Going back to a bike-like-bike

Hi all, haven't posted here in a while.

I'm still using my powerful 100V bike that I built 4 years ago to get to work everyday. Its fun, fast and reliable, but I'm now looking for a more bike-like transport to get more exercise and ride with the kids.

I'm not looking for a high end road bike with ultra skinny tires but something more of an "hybrid" or "fitness" or whatever they call it bike with good quality components, 700c wheels, no suspension, aluminum frame and a cromo front fork (lots of nice offerings with those specs). While I want more exercise, I don't want to wear lycra and have to take a shower at work in the morning, so I would still be electrifying it for assist.

I'm thinking of fitting it with a light geared motor in the front wheel not to mess with the rear end and use a smallish 12s2p lipo battery (which I already have).

Basically, I'm looking for the smallest, lightest, stealthiest kit that will allow me to reach 32km/h on the flat. Hill climbing ability or quick acceleration are not that important for that bike. I'm a small guy at 5'7" and 160 pounds and my commute is on flat paved roads and bike paths only.

The ebikes.ca outrider (standard speed) kit looks like a good fit with the compact 15A controller, light motor and cycle analyst. This should give me a top speed around 35km/h, fast enough, but still good for pedalling.

The ebikekit geared motor (or similar version sold by ypedal) also looks interesting, but it looks bigger/heavier than the outrider and I don't think they support over 36V.

There are other options as well (MAC, Bafang, Cute) that I haven't researched yet.

My main concern is overheating the motor by putting it in a large wheel like the 700c and overvolting it (slightly) at 44.4V.

Any advice or recommendations?

This might have some useful ideas to add to the mix, keplers super commuter:
http://www.electricbike.com/kepler-super-commuter/

spinningmagnets said:

This might have some useful ideas to add to the mix, keplers super commuter:
http://www.electricbike.com/kepler-super-commuter/

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Thanks, I spent a few hours reading Kepler's thread on that bike. It's a masterpiece, way above my skill level and budget though

Those motors will just handle 48V and not much more.

You can run one on 72V, but they don't last 30 minutes at that pace. Halls burn up. I had an ebikekit geared mini hub in a 700c wheel that ran fine and did what you have described for the better part of a year, until I killed it with 72V on a commute.

At 48V, they should provide a nice fun boost to 22mph or so.

Just make sure to get your battery in the frame if you really want the bike to ride like a bike.

Here's my thread doing similar to what you describe. Pg 2 is where some completed pics show up....

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49889&hilit=700cc&start=25

I'm running 16S RC Lipo to a Q128H and can sustain about 22MPH (35km/h) drawing 300-400W. There's some weirdness/controversy about controllers for these "H" motors but I'm very happy with the performance of this combination. Obviously, 12S would require different speed motor/controller to reach your desired 32km/h.

Cheap bike but doing well. Integrated shifters/brakes but have no reason or troubles to upgrade. Quite a contrast with regard to riding heavy 2-2.5" tire stuff. 40lb bike as opposed to +70lb bike is different enough to be well worth the cost of admission IMO. Go for it!

As you may or may not know, I'm biased in favor of EBK.

The E-bikekit gearmotor can be run on 48v. And you get some nice choices with the 5 speeds on the dashboard. It installs exceptionally clean and waterproof too. Check out the controller they switched to in 2013.

Pick the lower settings for riding with slower bikes, and you get a very controllable throttle. Yet full amps are there when needed on a hill.

But if you are heavy, and want to run hard for a long distance, stick to bigger motors.

Another thing, if you are partial to a DD hub for any reason, conhismotor mini hubs are DD hubs that act a bit like geared hubs. They are really easy to pedal, I don't even notice any drag and are about the same power levels etc but you can do regen and don't have gears to worry about.

Thanks for the info guys.

The ebikekit geared hub looks like a nice clean turnkey option. I also like their LCD dashboard even if its in miles/mph only (I checked with them). They do mention that their controller supports up to 48V but the hub is only intended for use at 36V. Still, with my low weight and flat commute I'd be comfortable risking it at 44.4V.

