Help Picking Kit for Hilly, Rainy Climate

Hi there! So I live in hilly VA, and we also get a fair deal of rain here. I have learned a lot from these forums, and I'm now at the point where I need to decide which of the good options that there are out there is the best for my situation, so I would appreciate any advice you can offer! I'll number the questions to make them easier to respond to... Please feel free to answer as few or many questions as you'd like! Also, I am definitely striving for quality over economy, to a limited extent. I'm trying to build a premium package for 1000-1200 dollars.

A bit about my usage: I will only be using it for about 2-3 miles per day... I have a short commute, but I like to go to the gym etc, so it winds up being a bit time consuming. VA can be kinda rainy -- I'm thinking of buying a cover for the bike for when I leave it outside at work.

1. I want a normal sized bike, but given that a normal size bike will be left outdoors, should I really buy a fold-a-bike so I can bring it inside?

2. If normal is OK, can it be a light bike, or should it be heavier?

3. I have narrowed my motor choices down to a rear BMC V-4 high torque ($600 http://bit.ly/1gRZHw5) and the MAC 500/100w rear (http://bit.ly/1i7UqFs). I read the BMC is more waterproof, but I like that the MAC has the temperature sensor, though. But I read you can address this issue with a motor management software program? The one thing about the MAC one is that I have no clue what controller or motor speed to go with... I've looked around, and I'm sure the info is there so I just need to dig a bit more. The last option is a rear geared 350-750 (?) watt E-bike Kit http://bit.ly/1kAjf0b.Which of these would you pick with the rain consideration in mind?

4. I am open to other suggestions re: hub motor kits, so please feel free to let me know if you think another might be more appropriate. OR, if you think Direct Drive is longer lasting, better, sturdier, then please let me know that as well.

5. Battery: I figure bigger is better, so I was thinking of going with http://bit.ly/1hFWJLj a 48V 15AH Ping Battery ($533). I would love to go with all cell but I can't really spend that much. I mostly need torque, but not range. Part of me wants to go to 20AH, but I want to keep it legal (750W or below)... just for peace of mind. Even though I KNOW no one would ever be the wiser, since I actually don't ever plan on going faster than 20mph for personal safety reasons / the fact that I'm riding around a lot of people, cars etc. Or should I go with a 36V? I am assuming not, but I am not against it if there is a good reason. Or does multiplying the V and Ah not have anything to do with it, and it is only the actual motor stated wattage that matters?

6. Part of me is tempted to go with a Cadillac model. But I'm worried about spending all this money and then having some rain destroy it or something like that, which is the main reason I wanted to keep it cheaper. If I were to go with a super premium Cadillac model, which would you recommend? (Or is BMC a Cadillac model? Top of the line everything (48V controller, Cycle Analyst, Kevlar tire, comes out of $1080)

Thanks so much for all your help -- Feel free to offer any advice or answer any questions that I may not have asked but should have!

Where in VA are you? I'm in Charlottesville. Am presently awaiting a kit from em3ev.

1. I'd be more worried about security than the the elements. You can cover it anywhere.
2. Weight of the bike won't matter that much. Heavier bikes will normally be stronger.
3. I wouldn't buy either of them if you're looking for reliability. Geared motors are more prone to failure due to gears and clutches in motor. The geared fans can argue that all they want, but that's just a fact. If I had to decide between the two, I'd go with the MAC simply because it's cheaper and the quality of the motors are probably equal.
4. DD motors don't have clutches or gears in them so they are definitely more reliable and will have a much longer mtbf.
5. Battery choices are many, Without knowing the range you need it's hard to make a recommendation as to ah size. But generally, a 36V battery will get you at least 20mph on a 500w dd motor. the one thing you need to do is make sure whichever battery you get is rated to put out as many amps as the controller is rated to draw. That's generally no more than 30A for most DD kits. Personally, I use nothing but rc lipo because it's the smallest, lightest, most powerful battery you can buy at this time and it's cheaper because of the volume it's produced in for the rc market. 20c is more than enough. If you don't know about C rates, you should before buying any battery.
6. The only thing Cadillac about any of these kits is the price, and possibly the spoke quality. They all come from the same place and motor quality will be no better on one over the other. I've got over 11K miles on my cheap ebay motor.

