Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

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wturber
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by wturber » Dec 08, 2017 1:51 pm

majornelson wrote:
Dec 08, 2017 11:30 am
Great info. Can you post a link to the carbon bars from Amazon?
I'm betting it is one of these. I have this or something nearly identical and find it very handy.

https://www.amazon.com/MaxMiles-Accesso ... essory+bar
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

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motomech
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by motomech » Dec 08, 2017 2:49 pm

rolandhorth wrote:
Dec 07, 2017 8:02 pm
I just wanted to add to this thread and thank everyone on it for all the great info. Based on advise found here (and directly in contradiction to other advice found on ES) I went ahead and converted my 22# (20 speed) aluminum cyclocross bike with a BMS Q100cst 328rpm 36V kit.

My goal was a PAS setup that helped rather than replaced my pedaling. The BMS kit I purchased consisted of:

Q100cst 328rpm 32 hole motor custom built up in the US with a decent DT Swiss disc rim
36V s06 sinewave controller integrated into new bottle case
36V 11.6 Ah panasonic bottle battery
12 position left side hall effect PAS sensor
Q100cst 328 32 hole motor custom built up in the US with a decent DT Swiss disc rim
two chargers (one for the office/one for home)
no brake switch (drop bars and hydraulic brakes)...I have found I don't see a need for the brake kill switch

throttle and controller are placed on an out front carbon bar from Amazon, though I have only used the throttle for testing and setup. I had done a lot of searching for throttle options since the throttles are too small to fit on drop bars and happy with the solution I came up with.

My daily ride consists of a 14 mile commute each way with 10 miles of rail-to-trail bike path. Decent climb/decent at one end depending on direction.

My times pre-electric had me averaging 20 on the flats on my road bike, more like 18 on the cross bike.

Now with the ebike setup I can average 24 at pas level 5, 22 at pas level 4, 20 at pas level 3. Dead silent motor.

I have been turning the PAS down to 1 for the climb, and tend to do the whole climb standing (trying to put a lot more human power rather then ebike into the climb).

I can make it both ways on a single charge at 4-5 PAS.

Glad I went with the 328rpm as the 201 would have been too slow and the 260 would have meant sacrificing the 10 speed rear cassette.

thanks again!
Glad your build is working our for you. Generally, we don't recommend forgoing the Ebrake function, but w/ your system, I can see where it's probably not necessary. With the high-speed motor combined w/ a low power controller, I know from experience, that the rider can stop the motor w/ the brake if the need arises. I'm assuming your Sine wave PAS doesn't "run-on" like the Square wave systems do. My PAS actually keeps going for a couple of seconds after I stop pedaling, so the Ebrake is a must.
I guess the other thing I might mention is, remember to never let the climbing speed fall below half of the top speed, which, in your case, would be around 10 to 12 mph. If you hit a hill where you can feel the motor start to "lug-down", it's time to jump off and walk up.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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motomech
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by motomech » Dec 08, 2017 3:12 pm

Here's an update on my Q100 C build that is at the other end of the spectrum than the high-speed motor build above.
My "201" low-speed motor, backed w/12S LiPoly(45 Volts) and an ELB 17 Amp controller was working well and really forcing me to pedal, but as usual, I got bored w/ it and wanted to go faster.
One of the nice things about LiPoly is the modular nature of combining various "bricks" to get the desired pack Voltage and capacity. I was using 4S + 4S + 4S to get 12S. But since I had some laying around, I exchanged one of the 4S bricks for a 6S, giving me 4S + 4S + 6S = 14S. Breaking my own rule of making only one change at a time, I went ahead and shunt mod'ed the controller at the same time, taking the Amps up from 17 to 22 A. The battery pack, although tight, still fitted into my tiny frame bag;
100_0107.JPG
100_0107.JPG (89.08 KiB) Viewed 629 times
Wow! Whole different bike. Top speed went from 17-18 mph to 20-21 mph w/ much better acelleration.
I guess this reinforces something I hadn't thought about recently. Adding Volts to a low-speed motor is a great way to get some more top-speed and a low-speed motor will take more total Wattage safely than a high-speed motor system can.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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wturber
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by wturber » Dec 08, 2017 4:09 pm

motomech wrote:
Dec 08, 2017 2:49 pm

I guess the other thing I might mention is, remember to never let the climbing speed fall below half of the top speed, which, in your case, would be around 10 to 12 mph. If you hit a hill where you can feel the motor start to "lug-down", it's time to jump off and walk up.
I assume that's so the motor won't be fed too much current and overheat? If so, he's probably taking care of that by using PAS level 1 on his hill climbs. The controller will put out very little current at that PAS level.

I really like the idea of putting one of these Cute Q100 motors on a lightweight bicycle. I may do this with my good ol' Trek 1400.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

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motomech
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by motomech » Dec 09, 2017 12:14 am

I assume that's so the motor won't be fed too much current and overheat? If so, he's probably taking care of that by using PAS level 1 on his hill climbs. The controller will put out very little current at that PAS level.
Hummm, maybe not.
I haver climbed a steep hill w/ a sine wave controller in low-level PAS, but I have tackled many hill w/ a single Cute. Some hills so steep, I could barely walk up and the technique involves hitting the bottom as fast and hard as possible, to carry up as far as I can before the bike starts to slow down and maybe one has made it close enough to crest. Sounds counter-intuitive, going as fast and hard as possible, but the rider needs to ready to quickly back out of the throttle in keeping w/ the decreased speed. One hill in particular, I never could make it up. About 2/3 rd.s of the way, I could see I was going to stall out and would have to hang a u-bee and go back down.
In keeping w/ this idea, it seems to me that starting at the bottom in PAS 1 (if that is what he is doing), might not be the best technique for a truely steep hill. Starting slow on low power isn't going to get one that far. It seems to me, hitting the bottom in pas 5 and pedaling like heck and toggling down as the speed falls might be the way to try .
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by wturber » Dec 10, 2017 3:09 am

motomech wrote:
Dec 09, 2017 12:14 am

In keeping w/ this idea, it seems to me that starting at the bottom in PAS 1 (if that is what he is doing), might not be the best technique for a truely steep hill. Starting slow on low power isn't going to get one that far. It seems to me, hitting the bottom in pas 5 and pedaling like heck and toggling down as the speed falls might be the way to try .

