MAC 10T vs EZee V2

While I've narrowed down my choices, I'm having a hard time deciding between the Mac 10T and the eZee V2 250rpm (both geared hub motors). I have a Trek Marlin 6, 700cx2.00" wheels and 48V 15Ah Li-Ion battery from Calibikes. My requirements are as follows:

- I need the torque to climb about 13-15% grade hills in Seattle (up to 0.7 miles long). I have about 3 such hills on my 8 mile commute. I don't need to climb at high speeds (say, 10mph on hills is OK), but I should be able to start climbing from a dead stop (traffic sign)
- I'm happy with around 25-28 mph top speed on flatlands.
- I am happy to pedal assist to a certain extent. I don't want to exert myself on the hills though (don't want to reach work all sweaty)

I live in Seattle, so ordering the eZee from ebikes.ca in Vancouver is more convenient (warranty, spare parts, etc.). However, the eZee V2 kit only comes with a 25A controller (don't know if its safe to run with at a higher amp controller). On the other hand, the Mac 10T can be run at 30A, hence higher torque, but has to ship all the way from China. Any thoughts on the low speed torque of the two?

Any thoughts on which of the two motors fits the bill better would be much appreciated!

I run a MAC 10T with 40A (12FET controller) on a similar setup (29er - 700c rims with 2"-2.3" wide tires). Most of my hills are under 10% incline which the MAC10T will "easily do" with speed. On that type off incline, it's about throttle control though as the front starts lifting if you punch the throttle too hard. It catches you off guard the first few times but you get used to it and try to put weight up front. A MAC10T on a 700c / 29er wheel on 48V (14S lipo) will do 30mph as well if you're also after good travel speed as well as torque. Have a read of my build log (in sig) to see where I started and what I ended up with.

Hi Raged,

Thanks for your reply. I've looked at your build before - very inspiring, indeed! Especially because I'm planning on having a setup very similar to yours. I've read about quite a few builds using the MAC, and have learnt that it'd be a really good fit. Though, I'm also wanting to get someone's opinion on the eZee - mainly because shipping/returns/warranty is less of a hassle (even though it ends up being like $150-200 more). Would it have the same low speed torque as the MAC 10T?

I believe that the ezee is a smaller and less capable motor.

According to the ebikes.ca simulator, it looks like the eZee is a probably a better choice because it gives comparable power on the 15% climbs at higher efficiency which translates into less waste heat and a longer time to overheat.

The BMC V2S and BMC V2T are roughly equivalent to a MAC 8T and MAC 12T respectively - so you can find the 10T somewhere in between.
Assuming:

• 48v, 700c, 100kg mtn bike
• MAC with 35A controller
• eZee with 25A controller

Torque:

• MAC 8T = 100Nm off the line
  MAC 12T = 128Nm off the line
  So: MAC 10T ~= 114Nm off the line
  
  eZee = 115Nm off the line

On the flat:

• MAC 8T = 30mph
  MAC 12T = 25mph
  So: MAC 10T ~= 27.5mph
  
  eZee = 26.9mph

On 15% incline:

• MAC 8T = 12.8mph - overheat in 4.4min
  MAC 12T = 14.7mph - overheat in 6.9min
  So: MAC 10T ~= 13.5mph - overheat in ~5.7min
  
  eZee = 11.2mph - overheat in 18min

Upgrading the eZee to a 35A controller gives:

• Torque: eZee= 140Nm off the line
  On the flat: eZee = 27mph
  On 15% incline: eZee = 15.5mph - overheat in 14min

Under load, these motors are running controller-limited, so using a conservative controller is going to directly affect the torque and speed e.g. hill climbing.

You have a bad situation in that you have three longish hills (.7mi) for a total of about 2mi of hill in a short 8 mi commute. These gear motors don't dissipate heat well and so you need to look at the climb pretty much as one big hill since the motors won't shed the heat after the first climb - putting the next climb at a disadvantage. Looking at the simulator 'time to overheat' specs, we see for a 15% climb that the bike could travel these distances before overheating at WOT (you need to go 2mi):

MAC 10T (35A): 5.7min/(60min/hr) x 13.5mph = 1.2mi
eZee (25A): 18min/(60min) x 11.2mph = 3.36mi
eZee (35A): 14min/(60min) x 15.5mph = 3.61mi

This seems to make the eZee the winner for a 2mi climb even in the stock 25A configuration. You could look at the MAC with reduced throttle - I just did the WOT cases.

• It's worth noting that the simulator is generally convervative on the time-to-overheat spec for a couple of reasons (ie the time is too short). Also, although the MAC-to-BMC correspondence is valid for power and speed, the heat dissipation of the MAC case may differ slightly from the BMC one-piece case - how exactly is unclear, but it does make this particular figure more suspect.