On the other hand, I did check with Justin for the outrider and lacing it in a 700c is not a problem (although they are out of 700c wheels now). The outrider hub is slightly smaller and lighter but probably equally less powerful.

I'll have to research the conhismotor option a bit more. I didn't know they were making DD motors with such a small diameter. Are they quieter then their geared counterparts?

El_Steak said:

Thanks for the info guys.

The ebikekit geared hub looks like a nice clean turnkey option. I also like their LCD dashboard even if its in miles/mph only (I checked with them). They do mention that their controller supports up to 48V but the hub is only intended for use at 36V. Still, with my low weight and flat commute I'd be comfortable risking it at 44.4V.

On the other hand, I did check with Justin for the outrider and lacing it in a 700c is not a problem (although they are out of 700c wheels now). The outrider hub is slightly smaller and lighter but probably equally less powerful.

I'll have to research the conhismotor option a bit more. I didn't know they were making DD motors with such a small diameter. Are they quieter then their geared counterparts?

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I am presently using an E-BikeKit geared motor on one of my bikes and would NOT recommend it for a 700C bike build. Their geared motor is now a high-speed wind (~9 RPM/V) and in a 700C wheel it doesn't have much low-end torque. It also complains loudly up hills as speeds fall to the 14 mph range. With the fast winding it does offer good speed however, I easily get up to 24 MPH on 36V (700x2.15" tires).

I previously ran a slow-wind Bafang and the original slow-wind E-Bikekit geared motor on 15-16S Lifepo4 and later on 12S LiPo and found them to be a more satisfying all round combination. I have also run a standard Q100 motor on 12S LiPo and found it to be a smooth little motor but weaker than the Bafang or MXUS. I have not tried the Grin geared motor however the standard model's 7.8 RPM/V is a good compromise and should be able to achieve about 20 MPH in a 700C wheel even on 36V.

-R

check out ypedal.com. looks like a excellent kit but i have not personally used one but would highly consider it for a front hub build. jmo.

El_Steak said:

Thanks for the info guys.

The ebikekit geared hub looks like a nice clean turnkey option. I also like their LCD dashboard even if its in miles/mph only (I checked with them). They do mention that their controller supports up to 48V but the hub is only intended for use at 36V. Still, with my low weight and flat commute I'd be comfortable risking it at 44.4V.

On the other hand, I did check with Justin for the outrider and lacing it in a 700c is not a problem (although they are out of 700c wheels now). The outrider hub is slightly smaller and lighter but probably equally less powerful.

I'll have to research the conhismotor option a bit more. I didn't know they were making DD motors with such a small diameter. Are they quieter then their geared counterparts?

Click to expand...

I'm still figuring that one out actually.

Funny you ask, because this DD hub was noisy as heck, but it's a speed wound motor on a 700c wheel. Murderous gearing/winding combo for sure. But that was on a square wave controller.

Then, I bought a S12S from BMSBattery. It was noisy at first too, but I thought I might have the combination wrong. I fiddled with another combo and it ran silently backwards. So I switched 2 halls and 2 phases and it ran silently forward unloaded during testing. The only thing I could hear was the wind off the tires (it was FAST). Then I ran it up the block and it went quietly until I started having cutouts. I have ordered an LCD from them to see if it fixes the cutouts. I will do more testing with a full battery tonight and see.

So, I'm leaning towards the idea that this motor COULD be very silent with the right combo on a sine-wave controller.

I'm back from shopping for a new bike. Saw some nice ones, but there's not as many choices as I would have liked with a front Cro-Mo or steel fork. As soon you want higher end components , you get a damn carbon fork which is a no-no for a front hub. Rear hub would solve the problem, but I would prefer to leave the rear end intact and be able to easily swap out the motor wheel for the original wheel.

I'm leaning more towards the grin motor now which as Russell said should be a good fit in a 700c wheel with its slower RPM. But I'll still research the other stuff.

I'm also trying to calculate my expected wh/km to size the battery (12s2p or 12s3p). I think I remember a thread here where people would report their power usage, components, weight, etc. I searched a bit but can't find it. If anyone as the link, please let me know.

