Batteries Li-ion, LiFePO4, Li Co or Imr Li-ion hybrids?

macribs

macribs

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For a build I will use the Cromotor v3 and would like to get much power from the motor.
I am not sure what battery chemistry to choose. I will run minimum of 48 v more likely 72 v or 96 v.

Goal:

  • Fast acceleration, the faster the more fun
  • Min 40 mph
  • Minimum 15 miles range
  • Durable

I've seen both the Panasonic NCR18650PD are used to e-bikes as well as the Headways 38120 large cells Lifpo4.
And some others uses those square boxed heat shrunk from hobbyking.

But I have no clues what to choose. I can not even decide what is better Li Io or Lifpo4 or Li Po.
I've read wiki's, googled and both of these seems to be able to take 1000+ charges, both allow for rapid charge/discharge and both of those types comes in a variety of form factors. Some are packed together nicely and pre connected like the Allcell's, other are single batteries like the Panasonic NCR Li Io that needs spot welding or heavy soldering. What about those of you that has tried both Li Io and LiFePO4, what do think is better suited for a high performance e-bike? And why is one better then the other. Personal experience as well as feelings about this matter are much welcome.

So when choosing batteries there are many things to consider, and I probably left out things other feel is important just because I don't know any better. So you are welcome to add to the list.

  • Power to weight ratio
  • Charge/Discharge speed
  • Longevity
  • Price
  • Ease of installation and assembly (spot welding, soldering etc)
  • Stackable - how well they stack into frame
  • Best punch for your bucks.

I forgot to mention that I will run at least 72 volt or 96 volt. If I get good prices I might even go higher.

I did find that Sony now has the new hybrid VTC5 out now. That has even better specs then the previous v4.
But as I am not confident spot welding, I must then outsource that so costs will go up. Then I found that Chinese manufacturers are also doing those Imr Li-ion hybrids. Lower prices and best part of it all they comes in ready made packages. No spot welding required. Just assemble as many packs as needed to fit v and Ah needs and connect the cables.

As of the moment imr 18650 li-ion battery packs seems like the way to go, cause they got the hi power output of li co without the safety issues.
 
That all depends on what you plan to do with it. For that Cromotor you are looking at, you would need Lipo to give it enough amps to justify having it.

But it won't be a good commuter, and I seem to remember that's where you started out, wanting to build a commuter bike. Lipo are far to labor intensive and dangerous, not to mention short lived to use for a commuter. LifePO4 are ideal for a commuter bike.
 
Drunkskunk said:
That all depends on what you plan to do with it. For that Cromotor you are looking at, you would need Lipo to give it enough amps to justify having it.

But it won't be a good commuter, and I seem to remember that's where you started out, wanting to build a commuter bike. Lipo are far to labor intensive and dangerous, not to mention short lived to use for a commuter. LifePO4 are ideal for a commuter bike.
Click to expand...


Yeah I saw reports of LiPo burning and also go up with a bang. Hm that does not sound to safe.
So going for Li ion is not really an option with the cromotor?

What makes Lithium polymer better? They pack more energy in each battery? Tiny smartphone lipo's are like 4.000 mah and even 5.000 mAh. Don't think I have seen any lithium ion batteries with that capacity in such small packages as the polymer ones.

So all the hi powered bikes (more like motox bikes really) I've seen here on this forum that really accelerate and goes like a motox they all uses lipo? And they can not do a 15 km (9 miles) run without charge? *Confused* :?

Too bad I was always buzy programming and sketching back in high school, I should have paid more attention whenever my physics teacher was talking :) Cause I can't remember anything but Ohm's law :D
 
what is li lo? where did you see lipo go up with a bang? not here in any case.

the only lipo fire we have evidence of here was a big 35S lipo pack that floont was bulk charging with serial meanwell power supplies and no BMS or pcm to protect it, and he never really talked about it.

the only other lipo fire was greg's and it was caused by a short in the sense wire harness while charging with a BC168 which i constantly am warning people not to use but they do anyway.

there has not been a single fire which was started by overcharging leading to thermal runaway for any lipo pack being charged with the regular balancing chargers used for RC planes or being charged with a bulk charger under protection of a BMS. none.
 
