Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 21, 2017 2:16 pm

Even an "alloy" is still metal; steel has carbon in amongst it's various metals (the alloy of which depends on which kind of steel it is) in it, and it's still metal. ;)

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 21, 2017 2:17 pm

motomech wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 4:53 am
I don't how you guys mount those axle mount trailers. W/ dual torque arms and a L-bracket from Ebike CA that protects the wire/exit area , my axle space is full up.
That's why I went w/ a seat post mount.
With rear wheel drive ebikes could drill and file in a rectangle hole in plate steel it would act like a washer but also provide a point to attach a 2nd bolt to use for the hitch mounting point.

With a bob hitch could use a plate on each side
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 21, 2017 2:23 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:16 pm
Even an "alloy" is still metal; steel has carbon in amongst it's various metals (the alloy of which depends on which kind of steel it is) in it, and it's still metal. ;)
So true , both the Burley trailers are Metal both are aluminum as well. I read Metal in the descriptions and took it as "steel" incorrectly when it was actually a aluminum material.

Im going to be very suspicious of the term Metal from now on !
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 21, 2017 2:51 pm

I purchased these so called bobnutz to fit a 26 tpi axle they have versions available to fit 4 different axles threads and now12mm rear through-axles via a 2nd company.

Thinking about making a bob ? you can buy the front mounting arm and rear wheel stay as replacement parts for somewhere around $50 each then you need a frame wheel and a set of suitable bobnutz

You can find them from $25 on and up I payed $25

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 21, 2017 10:41 pm

I like the idea of having one trailer with multiple configurations for whatever task is at hand


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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 22, 2017 12:56 am

This trailer is nice in skinny form when not much bulk is carried and can bolt on a tub or whatever for more bulk

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Papa » Dec 22, 2017 1:35 am

eCue wrote:Thinking about making a bob ? you can buy the front mounting arm and rear wheel stay as replacement
I have one of the bob trailer stays somewhere.... It's from an Ibex I believe. No trailer or extras, so make me an offer.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 22, 2017 7:40 am

Maybe someone else wants or needs the part , I may of just bought the hitch and wheel nutz if I knew of them but have bought the trailer.

A BMX fork world be a awesome rear fork for a one wheeler, its head tube etc could help as well.
In researching trailer wobble came across this Video explanation that shows a common problem with trailers loads.

[youtube] https://youtu.be/4jk9H5AB4lM[/youtube]
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by dogman dan » Dec 22, 2017 8:34 am

One reason I like my cheapo imitation bob trailer. Cant be loaded negative tongue weight.

My home made trailer, made from a ladder and using BMX forks and wheels, you have to load it carefully. I go for the weight right on the wheels, if I carry something heavy and small.

That ladder trailer had a very crude pintle hitch, that was part of the rear frame of the bike.

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Kickstands and trailers

Post by eCue » Dec 22, 2017 11:20 am

You would think the same loading method / practice would effect similar trailers the same way. It appears not or more likely people don't know wtf they are doing.
as video review tips vary some suggest pack it up front some suggest pack near the rear wheel , which makes sense to me as it takes weight off the bikes axle and makes for a lower tongue weight.

With full size trailer its a 10% tongue weight I wonder if this works the same for lighter sub 100lbs loads. Could easily weigh the hitch weight before heading off and adjust as necessary.

Car / trucks 10% tongue weight with 1000lbs is 100lbs minimum for a mtb trailer say 50lbs = 5lbs tongue

I will try 10% tongue weight first time out and adjust from there.

Kickstands and trailers

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Personally I like the dual kickstand best its $15 the rear stay mount stand is nice too. I like it 2nd best but it may work better in that location. The trailer mounted stand may well work better yet.

As the rear stay kickstand can be swapped from trailer to bike I think i will buy it and mount it to the bike first and see how that works.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 22, 2017 12:48 pm

This model goes for $8 and up is allen key length adjustable and made of Metal (no shit hey)

Aluminum to be exact :wink:

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I bought the white version the description said it fit all bikes good enough no fussing about.
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Re: Panniers, trailers,[...] Front rack mount?