I'd buy one of these for a 26" bike and spend part of the remainder cash on a battery pack.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231132763662
http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Electric-Bike-Bicycle-Motor-Conversion-Kit-eBike-Rear-Wheel-48V-1000W-/370934929537
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Bicycle-48V1000W-LCD-Display-26-Rear-Wheel-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Conversion-/371036165224

wesnewell said:

5. Battery choices are many, Without knowing the range you need it's hard to make a recommendation as to ah size. But generally, a 36V battery will get you at least 20mph on a 500w dd motor. the one thing you need to do is make sure whichever battery you get is rated to put out as many amps as the controller is rated to draw. That's generally no more than 30A for most DD kits. Personally, I use nothing but rc lipo because it's the smallest, lightest, most powerful battery you can buy at this time and it's cheaper because of the volume it's produced in for the rc market. 20c is more than enough. If you don't know about C rates, you should before buying any battery.

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Wow awesome post thank you. You probably just saved me $2000. OK, so I'm going to go for your set up, and possible the battery as well. I've heard these batteries can be dangerous, though. Are they easy to charge / how much does yours weigh / do you think they can be dangerous? I would like a good range, if only to not have to charge every day. I'll be putting about 3 miles on total per day at the most.

oldwahoo54 said:

Where in VA are you? I'm in Charlottesville. Am presently awaiting a kit from em3ev.

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I'm also in Charlottesville!! Is this your first electric bike kit? Also, what package did you buy? And what fet controller? And what battery?

Also, what exactly is FET? Is a higher number better? I honestly searched this as well, and have only found one disparaging comment about a 6 FET, that was upgraded then to a higher FET. I am now looking at a 500W DD motor from ebay or EM3EV (thanks to everyone above!!)

A FET is a Field Effect Transistor, which is basically a large valve for controlling the flow of electricity. Like a valve for fluids, each FET has a maximum flow rate (current) and pressure (voltage) at which it will operate reliably. To increase the flow rate, which is to say the maximum number of amps, that a controller can reliably handle, manufacturers use multiple FETs in parallel. The more power you wish to use, the more FETs you may require in your controller.

noobiedoo said:

I've heard these batteries [RC lipo] can be dangerous, though.

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Yes, they are. They are fire-prone, and we have examples of fires among members of this forum to prove it. They also require more babysitting than other battery types.

Are they easy to charge?

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No, they are not easy to charge or live with. Probably because they are liability risks, nobody offers a plug-and-forget automated charger for such batteries. At a minimum, you'll need to buy a programmable balancing charger and a power supply for that charger, and then run it on each pack in turn (you'll need more than one pack to get the voltage you'll require). Or you can buy a charger and/or power supply for each pack so they can be charged simultaneously. Or you can use parallel or bulk charging, which is the sort of practice that gets folks into trouble, kills battery packs, and starts fires.

There's not a free lunch to be had here. Wes is comfortable cutting corners with his batteries (and his motor torque anchoring, and his bicycle itself) to a degree that not everybody here is willing to do.

For a more turn-key sort of system, you can get a lithium iron phosphate pack from cell-man or Ping that has integrated charging and battery management circuitry. A battery like that will have more than enough range for you, but less maximum power than what Wes is talking about. And it will weigh more and cost more.