In another vein, the eZee is built more like the BMC as far as case design is concerned and has double-lipped oil seals external to the bearing to help keep out water. This is not a determining factor, but does go in the plus column if looking for small tie-breakers.

I included the eZee at 35A above in case you want to upgrade your kit with the larger controller. Whether ebikes.ca will do this or recommend it is another matter to investigate, but the stats are interesting. This will have an impact on clutch longevity, but there really isn't much history here on ES about these motors - never mind at higher current - so ebikes.ca is the best source on such an upgrade.

Regardless of your choice, I would recommend CA V3. This will give you throttle ramping to soften the gear/clutch loading on getaways (particularly on the hills). If you get a MAC it will give you temperature sensing and throttle rollback on overheating. The eZee motors don't seem to have a temp sensor, but the conservative controller and kit design is really aimed at the non-Woohoo! crowd. As seen above, the stock 25A eZee kit is a pretty safe hill-climber for just about any rider, so.... The CA will also allow you to dial down the Amps from a 40A controller for the eZee to something more conservative - say 30A-35A.

I think the MAC is a tougher motor that has had gear and clutch improvements that make it a favorite to push to high wattages. The eZee is expensive and ebikes.ca has worked to build something reliable that runs as a solid no-maintenance workhorse for the 'everyman' user. They really address different demographics and it looks in this case (hills) that the eZee will make a good commuter for your application. I say this based on the simulator stuff even though I own a couple of BMCs and a MAC...

FWIW:

• A post about the eZee V2: here.
  A post about the eZee V2 upgrade: here.
  A post about thinner lams and new gears: here.

Anyhow - make what you will of this stuff - it's just a little data mining from the simulator....

Wow! That's a fantastic answer! It should be sticky-ed or something. I really did learn a lot about how to interpret the results of the simulator from it. Thanks! I'm going to take a bit to interpret the numbers and play around with the simulator to decide which one I want. I'll update on my choice of kit soon.

Inspired by teklektik's post, I decided to do a more in-depth simulator based analysis of the MAC 10T vs the eZee V2 motor. Here are my results so others can refer to it. It appears that the eZee V2 250rpm motor beats the MAC 10T hands down in all metrics. All measurements were done using the http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html simulator for the following config: 48V, 700c, 100kg Mountain Bike.

Of course, a few caveats first:
- Since the simulator does not have MAC10T, I used the average of BMC_V2 Speed (equiv to MAC 8T) and BMC_V2 Trq (equiv to MAC 12T). This might skew the results to a certain extent since the actual MAC 10T values are not used and only the intrapolated values are used. Nevertheless, it should be a good ballpark.
- As teklektik mentioned, while the BMC might be similar to MAC in terms of power and speed, but not necessarily in matters of heat dissipation. So the numbers might be a little off on this.



Few observations:
- eZee at 35A provides better starting torque than MAC10T at 35A

- They have comparable top speeds on flat ground (though eZee is slightly more efficient, hence, dissipates less heat)
- On flat ground, eZee uses less power than MAC10T (32.9 Wh/mi vs. 37.6 Wh/mi)

- At 10% Grade, eZee at 35A is faster than MAC10T (at 35A). However, with the stock 25A controller, eZee is slower.
- The efficiency of eZee is consistently above MAC at all slope grades
- MAC10T will overheat climbing a 10% hill in 12.5 mins. The eZee will theoretically (per the simulator) never overheat

- At 15% Grade, again, eZee at 35A is better than MAC10T in all respects: Higher top speed, more efficient, less heat dissipation, less power consumption, higher time to overheat (13 mins vs. 5.5 mins)
- On a 15% hill, the MAC10T will overheat in 1.25 miles, while the eZee will go for 3.32 miles.

I'm not sure if the motor diamensions are the same, but my Original Ezee(V1?)was very easy to install.
Using an 8-speed DNP freewheel, no streching of the chainstay was needed. I believe 9-speed will drop right in a 135 m\m drop-out width as well.
Also, the drop-outs did not need any filing at all, where the mini-motors I usually use require filing. Why a mini-motor with a 12 m\m axle requires filing the drop-outs, while the Ezee with a 14 m\m axle did not, I'm not sure. I think it is because the axle flats are perfectly aligned(parallel), The axle did not sit in the drop-outs as deeply as I would have perfered, but rather than deepen them, I installed torque arms on both sides. This is a great feature if one ever wants to go back to the standard bicycle wheel. Also, the rim was perfectly centered and no dishing was needed. The only mod I had to make was to move the brake disc out with spacers.

Great comparison! Thanks, as I've had the very question. But .... the MAC has been upgraded, to stay competitive. I'm not sure the simulator has a data set that has been adequately updated to account for it. I'd ask. I'd also give cell_man opportunity to respond to the claims. Just to be thorough and respectful of the two vendors.