Post by Buk___ » Dec 22, 2017 10:53 pm

I'd like to add some up-front carrying capacity to my mtb. I've looked at ready made carriers that attach to the suspension fork stanchions and wheel axle, but hate that the weight would be unsuspended. I also remember riding a grocer's bike with a large handlebar basket, and hating the way the weight shifted with the steering.

Has anyone ever considered or seen a bracket mounted to the headstock under the top and bottom cups?

Something like this:
HeadstockBracket.jpg
HeadstockBracket.jpg (55.37 KiB) Viewed 309 times
I'm thinking 1mm (~20swg) galvanised mild steel. The interference flanges on the bearing cups are 8mm, so I'd be stealing 12.5% of the area which I don't believe will be a problem?

I can imagine all sort of extra tabs to prevent it from twisting laterally, and fillets to strengthen it, but its the idea of putting 1mm of extra material between the cups and headtube that concern me most.

To me it seems like an obvious idea, but I've never seen it done, and that usually indicates I'm overlooking something equally obvious.

Thoughts?

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by amberwolf » Dec 23, 2017 2:55 am

I don't know if it would cause a problem (guess it would depend on the load and the characteristics of the tube and brackets), but I imagine over time the forces deforming (or trying to) the headtube, as it pulls on the top and pushes on the bottom.

Additionally, normally the toptube is in compression and teh downtube in tension. When the headtube is loaded, then (especially on bumps, suspension or not), it'll reverse that to some degree (perhaps completely if the load is high enough), and repeatedly stress the area in ways it wouldn't normally see. I have no idea if that would cause any problems; you'd have to try it to find out.


There are a number of bikes (some DIY, some commercial) with a cargo platform (of varying size and load capacity) that is a part of the frame itself, extending out beyond the headtube over the front wheel.

Chalo has a thread about one such bike he built, if you look thru his posts.


What I would recommend for DIY non-weld version is parallel tubes clamped to the toptube (parallel all the way to the seattube) to cantilever the load all the way back to the seattube/post. Iv'e considered this method for an experiment on CrazyBike2 to add a platform on it's front end; haven't done it because now I have the SB Cruiser trike that carries a lot more than the bike already--but I have considered adding it to the trike as well.

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Re: Panniers, trailers,[...] Front rack mount?

Post by Chalo » Dec 23, 2017 3:37 am

Buk___ wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 10:53 pm
Has anyone ever considered or seen a bracket mounted to the headstock under the top and bottom cups?
That might work fine, with the right implementation. I think the faceplate that joins the top and bottom mounts would have to be thicker, or maybe just bent into a channel shape to give it some integrity. I would only trust steel headset cups to accept the resulting shear loading. One of the handful of deep cup DH headsets that have been made over the years would be an appropriate pairing.

Image

If the top mount were fastened to the face plate with screws rather than integral with it, then the bracket wouldn't have to be specific to one single head tube length. But a single piece bracket would be tidier looking and stronger, all else equal.

I've considered making a front platform that clamps to the head tube with a pillow block clamp. This way you propose could offer better strength, lighter and simpler construction, and less chance of damage to the host frame.

Keeping the thing from rotating around the head tube even the slightest amount would be key to the success of the design.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Buk___ » Dec 23, 2017 3:57 am

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 2:55 am
I don't know if it would cause a problem (guess it would depend on the load and the characteristics of the tube and brackets), but I imagine over time the forces deforming (or trying to) the headtube, as it pulls on the top and pushes on the bottom.

Additionally, normally the toptube is in compression and teh downtube in tension. When the headtube is loaded, then (especially on bumps, suspension or not), it'll reverse that to some degree (perhaps completely if the load is high enough), and repeatedly stress the area in ways it wouldn't normally see. I have no idea if that would cause any problems; you'd have to try it to find out.
The load from the bracket would be acting directly on the hardened steel of the top and bottom race cups, so I think any wear would be confined to the much softer mild steel of the bracket.