I agree that the most efficient/effective way to get up a hill is to maximize the the energy applied to the climb. So it makes sense to use motor power to hit the hill at the highest speed possible (motor only power to keep your legs as fresh and rested as possible) and to keep applying as much motor power as possible - up to the point of damaging the motor - for as long as possible - and shift to more and more leg power as the motor begins to bog down.

But the impression I have is that Rolandhorth is a moderately strong rider who is climbing his main hill unassisted already. He's using PAS 1 because he wants to use lots-o human power - I'm assuming for training/fitness. He isn't trying to climb in the "best", fastest or most efficient way. He seems to have a different motivation.

What I'm curious about and unsure of is whether the caution about slow climbing with a Q100 motor applies when relatively low amounts of power are being fed to it. Since PAS 0 turns off any power to the motor I would think a person could climb slowly all day long and not hurt the motor. I'd think a PAS 1 level would be the next least stressful setting for the motor while climbing slowly. I'm assuming that the potential for damaging the motor comes from feeding it lots of current when it isn't spinning very fast. I can see how that can generate a lot of heat, a lot of stress on the nylon gears, and if there's a clutch in there, lots of stress on the clutch. If so, I can see how the caution against using climbing at slow speeds may not apply when a low power assist like PAS 1 is used.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

rolandhorth
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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by rolandhorth » Dec 11, 2017 1:03 pm

Just to follow up with some of the replies:
With the 12 magnet pas sensor and the sine controller I have instant power cutoff when I stop pedalling. I had planned on adding a kill switch, but really not needed. My prior RadPower Mini with its Bafang setup definitely needed the kill switch as it kept power on for a moment (and the power was about 2x more)

With 20 gears 53/39 11-28 on what is now about a 32# bike I can ride up anything unpowered. Because of the geography (corners and intersections) I have to start my steep climb from a standstill, otherwise I think the full speed attack plan is a good one. Leaving pas set to 1 seems to add input, but no sense of the motor lugging or overheating.

I find myself out of the saddle more on climbs and traffic lights. Partly because I am fresher due to the motor and partly to dump human watts into getting up to motor speed.

It was great when I did a low speed crash on black ice the other day (at the beginning of my commute) and could still get to work (despite a very sore leg) with the motor doing almost all of the work (@ 21mph). I did see my power level drop lower than the 50% I usually have left.

I am overseas at the moment but will try to post some pictures when back.

Still super happy with the results.

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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by chas58 » Dec 13, 2017 1:27 pm

@rolandhorth That is great Roland, sounds like you have created exactly what you need. I think a CX (or gravel) bike is the perfect platform for a fast light drop bar commuter for someone who wants to add their own pedal power. Your setup is great for someone who can do 18-20mph on their own.

Its kinda fun, isn’t it? Dead silent too.

For someone who does not want to add 200watts of your own power to get to 24-25mph, another option is to take the 260rpm version of the Q100 and run it on 48v instead of 36v.

@Wturber – those carbon bars look kinda cool. I have a hard time getting all the lights (bells, computers) on my computer bike in the dark days of winter. Touring bikes are a good option too, although the bigger the tire you can put on a road bike, the better. The ebike.ca simulator used to have an overheat time reading, but I think they took that away for some reason. But yes, your overheat time is dependent on the combination of load, speed, and power.

@motomech. For those of us running 36v, you can have modular bricks too (providing us extra range). Ebike.ca has ligo batteries in 36v bricks. The bonus of those is you don’t have to pay the surcharge for shipping lithium batteries.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by majornelson » Dec 13, 2017 10:34 pm

Is there an advantage to the Grin Technologies LiGo block(s) (assuming 3 to give you 294 Ah) compare to the Luna 52v Mighty Mini Cube?

Note- I realize that the LiGo blocks can be transported by plane and the Luna battery is 52v vs. 36v for LiGo (and that the Luna @52v will have a higher rpm in any given Q1xx than the 36v LiGo).

Looking to build out a city bike for my wife- power is not important but she does like the throttle vs. peddle assist.

Thanks,

Lee
Trek DS 8.4, MAC 8T, 48v
Brooklyn Cruiser Q100 Light Commuter Build
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 9&p=794208
1984 Schwinn Supper Sport Conversion
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=84433

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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by chas58 » Dec 14, 2017 9:55 am

Sort answer: range.

The basic advantage is they can be transported without normal lithium hassles.

But the can also be strung togetheer in various combinations.

I think it is a little silly to buy the biggest battery you would ever need and carry it with you every where you go. LiGo allows you to have a moderately sized battery for daily use (i.e. commuting for me) and then add on range for extended trips (i.e. weekend riding for me).

While you CAN NOT join two lithium batteries together (speaking generally), you can string LiGo batteries together with your current battery or with each other to give yourself the range you need (they have protection to prevent sudden charge/discharge that prevents stringing together normal batteries).

Other advantages - they are developing some cool blue tooth technologies to monitor your battery and some other future fun things..
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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Re: Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Post by rolandhorth » Feb 26, 2018 7:03 pm

here is a link to the extension bars on Amazon as requested

http://a.co/1rODfoz

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