A 10ah 24s 20C lipo pack rated for 200A and this controller rated for 100A will give you lots of power, up to 10KW.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-60V-96V-5000W-powerful-hub-motor-controller-e-scooter-controller-G-K043/1685117898.html
 
I think you mean LiIo, which is Lithium Ion. the second I is in caps, and gets confused with an "L" apparently.

Lithium Ion batteries are a large group, including almost all rechargeable Lithium formats. LiFePO4 is one type. LiCoO2, which we usually mean when we say LiPo, is another.

LiPo, or to be more specific, Lithium Cobalt, LiCoO2, is one of the most energy dense forms of battery commercially available. It has very good energy density, and because of it's low internal resistance, can pump out the amps very well. But that comes with tradeoffs. It has a low cycle life, and a reactive chemistry combined with it's high power density mean when things go wrong, they go very wrong. And things do go wrong. Even when you get everything right, you can still have a defective cell, or have some outside influence affect the battery. So they need constant care and supervision during charge and use.
LiPo are essentially racing fuel for Ebikes. They are our equivalent of running Nitro Methane.

Batteries like LiFePO4 are less energy dense, though still very high energy. Many can handle high outputs, though less than LiPo. They do weight more, but have a cycle life 2 to 3 times Lipo. The cost per cell is about the same, but over their life, a good LiFePO4 will cost much less than LiCoO2. LiFePO4 don't tend to go into thermal runaway and explode. Cells that fail might get hot enough to set other things on fire, but you won't see 6 foot flames shooting out of a pack all by it's self. They can be reasonably charged unattended, as any other normal battery. That makes them idea for commuter bikes. If you need to charge at work, you can charge them outside, or in the break room, or where ever. they don't need you necessarily sitting there watching them, ready to pull the plug and call 911 the instant they start to flare. When you want a battery that lasts and performs well in all conditions, this is what you choose.

As for high powered bike getting sh1tty range, well. Duh. :lol: The faster you go, the more power you use. the more power you use, the less power you have. Generally you can build a bike that goes fast, or far. Not both at the same time. When you get past a certain point, the battery needs a bigger frame than is reasonable for a bike, and you've crossed into motorcycle territory. Then you start looking at Zero Motorcycles and wondering why you ever wanted an electric bicycle. There's a great writeup on the power curves here: http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Efficiency
and a good graph here:
Watts_%3D_Speed_HP.jpg
 
Drunkskunk said:
I think you mean LiIo, which is Lithium Ion. the second I is in caps, and gets confused with an "L" apparently.

Lithium Ion batteries are a large group, including almost all rechargeable Lithium formats. LiFePO4 is one type. LiCoO2, which we usually mean when we say LiPo, is another.

LiPo, or to be more specific, Lithium Cobalt, LiCoO2, is one of the most energy dense forms of battery commercially available. It has very good energy density, and because of it's low internal resistance, can pump out the amps very well. But that comes with tradeoffs. It has a low cycle life, and a reactive chemistry combined with it's high power density mean when things go wrong, they go very wrong. And things do go wrong. Even when you get everything right, you can still have a defective cell, or have some outside influence affect the battery. So they need constant care and supervision during charge and use.
LiPo are essentially racing fuel for Ebikes. They are our equivalent of running Nitro Methane.

Batteries like LiFePO4 are less energy dense, though still very high energy. Many can handle high outputs, though less than LiPo. They do weight more, but have a cycle life 2 to 3 times Lipo. The cost per cell is about the same, but over their life, a good LiFePO4 will cost much less than LiCoO2. LiFePO4 don't tend to go into thermal runaway and explode. Cells that fail might get hot enough to set other things on fire, but you won't see 6 foot flames shooting out of a pack all by it's self. They can be reasonably charged unattended, as any other normal battery. That makes them idea for commuter bikes. If you need to charge at work, you can charge them outside, or in the break room, or where ever. they don't need you necessarily sitting there watching them, ready to pull the plug and call 911 the instant they start to flare. When you want a battery that lasts and performs well in all conditions, this is what you choose.