From the race cups, the load is transferred to the head tube via the press fit surfaces which are designed to take and spread the shock loads, including the torsion moment, from the front wheel.

In my head, when a upward shock to the front wheel is trying to stretch the back of the top and the front of the bottom of the head tube, the moment of inertia of the load on the bracket will be acting in the opposite direction. And vice versa when the front wheel is dropping away. In my head, that means the net force acting on the rims of the head tube would be lessened.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 2:55 am
There are a number of bikes (some DIY, some commercial) with a cargo platform (of varying size and load capacity) that is a part of the frame itself, extending out beyond the headtube over the front wheel.

Chalo has a thread about one such bike he built, if you look thru his posts.
I'm not looking to carry a huge amount of weight -- maybe 10kg at most -- but my battery and controller are mounted to the back of the seat post so I'd rather not put more load back there.

And I am paranoid about hanging bags on the handlebars. I have very vivid memories of the pain from gravel rash when one caught in the wheel as a teenager.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 2:55 am
What I would recommend for DIY non-weld version is parallel tubes clamped to the toptube (parallel all the way to the seattube) to cantilever the load all the way back to the seattube/post. Iv'e considered this method for an experiment on CrazyBike2 to add a platform on it's front end; haven't done it because now I have the SB Cruiser trike that carries a lot more than the bike already--but I have considered adding it to the trike as well.
If at all possible I will try and avoid widening the crossbar. I tend to be somewhat knock-kneed and am already capable of banging my knees on it :)
Last edited by Buk___ on Dec 23, 2017 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Panniers, trailers,[...] Front rack mount?

Post by Buk___ » Dec 23, 2017 4:50 am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 3:37 am
That might work fine, with the right implementation. I think the faceplate that joins the top and bottom mounts would have to be thicker, or maybe just bent into a channel shape to give it some integrity. I would only trust steel headset cups to accept the resulting shear loading. One of the handful of deep cup DH headsets that have been made over the years would be an appropriate pairing.

Image
Now that's a great idea. I'll have a look see whether I can find one.
Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 3:37 am
If the top mount were fastened to the face plate with screws rather than integral with it, then the bracket wouldn't have to be specific to one single head tube length. But a single piece bracket would be tidier looking and stronger, all else equal.
It's only intended to fit my current bike which I doubt I'll be changing any time soon.
Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 3:37 am
Keeping the thing from rotating around the head tube even the slightest amount would be key to the success of the design.
Agreed. I'm thinking of a couple of extensions coming from the back, behind the bottom cup and twisting to meet the flat sides of my (ovalish) downtube and attach with either screws or pop rivets. The frame is steel, so drilling a couple of small holes won't hurt.

Thanks.

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 23, 2017 5:12 am

FSA and Chris King both made headsets like that, plus others I'm less familiar with. If no luck, the more common versions of FSA The Pig headsets have 12mm press fits. That should do it.

For affixing the side tabs to your frame, allow plenty of room between the attachment points and the highly stressed down tube to head tube joint. I've had a frame crack at the riveted-on shifter cable guides more than 2" back from the weld.

I would install 5mm rivnuts for that job, rather than screws or pop rivets. They're common in the bike world, usually used for water bottle bosses.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Buk___ » Dec 23, 2017 6:03 am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 5:12 am
FSA and Chris King both made headsets like that, plus others I'm less familiar with. If no luck, the more common versions of FSA The Pig headsets have 12mm press fits. That should do it.
Thanks for the info. I found a FSA PIG in stainless steel (both parts, some/most seem to have alloy upper cups) at a very reasonable price.
Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 5:12 am
For affixing the side tabs to your frame, allow plenty of room between the attachment points and the highly stressed down tube to head tube joint. I've had a frame crack at the riveted-on shifter cable guides more than 2" back from the weld.
Agreed.
Chalo wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 5:12 am
I would install 5mm rivnuts for that job, rather than screws or pop rivets. They're common in the bike world, usually used for water bottle bosses.
I thought about that, but they require drilling a much bigger hole in the frame; and don't you need a special tool to set them?