I don't recommend a folding bike unless circumstances dictate one (like a train commute or a total lack of secure bike parking). A normal bike will work better even if it's suffering from exposure. You don't need anything elaborate or expensive, though-- a 20 to 30 year old steel mountain bike without a suspension fork is a very good platform for an electric bike conversion. You can use an aluminum framed bike or even a carbon composite bike, but it will require more precautions and will be more seriously damaged if anything goes wrong. Simpler is better most of the time.

noobiedoo said:

OK, so I'm going to go for your set up, and possible the battery as well. I've heard these batteries can be dangerous, though. Are they easy to charge / how much does yours weigh / do you think they can be dangerous? I would like a good range, if only to not have to charge every day. I'll be putting about 3 miles on total per day at the most.

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Unless you want 40+mph top speed you don't want or need my setup. I would suggest the 1000W motor over a 500W though, even if you only want to go 20mph. It's just a much more powerful motor with larger phase wires and doesn't cost that much more. It will be stressed less and you'll never overheat it as long as you stay under 30mph. My 24s battery pack weighs about 14lbs. It's 888wh and at 20mph will have a range of ~45 miles on flat ground. All batteries can be dangerous if not handled properly. I've never had a problem in over 3 years, and many have used them a lot longer than me without a problem. If you only need to go 3 miles a day, a simple $100 20C 5ah 12s 3.5lb pack is all you need. it will get you ~10miles @20mph or 5 miles wot @28mph on 1000W kit. There's all kinds of ways to charge rc lipo. The most common way is to use an rc balance charger, but there are other safe ways to do it, from bulk charging using external balancers to using a bms. Determine the wh of your pack, divide that by the wattage of your charger to find out how long that charging method will take you to charge your pack. A 5ah 12s pack is 111wh, so a $30 50W charger would take a little over 2 hours to charge it. A $95 300W Thunder 1220 charger would charge it in 25 minutes and let you balance charge all 12 cells together as one battery. If I didn't already have a 14s charger, that's what I'd get.
See this thread regarding how dangerous rc lipo is.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27241
BTW, if your iq is under 100, you probably shouldn't use rc lipo.

Noobiedoo,

At 6'2.5" I felt like the factory bikes were going to be a tad small, so I went to Community Bikes near the downtown mall and picked up a Trek Antelope 830 with a large frame for $25. Replaced a brake cable and pumped up the tires and it seemed rideable. Although I have a couple hundred worth of fenders, better tires etc. ready to order as soon as I know the kit from em3ev has shipped. My commute will be about 9 miles, or 5.5 if I drive to a Park'N'Ride lot. I maybe should have ordered a larger battery, but I have no intention of going over 20 mph, under power anyways, and the budget was getting a bit strained. Plus, it is partly about getting some exercise. Anyway, here is the kit I ordered. I can't evaluate it yet, obviously.

Mac 500W Starter Kit, 32km/h on 36V (20mph)
MAC500STKIT
- Controller Type: 6 Fet 25A (36-48V, IRFB3077)
- Upgrade 10T
- Wheel Type: 26" Alex DH19 CNC
- Throttle Type: Half Twist
- Ebrakes: Yes
36V Samsung Frame Mounted Pack (10.25-16.5Ah)
10SFRAME
- Configuration: 10S 6P, 22P cells, 36V, 10.25Ah
V3 Cycle Analyst Ebike Computer
CADPS
V3 CA PAS Sensor
CAPAS
Aluminium Case Charger 42V 2.5A,10S Li Ion/NCM
10SLI2A5CHARGE
- AC Plug Type: USA
Plastic 42V 2A Charger, without Fan

EB3 Program Cable
EB3PRGM
Ebike Tester
EBKTEST

the suggested links to ebay are all rear wheel
is that better than front?

oldwahoo54 said:

Noobiedoo,

Trek Antelope 830 with a large frame for $25.
Mac 500W Starter Kit, 32km/h on 36V (20mph)

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Sounds lik a really nice ride. It was a flip flop for me with the same setup, Not a good choice for the frame I had. But after linking to the bike you code I think it's a nice rig. Hopefully you'll post some pictures.

Being a MN WI boy I have a soft spot for Trek bikes. The LB here sucks but there are a lot of used Treks for good prices.