As for high powered bike getting sh1tty range, well. Duh. :lol: The faster you go, the more power you use. the more power you use, the less power you have. Generally you can build a bike that goes fast, or far. Not both at the same time. When you get past a certain point, the battery needs a bigger frame than is reasonable for a bike, and you've crossed into motorcycle territory. Then you start looking at Zero Motorcycles and wondering why you ever wanted an electric bicycle. There's a great writeup on the power curves here: http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Efficiency
and a good graph here:
Watts_%3D_Speed_HP.jpg
Click to expand...


Thanks for taking the time skunk and great link btw.
Funny you should mention Zero, I just saw a few great priced Zero's for sale. And then I thought exactly what you said. It probably will be cheaper, easier and less time spend on tweaking to buy a second hand Zero. A great thing about Zero's in my country (norway) is that there are no import tax or VAT on EV. That even goes for electric motorcycles. :)

But I don't know how smart it is to buy second hand Zero. Lot's of changes to the Zero's over the years. They swapped battery suppliers a few time, and I also think they changed their motors as well. Not to mention all the software/firmware changes they made just the past couple of years. I think one must be sure to be able to handle any financial outlays that might occur during ownership of a Zero. What do you do if batteries looses power? Get new ones? Well there was a reason the changed their suppliers, so probably not a great idea to buy the exact same batteries. And will different batteries fit the firmware? Probably not. Will Zero sell you their firmware, not so sure about that. But I must say I've been following Zero for a few years now, and I like their takings on things. After all, they are doing ground breaking changes for 2 wheelers.

Good thing is I don't have to decide today. I can ease my way into this, learn a little about batteries and controllers, how to get max out of electric motors and when I am done with that I can make a well founded decision. If I would make any choices today it would be pure luck cos I still have no idea what moves in the world of electric transportation.
 
Drunkskunk said:
LiPo, or to be more specific, Lithium Cobalt, LiCoO2, is one of the most energy dense forms of battery commercially available.
Click to expand...

LiMnO2, like they use in 18650 cells has a much higher energy density than LiPo. Discharge rates also seem to be increasing. These have 266wh per kg:

http://www.fasttech.com/product/1141100-panasonic-ncr18650b-rechargeable-3400mah-3-7v
 
Those are getting better. But for the best density of price, c rate, and actual energy density, its still Hobby Kings, lico packs for the cromotor.

But as DS made clear, it' not your best choice for a daily commute. You won't see them used in a Tesla.


The real problem is how to carry enough watt hours to go far, at 40mph + (60kph) It's just always going to be wind drag eating your battery up fast. So the high density of LiMnO2 is turning into the way to go. To haul ass very far, you have to carry a huge pack anyway, so make it big enough and you will have your amps.

And all your money will be gone. :wink:
 
d8veh said:
Drunkskunk said:
LiPo, or to be more specific, Lithium Cobalt, LiCoO2, is one of the most energy dense forms of battery commercially available.
Click to expand...

LiMnO2, like they use in 18650 cells has a much higher energy density than LiPo. Discharge rates also seem to be increasing. These have 266wh per kg:

http://www.fasttech.com/product/1141100-panasonic-ncr18650b-rechargeable-3400mah-3-7v
Click to expand...


Hm 15.5 $ for two batteries. And I need about 100. I think I saw them at ali or alibaba for around 5$ a pop.
So 30% off. Well I will see what prices I get for bulk.
 
dogman said:
Those are getting better. But for the best density of price, c rate, and actual energy density, its still Hobby Kings, lico packs for the cromotor.

But as DS made clear, it' not your best choice for a daily commute. You won't see them used in a Tesla.


The real problem is how to carry enough watt hours to go far, at 40mph + (60kph) It's just always going to be wind drag eating your battery up fast. So the high density of LiMnO2 is turning into the way to go. To haul ass very far, you have to carry a huge pack anyway, so make it big enough and you will have your amps.

And all your money will be gone. :wink:
Click to expand...