El_Steak said:

Thanks for the info guys.

The ebikekit geared hub looks like a nice clean turnkey option. I also like their LCD dashboard even if its in miles/mph only (I checked with them). They do mention that their controller supports up to 48V but the hub is only intended for use at 36V. Still, with my low weight and flat commute I'd be comfortable risking it at 44.4V.

On the other hand, I did check with Justin for the outrider and lacing it in a 700c is not a problem (although they are out of 700c wheels now). The outrider hub is slightly smaller and lighter but probably equally less powerful.

I'll have to research the conhismotor option a bit more. I didn't know they were making DD motors with such a small diameter. Are they quieter then their geared counterparts?

Click to expand...

The right geared mini-motor, front mounted in a nice riding and pedaling bike, makes for a very satisfying conversion.
The Ebikekit, and Amped Motors geared mini's are MXUS motors. I bought the entire frt. motor kit from Terry at Hightekbikes years ago and combined it with a 48V Lith.Ion rack battery from Grin. Although the battery was a bit of a disappointment(I use Lipo now, love it), the kit was truely plug and play and has been very reliable.
I was a total noob at the time and the kit was exactly right for me. But, knowing what I know today, there is no way I would spend that kind of money now. I could build 2 conversions from BMS Battery for the same amount, and in fact, I am doing exactly that as we speak.
Bms Battery has gotten mixed reviews here for a long time, but if you know what you are ordering, it would seem they have gotten their stuff together. I ordered a Q100 CST(bare motor), 2 controllers w/ LCD3 displays and a whole bunch of misc. extras on June 14 th., paid $100 shipping, and received it today.
It could be, that since you are in Canada, Ebike CA could save you some in import taxes, I don't know.
But as far asw the OutRider mini geared is concerned, it appears to be a fraternal, but not identical twin, of the MXUS.
Visually, it looks identical to the MXUS and both weigh the same(bare motor-2.3 Kg.), but the Photos I have seen, they appear to have different internal construction . I have run it thru the simulator and the results are about the same I get in the real world with my MXUS, so I suspect the winds are about the same.
I agree with Russel that a 700 wheel is a bit much for a mini geared. You could go with a slow wind, like a 201, but then you would need to up the Voltage to reach a good 11T/50T pedal target speed(22 to 24 mph). To that end, I would recommend a 26" wheel, and I would go further and recommend that you look at a Mountain bike.
Sure, a "hybred" would be a much better pedaler than a MB, but adding a motor pretty much negates that advantage unless you are intending to Hypermile.
If you have time, take a look at the second link in my Sig. The MSRP on the '07 Idrive was $1500 and I bought it for $750 in like new cond. What I got was a whole bunch of really cool hi-tech hardware like the Fox air shock, the linkage, sealed bearings and a fantastic Bomber fork that will easily take a mini-motor. It is just amazing how well these componets work, and you don't have to go off-road to appreciate them. And since you will using a very small pack of Lipo, battery space is not a concern.
So what I ended up with is an Ebike that does all the things you are looking for, plus an extra element that would term a "street fighter" quality. I just luv, "bombing" around town without having to back off due to surface conditions.
At any rate,if you decide to try and maximize the value of your build and go with BMS Battery, what mid-wind motor options would you have?
Looks like just two, the Bafang SWXK5 and the Q100H.
I have not used the Bafang, but it's a "bigger" mini and can take up to 22 to 24 Amps @ 12S. I would be a little concerned about frt. disc\caliper clearance and would suggest looking at the mechanical drawings. One thing that is nice about the MXUS, is the taper on the housing\cover and the wheel build where all the spokes are "inners". No clearance problems.
The Cutes I know. They are a smaller mini, weighing 1.8 Kg. and are super easy to mount. They will not tolerate the power I run thru my MXUS, but I'm thinking the H model will take about 20 Amps @ 12S, but that is more than any 6-fet from BMS Battery can supply. I use a 6-FET Mini-Monster from Lyen on my MXUS, It's set at 22 Amps and it really woke the motor up vs. the stk. 17 to 18 Amp unit.
One thing I really like about Ebike CA's OutRider kit is the controller. It looks to be a 6-FET Infinron detuned to 20 Amps.
If you don't need the Chinese PAS, something like that controller, the Q100H and your 165 Lb. weight(I'm jealous), would make a real nice, value packed build.

