PAS and the KT-LCD display

Hi,
Hoping someone may be able to Help. ~ Thanks Amberwolf for helping re the placement.
Am building up a bike, have a 36V 750W front mount brushless NON geared wheel, a KT-LCD display linked to a KT36ZWSL-LCD controller with PAS sensor connected.
Firstly, I do not know what brand or model number the motor is, but it has 51 rotor coils and 46 magnets and as I said is a direct drive unit, Black in colour with three alloy or silver radial bands on each side of the motor housing.
Everything initially seemed to work OK with the exception of the PAS. The motor drives irrespective of wether I am pedaling or not. My understanding of PAS is as follows. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

PAS as I understand it.
True PAS as specified by the current Australian legislation is that the motor will not start until you start to pedal. In true PAS mode the throttle is not used, but the motor helps out up to 25Km/Hr where it cuts out. Apparently you can select on the KT-LCD a PAS assist level, 1 through to 5 which will determine how much help you get from the motor.

In Non PAS mode, the throttle determines how fast the motor runs. You can pedal if you wish, but don't have to.

The current Australian legislation also states that bikes can only be legally ridden on public roads is they have a maximum power of 200W (non PAS), or if set to true PAS they can be 250W.

Question 1.
Is it possible to go into the advanced settings of the KT-LCD and change from pure PAS to Non PAS mode as required?

Question 2.
What do I have to do to set up true PAS mode on the KT-LCD?

I have gone into the advanced settings of the KT-LCD and changed P3 to 1, but still no luck in disabling the throttle and setting up the true PAS mode.

While I was there I noticed that P1 is set to 46, P2 to 0, P3 was initially set to 0, P4 is 0, and P5 is 12.

From what I have read, PI = alinico rotar number * reduction ratio and its default is 86. Question, what is the reduction number? assuming a direct drive motor am I correct in assuming that it is equal to 1 and as I have 46 magnets P1 is correctly set at 46.
P2 (currently set to 0) seems to be a motor speed sensor factor. The number of pulses per revolution. I have not changed this and it is currently set to 0.
Have tried P3=0 and P3=1 to no avail.
P4 (throttle startup mode) is currently set to 0.

My PAS sensor, (on the pedal hub) has 8 magnets and the 3 wire sensor.

Other settings are 25KM/H, 26" wheel, KM/H speed etc.

Thanks to anyone in advance

Thanks once again Amberwolf, hopefully someone may be able to assist.

I split your posts out of someone else's build thread so you can better get the help you need. If you want to retitle your thread just edit your first post and change the subject line.

P4 is the throttle start up mode. 0 = normal throttle. 1 = you have to pedal before you can use the throttle, which is the way it should be to comply with EN15194.

PAS should work all the time regardless of throttle setting.

Some of the KT controllers can be switched to current control rather than speed control. You might find current control more comfortable if you want to use the lower levels. Parameter P3: 0 = speed control; 1 = current control.

There maybe also advanced parameters C, where C4 also affects the throttle, so you can get 6 km/h without prdalling, which is also allowed in EN15194. C4 should be set to 1 for that.

Kiriakos GR said:

I would like to see that text even in a picture of the original document.

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£168-00 from the BSI

Kiriakos GR said:

d8veh said:

1 = you have to pedal before you can use the throttle, which is the way it should be to comply with EN15194.

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I would like to see that text even in a picture of the original document.

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4.2.4.1 Requirements
When tested by the method described in 4.2.4.2 the recordings shall show that:
a) assistance shall be provided only when the cyclist pedals forward. This requirement has to be checked
according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2.2 a);


4.2.4.3.1 Requirements
EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as
specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented.
This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without
pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.

Kiriakos GR said:

This 4.2.4.2.2 a which would enlighten the mystery is part of another document, and therefore no conclusion can be made.
For now I will consider the first statement just as an assumption.

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4.2.4.2.2 Test procedure
a) Check that there is no electric motor assistance when pedalling backwards. The test to ensure the
compliance to this clause shall be adapted to the technology used. For example, pedal backwards and
check the no load current point or that no torque is delivered on the driving wheel.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about other documents. Which statement is an assumption?

The text in my post above is copied and pasted directly from EN15194. There's no assumptions. 4.2.4.1 can't state it any more clearly. Power has to cut within 5 meters after stop pedalling. Therefore you can't use a throttle without pedalling except one that gives a speed no more than 6 km/h.

Greece is different and irrelevant. My statements were only concerning EN15194. OP said that he's Australian, Australia is adopting EN15194 for regulation. In those (Australian) states that have not yet adopted it, the limit is still 200w.Unfortunately his 750w motor is not allowed regardless of what he does with it, but like the UK, as long as he sticks a 250w label on it, limits it to 25km/h and it only goes when he pedals (except to 6km/h), I shouldn't think he'll get any hassle. It's very difficult to get a kit bike to comply with all the requirements of EN15194.