Thx I will look into LiMno2 as well as the lico packs from Hobby king.
Here is the crazy 90 C batteries from Hobbyking:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__49509__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_7500mah_2S2P_90C_Hardcase_Lipo_Pack.html

Code: 
Specs:
Capacity: 7500mAh
Voltage: 2S2P / 2S Cell / 7.4V
Discharge: 90C Constant
Weight: 350g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 138.5x46.5x24.9mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 5mm Bullet-Connector
Model no: NC7500.2S2P.9


Does that mean I need 96V / 7.4 v = 13 batteries from Hobbyking to have a 96 volt setup in series circuit?
And I will get 13 * 7500 mAh = 97.500 mAh = 97.5 Ah?
Or do I need to hook it up them up differently?


Edited: Hm. That was so wrong, in series I would still get the same mAh. So 7.5 Ah.
And that will not get me far. So how do I set up a batteries like that to have 96 volt and about 100 Ah?

Here are some others 90 C batteries:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__1301__85__Batteries_Accessories-90C_Discharge.html

Is there any website that will help me figure the setup correct and calculate how many packs I need to get desired volt and Ah?
 
I am ready to get a Zero any day now :D
I messed up the math for the battery pack. But then I saw this from hobbyking:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=21385

Code: 
Spec.
Capacity: 5800mAh
Voltage: 8S1P / 8 Cell / 29.6V
Discharge: 25C Constant / 35C Burst
Weight: 1025g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 167x46x64mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 5.5mm Bullet

It has a lower C, of 35 burst. Will that work with the cromotor?

They got this one on sale now:

Code: 
Spec.
Capacity: 5000mAh
Voltage: 6S1P / 6 Cell / 22.2V
Discharge: 45C Constant / 90C Burst
Weight: 813g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 157x49x50mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 4mm bullet-connector

Hm 24 of those should give me 88 volt and 25 Ah. 4 batteries in series make a cell of 88 volt. And if I make 6 of those I have 30 Ah. Will that be sufficient? Or do I need double that Ah? That will be a significant cost.
I doubt it will be worth it.

How far can I go say at 30-40 mph with at battery setup like that? 88 volt and 30 Ah?
Will it be enough to experience thrilling acceleration from the cromotor?

Those batteries are expensive even on sale.
 
6 in the morning and I haven't slept at all tonight. My eyes are crossed and I am ready to cave any minute.

Did I by any chance do the math wrong? Do I really need 30 Ah or even 60 Ah for get the power?
I mean all those batteries will add significant weight as well.
 
the only thing that goes higher when you put batteries in serial, is the voltage and wat hours, AH does not go higher.13 7500mah 7.4V batteries in series is a 7.5ah 96.2V pack. 55.5wh per pack.
 
In Norway you DO have hills :)
30Ah pack is plenty for every day use, expecially if it"s very high voltage. You ride 100 kilometres with it, roughly. If you keep your speed down around 25-30mph.
Of course norwegian hills can eat you pack fast if you want to maintain your speed.
For serious touring 30Ah is pretty much minimum.
Bigger you pack is, less C you"ll need, to make your pack last. Of course highest C gives the best performance.
 
Eskimo said:
In Norway you DO have hills :)
30Ah pack is plenty for every day use, expecially if it"s very high voltage. You ride 100 kilometres with it, roughly. If you keep your speed down around 25-30mph.
Of course norwegian hills can eat you pack fast if you want to maintain your speed.
For serious touring 30Ah is pretty much minimum.
Bigger you pack is, less C you"ll need, to make your pack last. Of course highest C gives the best performance.
Click to expand...


Hm. If I make a 96 volt system with 15 Ah batteries with C value of 30 how would that affect acceleration, top speed and range, compared to a 96 volt system with 30 Ah batteries with C value of 30?

Or what about a 96 volt system with 15 Ah batteries with C value of 45-90 and a 96 volt system with 30 Ah batteries with C value of 45-90 (90 burst, 45 sustained)

In those cases would I mean significant difference in acceleration and speed to go for the safer Lifepo4 over the Lico battery?