Tom

For most bikes rear is better. But some bikes will accept a front motor just fine, primarily those with a rigid steel front fork.

How steep are the hills? Even if too steep for the most efficient use, your short ride makes a dd motor quite practical.

There is a very nice frame mount battery available now at EM3ev. Strong enough for a 20 amps controller I think, but make sure you don't get the ebay kit with a 30 amps controller, unless you want to spend more on a larger battery.

I just got a chance, finally, to ride one of the motors Wes recommends all the time. I was quite impressed with its performance, despite my preference for a slower rpm hubmotor. It was not a bit sluggish from a stop sign, like some other fast rpm motors I have ridden in the past.

It's a faster wind, but clearly not too fast a wind for city use.

On the subject of rain proofing. No hubmotor is rain proof. But the motor itself is quite capable of running when submerged. Not recommended, but it will run.

The most vulnerable thing is the throttle, but you can cover the crack on a half twist throttle with your palm, and keep it dry. To park, just put a baggie on the handlebar.

After that, the controller and particularly the plugs are vulnerable to wet. They can all be sealed up.

From the many motor kits I have personally tested, the most water resistant by far is the direct drive kit from E-BikeKit. That vendor is located in the eastern USA, so any customer service you might need will be easier. That kit has a well sealed controller, and some very water resistant plugs. When I tested it, I rode through some very hard rains and very deep puddles with no problems whatsoever.

I have not tested one, but the new 750w bafang bb drive kit at EM3ev looks pretty interesting. The controller is built into the motor, so it has less external plug connections to waterproof. I have not heard from the folks that have one, whether it performs well in the wet. For sure, it's a well known fact that a bottom bracket drive can climb hills well.

The plug and play connections on the EM3ev kit are a nice snug snap fit. I hit each connector with ACF50 before putting them together. I feel confident about the resistance to moisture and water. The ACF50 also adds corrosion protection should microscopic amounts of water actually make it into the connection. Additional heat shrink protection might be a good idea for daily commuters.

The stock controller that comes with wesnewell's recommendation are quite adequate for most. The motor is quite durable and can be upgraded with a controller down the road.

The motor Wes recomended is fine, sort of. These motors can run submerged in water just fine, but they have no drain, so water that gets into the motor will cause it to rust and can damage the stator and bearings. Its usualy a good idea to open the motor up and cut some vent holes in the cover, along with coating the stator with conformall if you plan to keep it out in the rain very much.

Or just bring it in side. A folding bike isn't a bad idea.

As for torque, the BMC and MAC will have far more than the direct drive motor. the MAC is a clone of the BMC, however, the improved version of the MAC uses a larger stator and thicker gears making it a stronger, more robust motor. In this case, the copy is better than the original. For what you want to do, this is the motor I'd recommend.

Since you live in a hilly area, you're going to want to go for a 48v battery. They produce more speed but also more torque than a 36v battery would. Forget RC lipo. it is dangerous and can't be made safe. It is the Ebike equivilent of racing fuel, and realy has no place outside of high performance bikes and people who have the experiance to use it in the safest manner possable. LiFePO4 is the safe Lithium chemestry and what both Mr Pingand Paul at EM3ev.com sell. While Ping is the value leader, Paul's batteries are a little higher quality. He's also the vendor for the MAC, so buying the battery and controller from him will make the shipping cheaper, bringing the outlay for the battery closer to the cost of the ping shipped alone. One of his triangle mounted batteries or even the slide mounted batteries would do you well.

Oldwahoo54 has a great setup. A Trek 800 series is usualy my first recomendation.

Rear motor VS front is a matter of personal taste most of the time but riding in the rain, a rear motor makes more sense. having a front tire spin or slip in a corner is a crash. Having a rear tire spin or slip is almost always recoverable at normal speeds.

As for your concern about 750 watts, that is a motor rating, not a battery rating. you could carry 4,000 watt hours worth of battery and still be legal.