Really appreciate all the input.

Unfortunately I have been offline and away for the last couple of days and I will get around to trying all the suggestions. Yes, I am aware of the 250W limit, but if I go offroad and can easily disable PAS the 750W will come in handy.
Just a question re part of the regulations that state that PAS can only be enabled if you are pedaling forward. My understanding is that the normal PAS sensor basically consists of a sensor (hall effect or reed?) and magnets that rotate past the sensor as you pedal. Sure, there is a right and wrong way to put the plate with the magnets on the crank shaft, but this appears to be the way the plastic prongs grip the shaft. Unless I am missing something in my understanding, how can this basic configuration determine what direction you are pedaling (forward or backward?).

I found another post that went into a fair amount of detail on the P and C settings for the KT-LCD3 display http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62469&p=940789&hilit=lcd3#p940789 and what has been said tallies with the comments from d8veh ~ Thanks.

Will try out several settings as soon as I get a chance and post my findings.
Thanks once again for all that replied. Only just discovered this forum and and suitably impressed.

Am about to play with the advanced settings on my KT-LCD (5 power levels) display, in particular with regard to PAS settings. Will post my findings when I have finished.

Kiriakos GR said:

Nanango said:

but if I go offroad and can easily disable PAS the 750W will come in handy.

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If you do that you will damage the battery prematurely.
At 350W up to 750W the battery must be at 20Ampere Hours so to be able to supply the needed Ampere with out been stressed.
In such a scenario the bicycle will become much heavier, and other mechanical problems will arise due the extra weight.
.

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No Kiriakos not sure what your are thinking of here, at 36V the battery must be capable of delivering 20 Amps continuously to get 750W. With a 5C battery it could be as small as a 4Ah battery and weigh a kilogram. The battery would only need to be 20Ah if it was only rated for 1C continuous discharge, even a Ping battery is around 2C.

No need to disable the PAS to go off-road. You get full power even when restricted to 25km/h. It's only the speed that's restricted. If you want to release the speed limit for full speed off-road, it takes about 20 seconds to do in the LCD settings. At all times, regardless of PAS settings, the throttle over-rides the PAS operation, i.e. throttle on demand, except level 0, which disables PAS and throttle for unpowered riding.

Releasing the speed limit doesn't make any extra demand on your battery. All the high current happens at low speed, once you get past 25km/h, there is no way the current can increase. It only goes down.

Kiriakos GR said:

d8veh said:

Releasing the speed limit doesn't make any extra demand on your battery. All the high current happens at low speed, once you get past 25km/h, there is no way the current can increase. It only goes down.

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You need to update your theories by the use of true electrical instruments which will shown to you the bare truth.
Especially off-road use, will force the motor to run at full power almost continually.
At flat road the motor will heat up faster, and thermal losses among with wind resistance will cause enormous battery usage which at the end of the day it can be described as wasted energy.
In 2014 the industry gives a huge fight to discover and implement smart ways of electric energy usage.
And they do that by experiments and by reliable electrical measurements, and not by speculations.

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These are all the bikes I built. Many of them have watt-meters fitted. Those that you can't see have Speedicts in that show and log the battery data in realtime on an Android device.

http://s451.photobucket.com/user/d8veh/library/Bikes%20I%20Built?sort=3&page=1

I have a lot of experience with ebikes. I've even posted several times in this forum how to measure current using adhoc methods and how to modify at least three different types of RC wattmeters for Ebike use. You don't have to tell me how to measure current.

Go and have a look at the ebike simulator to see how current varies with speed. I don't need to change my theories, but I think you will when you see the simulator.

I'm sure all the anonymous experts will take your message very seriously - whatever it is. Just in case I didn't get it right. Is it that if you're an electrician, you can change the laws of physics in the way a motor behaves?

Did you checkout the simulator to find which motors don't go down in current in the upper third of their speed range?

Did you look at the simulator? You didn't answer that question. I think it would help you a lot to understand what happens with electric hub-motors. You can click on any speed and it'll show you the current. You can play about with different parameters to see their effect. Here it is if you couldn't find it:

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Kiriakos GR said:

I do not have faith to any software simulator.
Who made it?
Is he an electrician engineer ?
Does he have a name?
The motor under test was it inspected if it windings was properly made?
Every motor has an identification tag, every motor is different.
One motor is identical to another one only if I inspect both and measure all their electrical parameters.

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The guy that owns and runs this forum made it with help from some of the the other experts on here. His name is Justin and he's very well respected by the experts on this forum, so be careful what you say. He also makes and sells the Cycle Analyst, so I think he knows something about current measurement too. His simulations are based on data from actual motor tests. I guess you haven't looked at it yet, otherwise you wouldn't be making such daft comments.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=678