deck Burley is made of Aluminum , had thought it was made of metal as the Nomad is but its not , its 6061-T6 Aluminum
That *is* metal.

Just not steel. ;)

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by motomech » Dec 21, 2017 4:53 am

I don't how you guys mount those axle mount trailers. W/ dual torque arms and a L-bracket from Ebike CA that protects the wire/exit area , my axle space is full up.
That's why I went w/ a seat post mount.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by dogman dan » Dec 21, 2017 8:12 am

Part of why I made the custom bikes. I added mounts for my bob tail to the frame.

I would think you could still do a bolt on solution, a plate that clamps to the stays, then the bolt the axle mount uses.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 21, 2017 10:34 am

motomech wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 4:53 am
I don't how you guys mount those axle mount trailers. W/ dual torque arms and a L-bracket from Ebike CA that protects the wire/exit area , my axle space is full up.
That's why I went w/ a seat post mount.
One of the reasons I originally chose the Burley Classic hitch for my trailers is because I had several bikes whose axles weren't long enough to hold any more stuff under the axle nut. It grips the frame in the corner of the chainstay and seatstay.

Image
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 21, 2017 1:41 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 1:06 am
eCue wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 8:11 pm
This flat deck Burley is made of Aluminum , had thought it was made of metal as the Nomad is but its not , its 6061-T6 Aluminum
That *is* metal.

Just not steel. ;)
I found a loop hole :mrgreen:
Metal is lacking the ingredients of aluminum aluminum is made from metal but is a alloy. tbh It was a spelling error and a error combined,

I had read its description as Metal and assumed it was steel , its not they are both metal / aluminum as far as I can tell.
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