Me, I'd buy on the basis of some other criteria, like how good are the two vendors in supporting their respective products. I mean, if it breaks, what then? Need replacement parts, huh? Uhohh, but maybe I can fix that myself with a little guidance from the vendor - will they? How long is that gonna take? Warranty terms. Testimonials. Price. Did I mention price? Oh, and price per torque nm on 15% incline.

Ebike CA is considered to provide to best service, bar none. And they are close by. I ordered a controller from them yesterday and it shipped today. I will receive it Wen.s or Thur.s of next week. Hard to beat that.
Paul is the best vendor in China, bar none.
Both motors are capable. At this point, the type and size of the battery should be your main concern and determine who to purchase from

arkmundi said:

But .... the MAC has been upgraded, to stay competitive. I'm not sure the simulator has a data set that has been adequately updated to account for it.

Click to expand...

The MAC upgrades are certainly important, although we are already looking at data from a BMC - different but very similar motor (some interchangeable parts). There have been four noteworthy improvements to the MAC in recent times:

1. Stronger gears. This was done to the BMC and the eZee as well (see post here). The eZee is not a hotrodder favorite but was engineered for longevity and low maintenance, so at least at the rated power, this is not a differentiating factor.
2. Stronger clutch. This followed the BMC redesign and is very robust and valuable for over-volted systems where the clutch appears as the weak link. The eZee continues to use the older design shared with earlier MAC and BMC (which were hotrodded even with the old clutch) -- the older design is more than adequate at rated power levels. (I've wondered if these are interchangeable with MAC/BMC...)
   
   • 
3. Doubled phase wires. Again, as with the BMC. Useful for more extreme power levels, but really not a factor here.
4. Thinner laminations. I'm unsure how this upgrade plays with the BMC lams for the tested motor in the simulator - it may well have older thicker lams. However, looking at the MAC 10T dyno data for the standard (no longer carried by EM3EV) and upgraded motors shows an improvement on 10% inclines of around 1.0 mph and only a small change in efficiency (<1%). It does allow the motor to pull more current, however, which is how the extra speed arises. The slight improvement in efficiency and slightly higher current draw leave the waste heat a bit higher but effectively unchanged. On 0% grade, the speed improvement is <0.5mph and the waste heat change is negligible. These small changes generally lead me to use the simulator values without mentioning the MAC upgrades - the impact is real but not startling for these specs (there is also more torque, which gives better pickup).

My largest concern lies with the clutch if running substantially over the rated current (25A) which is why I advised to jump into V3 throttle ramping. Once the clutch is abused (only takes once) it can be permanently damaged making it forever prone to seizing or chatter. Since 25A gives a rock-solid solution, I'm thinking a conservative jump to 30A will not press the envelope and 35A should work fine (perhaps even without a V3 mushing the getaways with throttle ramping - it's only 48v).

Justin is meticulous in his dyno tests for the simulator and I have no doubt that the data is accurate. That said, I was pretty taken aback when the eZee V2 data was originally added to the simulator - the times to overheat are noteworthy. Beyond the specsmanship of efficiencies and laminations - this is the thing that counts. eZee really appears to have put considerable effort in improving the motor in the context of a low voltage 36v-48v kit - more range, better pickup, and better hill-climbing - a pleasing kit with no come-backs because of issues.

Thanks guys. I've got a V2 (pre 2013) Ezee (speed wind) in my 20" front wheel. Its nice to know what I've got - for some reason I had always assumed that Mac and BMC motors were vastly more powerful -I look at my EZEE differently now.

Thanks for all the replies. FWIW, the eZee kit ends up being about $400 (incl shipping to USA) more expensive than the MAC kit. That might be considered the price of the slightly improved performance.

Also, I'd like to state that my goal is not to steal the thunder from either vendor. I have read stellar reviews about both Justin (ebikes.ca) and Paul (EM3EV) - in terms of build quality, customer service, help in troubleshooting, etc. They both have a loyal customer crowd and you cannot go wrong with either. I guess, in the end, it comes down to
(i) Convenience - As arkmundi states, what if something goes wrong? If you live in the US, shipping a replacement from Canada is faster than shipping from China. For smaller parts, it might be cheaper too.
(ii) Price - Are you willing to spend the extra $$ for the slight improvement in performance? For steep hills, eZee exhibits superior performance in terms of heat dissipation, but the numbers for similar for flat/almost flat lands.

It'd also be great to hear cell_man's inputs on the numbers from the simulator. There are a few assumptions being made in this comparison, and it'd be nice to hear an expert opinion on its trustworthiness, or lack of thereof.

I am, personally, going to go with the eZee motor because it appears to be able to climb more than 2 miles of 13-15% grade hills without overheating, while the MAC doesn't.