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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 23, 2017 6:08 am

It's easier to set a rivnut if you have a setter, but it's not too hard to accomplish the same thing with a longish 5mm screw plus a nut and washer. You hold the screw still while turning the nut down against the washer to pull the rivnut.
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Trailer tongue weight

Post by eCue » Dec 23, 2017 1:30 pm

The Yak arrived yesterday well packaged from Amazon , its set up was simple as the frame is welded there was just the quick release wheel to mount , the center hitch pin to stay bolt was installed and last the fender.

What I noticed

The welds are tight nearly invisible (in most areas) and the wheel spins near endlessly with a racing bike buttery feel to it. I was shocked it kept going and going and going and going. It has a aluminum hub.
The paint is high gloss and has the wet look to it the stickers are understated and low key but the flag has a large bob logo on one side that will likely get painted over.

Weight distribution

The trailer weighs 13lbs empty with a tongue weight of 5.5 lbs or 35% to 65% front to rear weight ratio before loading commences. I have doubts a 10% tongue weight is possible with these models with the rear wheel so far back. I will test load this week and see what kind of ratio I can tweak out of it.

The dry bag is well fitted to the base the material feels like its the same as a vinyl inflatable boat. Oddly it does not seal shut instead it folds over.

Image

Protect your cycling load with this large, 93L capacity, waterproof dry bag. It fits the dimensions of the BOB trailer perfectly. Has handles on top for easy in and out, and a roll-top that tightly seals to keep out precipitation.

Made of waterproof PVC-coated nylon.
Double bottom for added durability.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Chalo » Dec 23, 2017 3:43 pm

BOB trailers are very nicely made and durable, and priced accordingly.

To get 10% tongue weight, the wheel(s) must be near the center of the trailer's load bed. The only one-wheel trailer I'm aware of that accomplishes optimum tongue loading is Extrawheel, but it is only designed to carry panniers.

Image

BOB and its lookalikes will all apply a much greater fraction of their load to the pivot and the rear wheel of the tow bike. But that's not a big deal, because you can't carry very much weight with those trailers before they misbehave anyway.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by Stu Summer » Dec 23, 2017 7:53 pm

Ecue,

What is that trailer with the really long tongue and where can I get one? It look like a canoe trailer.
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 23, 2017 8:55 pm

Stu Summer wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 7:53 pm
Ecue,

What is that trailer with the really long tongue and where can I get one? It look like a canoe trailer.
You might be able to find dealer / retailer who sells similar models that one posted looks DIY to me made up from aluminum tube bicycle wheels and hitch parts. I do like the idea of having a small trailer with a split hitch pole so a length can be added its like two trailers in one.
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Bob Yak hitch weight

Post by eCue » Dec 23, 2017 10:11 pm

The Yak hitch ratio test

Method

A weighing platform was set to replicate the axle height
The weight was added one weight at a time the resulting weight was recorded
Bubble wrap was used to prevented the weight from shifting.

Empty 13 lbs , tongue 5 lbs

0 to 50 lbs test with bathroom digital scale on platform

10 lbs rear = 7.8 lbs
20 lbs rear = 11 lbs
30 lbs = 13.8 lbs
40 lbs 16.4 lbs
50 lbs 19 lbs


50 lbs spread weight test

Three 10 lbs weights at very back two weights ahead = 24 lbs 50% tongue

Three 10 lbs weight forward two back = 26 lbs = 50% tongue

Last is full load 60 lbs test three 10 lbs weights back three weights ahead = 29.5 lbs = 50% tongue
Image

Summery

The trailer has a 50/50 weight distribution ratio.
Noticed that the trailer gets unwieldy with sideways motion at 50 lbs but feels substantially better at 40 lbs.

Findings

The 50 and 60 lbs weight amplified the tipping factor
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Re: Panniers, trailers, and other cargo solutions

Post by eCue » Dec 24, 2017 2:13 pm

You may well of surmised this but In conclusion , the added height of the 50 and 60 pound weight was a factor in the trailers unsteadiness.

From here its trial runs and some higher speed down hill runs.
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