Btw I do not really need much range. 50 kilometers would be sufficient.
 
macribs said:
Hm. If I make a 96 volt system with 15 Ah batteries with C value of 30 how would that affect acceleration, top speed and range, compared to a 96 volt system with 30 Ah batteries with C value of 30?

Or what about a 96 volt system with 15 Ah batteries with C value of 45-90 and a 96 volt system with 30 Ah batteries with C value of 45-90 (90 burst, 45 sustained)

In those cases would I mean significant difference in acceleration and speed to go for the safer Lifepo4 over the Lico battery?

Btw I do not really need much range. 50 kilometers would be sufficient.
Click to expand...


C rate is the capacity rate, so 30C means 30 times your capacity. That means a 96v 15AH battery with 30C capacity can produce 450 amps, and 43200 watts of power. More than 57 horsepower. That's more power than a Prius in electric mode. Its more power than you will need on a bicycle. If you could fit a motor that could actually use that kind of power, it would do this to a normal bicycle:
hulk_smash_loki.gif
:mrgreen:

Not that it's a bad thing in a battery, it's just massive overkill. So the difference between a 30C and a 45C battery when you run 15AH is essentially none.
 
So maybe look for a motoX bike with a wrecked engine at a bargain price then? Use everything, frame, sub frame, forks, shocks. Just weld on a crank to make it "a bicycle" mount some pedals and clear and free. The other option is to go a decent used DH bike, and it will be priced almost similar to a motox carcass but DH will have less strength and cos less weight.

Well sure it will be heavy using a motorx as a starting point but that think will withstand every and all abuse I will be able to throw at it over and over again. Then again I've seen several hi powered bikes here that uses home made steel frames or cro moly frames. And those got to be heavier then a braced up aluminium moto cross frame?
The wheels, forks, shocks, frames and subframes will take the torque and forces from the motor, as they are made for big air and rough landings as well as withstanding the moto cross engines beating.

What ya think?
 
macribs said:
So maybe look for a motoX bike with a wrecked engine at a bargain price then? Use everything, frame, sub frame, forks, shocks. Just weld on a crank to make it "a bicycle" mount some pedals and clear and free. The other option is to go a decent used DH bike, and it will be priced almost similar to a motox carcass but DH will have less strength and cos less weight.

Well sure it will be heavy using a motorx as a starting point but that think will withstand every and all abuse I will be able to throw at it over and over again. Then again I've seen several hi powered bikes here that uses home made steel frames or cro moly frames. And those got to be heavier then a braced up aluminium moto cross frame?
The wheels, forks, shocks, frames and subframes will take the torque and forces from the motor, as they are made for big air and rough landings as well as withstanding the moto cross engines beating.

What ya think?
Click to expand...

Sure, Or... and this would be cheaper, faster, and better, ... you could : http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ :mrgreen:
My bike cost more to build than a Zero FX would New, and I have a fairly tame bike.

This kind of power creep is normal. You came here wanting a commuter bike, something that could probably have been built for >$1500. And you kept finding ways it could be a little better, and a little better. Now you're gone past the point where a bicycle is even relevant anymore. But the power creep won't end here. Soon the Zero FX will start looking inferior to the Zero SR, and soon after that, the Zero brand will look inferior to the Brammo, and you'll see picture like this, and realize you will only be happy when you mount one:
brammo-empulse-babes-630.jpg


It happens to us all. At some point you have to decide to settle on good enough, and stick with it. There is always going to be better.
 
Hm can't see that pic you posted.

Well at least I found some cheaper batteries. Those are Lifepo4 so safe to charge unattended.

Code: 
Spec.
Minimum Capacity: 4500mAh
Configuration: 6S2P / 19.8v / 12Cell
Constant Discharge: 30C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 40C
Pack Weight: 899g
Pack Size: 141 x 43 x 75mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: 4mm Bullet-connector

PRODUCT ID: T4500.6S.30F


This will cost about the same as the cromotor.

I will need 4 of these in series to make almost 100 volt. Then for range 4 of those 100 volt cells in parallel to get 18 Ah.
Not too pricey and still with a 40 C burst rate and 30 C sustain.