Tip: With BMS Battery, order the bare motor and build your own wheel, saves a lot on shipping.

Thanks for the detailed info mototech. I'm looking through the bmsbattery site and as you said, the Q100H also looks like a good cheap option. A tad bit slower at 7.2V/RPM, but its still fast enough for me on 12s lipo. The slower wind is also an option at 18s lipo, but that would complicate my Hyperion 1420i-based charging station (I made custom connectors to charge my 24s pack in 2 split 12s strings)

Geez, I didn't think there were so many options in geared hub motors! time for more reading...

You could compromise and run a 201 wind on 16S. I think that would generate enough speed.
If you were ok with that, that would open up more motor options, maybe the Q128.
I don't know of any frt. Q128 builds, so again, I would be a little concerned with brake disc\caliper clearance.

I have not tested a Q100H yet ( i want to ), but i would see it as comparable to the outrider motor, at least on spec sheets.

It may be a better choice due to it's slower winding and the fact that you're going to run 12S.

Also about 0.4lb. lighter.

Be careful with the controller choice however, it's a very very high RPM motor due to the reduction; a 6fet infineon-type EB3 would probably handle it best. If an EB3 6fet infineon can handle a MAC motor ( high pole count plus 5:1 reduction ), it should handle the Q100H just fine.

El_Steak said:

The ebikes.ca outrider (standard speed) kit looks like a good fit with the compact 15A controller, light motor and cycle analyst. This should give me a top speed around 35km/h, fast enough, but still good for pedalling.

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Yes, good choice, go with it.

My main concern is overheating the motor by putting it in a large wheel like the 700c and overvolting it (slightly) at 44.4V. Any advice or recommendations?

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Build it and see. If it overheats, then try one of the various approaches to cooling it. If that doesn't work, reduce the voltage.

Alright, I will go with the outrider, I like the motor, I like the controller, I like the cycle-analyst and I like giving my business to Justin. That being said, I'll also order a Q100H from BMSBattery since it's so cheap. I'll do some comparative tests and report back here. I still need to buy a bike, lace the motors and setup everything so it will take a while.

I think the universe sent me a message yesterday that it's time to get a new slower bike. I was going downhill at around 60km/h when I hit a small bump. This sent a jolt to my wrist and I broke something inside the throttle. When I reapplied the throttle just a bit, it went full throttle instantly (that's 100V, no amps limit). Wild wheely, almost threw me off the bike. I haven't got a chance to look at the damage in the throttle yet, but I'm not riding that bike until it's replaced.

El_Steak said:

Alright, I will go with the outrider, I like the motor, I like the controller, I like the cycle-analyst and I like giving my business to Justin. That being said, I'll also order a Q100H from BMSBattery since it's so cheap. I'll do some comparative tests and report back here. I still need to buy a bike, lace the motors and setup everything so it will take a while.

I think the universe sent me a message yesterday that it's time to get a new slower bike. I was going downhill at around 60km/h when I hit a small bump. This sent a jolt to my wrist and I broke something inside the throttle. When I reapplied the throttle just a bit, it went full throttle instantly (that's 100V, no amps limit). Wild wheely, almost threw me off the bike. I haven't got a chance to look at the damage in the throttle yet, but I'm not riding that bike until it's replaced.

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Maybe it's your bike getting mad at your for neglecting it and looking at other bikes :wink:

Speaking of the outrider, Justin answered me over email it would be the perfet kit for me given more or less the same requirement a few months back;
- 700cc wheel
- must be silent and stealth
- running on 12s lipo at 40 km/h

Here his full answer:

We have a fast wind motor normally meant for 20" wheels, and if you have that in a 700c wheel then it will hit your 40kph speed no problem with a 36V battery. Alternately, you could use the regular motor winding at 48V to achieve the same thing. The geared motors have a slight buzz, but it's really pretty minimal. You can't hear it at all if there is any traffic nearby.