How will this battery pack in that configuration handle acceleration, speed and range? Let's say 30 mph sustained speed for commuting, little less somewhere and a little more on the flats in between hills. What kind of power will I be able to draw from this 100 volt 18 Ah setup? Will it be significant lower performance then if I used lico batteries? And if that is the case could I combat the loss of power by going for a 120 v 18 Ah lifepo4 setup? Prices will still be lower then the lico packs. And far safer when charging I guess.

I did check with the Department of vehicles today about import of a Zero from US but it would be almost impossible to get plates on that thing.
Some sort of EU not compatible with the US regulation when the Department issue the proper paper work for the manufacturer so that their vehicles are homologated and approved for registration according to DV's safety rules and regulations. If I would import from US I would need prior to 2003 registration in *US for joint approval. Well show me an electric motorcycle prior to 2003 and I will buy it. :x :roll: :shock:

In Norway the official importer of an American brand motorcycle will have to do the whole thing from scratch with safety approved testing, sound checks, radio interfearence etc. So that add a major cost to the bikes when the get sold to consumers. And because of that cost the official importer will not part with their approved documents to me so I can get plates on a Zero. So for the moment a used Zero will run around 18.000 $ in Norway. And you can pick em up used in the US for 3-4.000 $ and upwards. So I guess the Zero is off the table and a home made electric motorcycle (zero clone) with bicycle crank and pedals will allow me big savings. No yearly fees, no insurance and no god dang taxes. So I guess it is what it is. Home made "bicycle" it is. :twisted: :twisted:
 
If you remove the zero behind the C ratings of those HK lifepo4 battery packs you'll be closer to their actual discharge rates.There's a thread on them in the battery section. Find it and read it before you spend a lot of money on them.
 
Hm. So is there any Lifepo4 batteries that actually are for real? If it's all lies and cheap knock-offs sold for the price of gold it's makes it easier to understand why no more people jump aboard the electric vehicle boat. Lies, scams and knockoffs. It really does not help where you try to make a purchase. You try to order a few Adidas products online and they get tagged in customs as knockoffs counterfeit clothing. A few years back on of the big retail chains here got caught for selling hi end sporting goods and clothings as the real thing while it was actual fakes. I hate the fact that it's so much scamming everywhere.

Is there any manufacturers or retailers of batteries that do actually test their products and label them according to pure facts rather then overselling and overstating so they can sell at inflated prices?

It's not even worth proceeding with an e-bike if one can't even make plans based on the facts one is served from a retailers website. And for sure not I will not giveany money to stealing con artists like hobbyking.com. There is no point to try to by Lico batteries from hobbyking.com either. Those 90 C Lico batteries are probably also just fake labeled bullshit and are more likely 9 C rated then 90 C rated.

Where can I go to find legit batteries, with proper labeling, complete specs and zero scam?


Links to any website with a proven track record will be very much appreciated.
 
The Hobbyking LiFePO4 are crap, when used for an ebike. But they're fine for their intended role, which is being used in a toy, and being sold at a price that was 4 times less than the going rate when they came out. They have no use in an Ebike.

Their Lipo are a different story. Granted, these are not Polyquest or Thunderpower cells, and you can't expect top shelf quality for rock bottom prices. But they do work very well for the money. There are cheaper options, but you get what you pay for. there are more expensive options, and you also get what you pay for there, too. Most people have found the Turnigy packs from HK are the best bang for the buck. I use 20C packs, and have run them at 20C. They do sag hard. But they also work fine. And since I usually run my bike with a 3P pack instead of 1P, they rarely see more than 6.7C, and don't even get warm at 100 amps.

HK has been both an innovator and a price leader since they came along. At the time, Lithium was 4 to 5 bucks per watt. I paid $100 a piece for Thunderpower 11.1v 2200mAh packs, and thought that was a great deal for the performance they gave my planes. Now I can get a Turnigy 11.1v 2200mAh for $8.50 from HK.

I'm not saying they are a great company, but their existence has changed the world of Ebikes as much as they have changed the world of RC.
 
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