-Justin

They definitely have a buzz... on top of that, front motors do like to send their torque through the fork, vibrating everything that is loose as well. I have the standard winding version and can hit 25mph on 120% mode on 36v..

Don't overdo it with the faster winding, plus 700c wheel. This motor does like to be pushed; it has excellent efficiency at 20-25mph; today i was going up a very very slight incline while pedaling lightly and doing 24mph; i saw about 400w average on the standalone cycle analyst - that's very impressive compared to my MAC!

cal3thousand said:

Maybe it's your bike getting mad at your for neglecting it and looking at other bikes :wink:

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Only the Universe sends messages. What with quantum foam, its always instantaneous, no matter where you are, and time is relative.

El_Steak said:

Alright, I will go with the outrider, I like the motor, I like the controller, I like the cycle-analyst and I like giving my business to Justin. That being said, I'll also order a Q100H from BMSBattery since it's so cheap. I'll do some comparative tests and report back here. I still need to buy a bike, lace the motors and setup everything so it will take a while.

I think the universe sent me a message yesterday that it's time to get a new slower bike. I was going downhill at around 60km/h when I hit a small bump. This sent a jolt to my wrist and I broke something inside the throttle. When I reapplied the throttle just a bit, it went full throttle instantly (that's 100V, no amps limit). Wild wheely, almost threw me off the bike. I haven't got a chance to look at the damage in the throttle yet, but I'm not riding that bike until it's replaced.

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<<<Alright, I will go with the outrider, I like the motor, I like the controller, I like the cycle-analyst and I like giving my business to Justin.>>>

Kwel beans. Definately the highest quality mini kit available.
But you still have some decisions to make.
Like which controller? The "NC" 20 Amper?
Which torque arm? As you can see on my Idrive link, I just use the standard version up frt. It could be either the Ebike CA or the BMS B. unit.
Will you just plug the Q100H into the Outrider controller? If so, you will need to make a 9-pin to JST\Anderson pigtail. You can order an extra pair of 9-pins from BMS B. and extra Andersons and bag of JST's from Ebike.
Speaking of JST's, I have found the cables on the controllers from Ebike to be very long, so that bag of connectors may come in handy.
And since you will be bike shopping; This is common sense, yet, nobody seems to mention it here, I find that dark color bikes to be much more stealthly. The wires and what-not blend in better.

<<<<I think the universe sent me a message yesterday that it's time to get a new slower bike. I was going downhill at around 60km/h when I hit a small bump. This sent a jolt to my wrist and I broke something inside the throttle. When I reapplied the throttle just a bit, it went full throttle instantly (that's 100V, no amps limit). Wild wheely, almost threw me off the bike. I haven't got a chance to look at the damage in the throttle yet, but I'm not riding that bike until it's replaced.>>>>

Yeah, 12S is very forgiving.
I don't even use Fuses, pre-charge resistors, Ebrake switchs or an on\off switch.
Every now and then, I'll lean against the thumb throttle with getting ready to ride. The bikes jumps a bit, but is easy to control.
The other day, I soldered on the wrong bullet connector and tried to plug two hot wires together, big flash, but it only melted one connector

Looking forward to your motor compairson

FYI about the outrider motor an infineon-type controllers...
On my cell_man EB3 controllers, all the colors of the phase and halls lined up color to color.

Just cut that 9pin and rewire to the connectors of your choice.

Alright, I bought the bike (2013 Specialized Sirrus) and should get it on Thursday.

I also have an order in for a Mavic A119 rim, Schwalbe Marathon tire, rim tape and tubes.

I'm now ready to order the outrider kit and custom spokes from ebikes.ca. I'll try lacing it myself, 2 cross pattern.

This all adds up to a fair chunk of change so I decided not to order the Q100H motor yet. I'll see how the Outrider works out first.

Thanks for all the help!