BBS01 commute ebike v1

Lurkin

100 kW
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
1,473
Location
Melbourne, VIC, AUS
1st build, using a mountain bike and adding assist for a commute bike. Not an engineer etc, but have assistance from those who are.

Bike: Trek X-Caliber (29er)

Parameters:-
350-500w hub motor capable of being electronically restricted to 250w (to get a decent amount of torque)
Capable of moving 115kg bloke on two 40km stints per day. Distance capacity is more important than speed > 25km per hour.
Must be capable of (the assist) being speed restricted to 25km/h
Preferably use a torque sensor if possible?
Was originally looking at a BionX kit for simplicity, however the $3k price tag rendered it out of the budget. I probably looking to spend in the order of $1500 AUD.
Havent completely written off the idea of just buying an entire bike, but then I wouldn't learn anything and would be in the same position when it requires replacement.

Really looking for a bit of advice as to what kit to go for and what parts are required to make it practical. I have been looking into the BMS battery kits but really unsure of whats required to make the restrictions work reliably.

the kit I had in mind is https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/402-bafang-bpm2-48v350w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

unsure of which battery is best to go with. Probably was going to get a bottle style battery to fit on the downtube.
I'm also not sure if direct drive is the go or the planetary gear route. I understand regen is only possible with direct drive, but unsure as to whether this is really worth pursuing (given the distance I need to travel)....

I'm assuming this torque sensor would only be useful for a crank style set up ?

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/689-b-b-torque-sensor-system-ebike-kit.html?search_query=torque+sensor&results=73

any advice would be great to get started.

Standardised info:

City: Melbourne
State: Victoria
Country: Australia

Desired max speed on level ground: 25 km/h assisted , higher unassisted
Desired max range at what cruising speed: 40km each way (commute to work), 80km per day in total. Can recharge in between, in a perfect world I wont need to.
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert: 29er
Brake type of motor wheel: Disc
Rider weight: 115kg
Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade
Budget: AUD$2,500 was the original budget, but looking to be less than this.
 
According to the requirements you've stated, a good kit will be:
A 201 rpm 48v 500w BPM rear motor. A 36v one would also be OK.
The S12S controller. You have to order a wheel speed sensor and LCD to go with it.
The downtube battery with Panasonic cells. 11.5ah at 48v or 14.5ah 36v.
A pair of torque arms (only one needed)
PAS and throttle. Don't bother with a torque sensor. The PAS works fine.
A pair of hidden wire brake sensors if you have cable brakes.

Order a spoke key as well because you always have to tighten/adjust the spokes.

The battery might be a bit small for 40km. It depends on how hard youbwant to pedal and whether you have many hills. If you want to be sure, you have to get a bigger one and mount it on a rack, but the handling won't be as good. The 48v downtube battery has 500wh, which works out at 20wh per mile for 25 miles (40km), which should be enough if you stick to 25km/h.

If you want a ready-made bike, look at Ezee bikes. They have a bigger motor than many and lots of options on battery size.
 
Hi D8veh,

250w/48v = 5.2a. 11.6ah/5.2a = 2.23h @ 250W. Given each trip is 40km 40/25km/h = 1.6h - this should be sufficient (just an estimate, unlikely to have assist on full all the time).

I'll have to ask to see if they can do this kit in 700c (29er): https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/348-bafang-bpm2-48v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

Kit comes with A PAS---Padel Pulse Assist Sensor and A 500W 12Mosfets universal controller. I'll enquire to see if this is definitely the s12s.
Will also include a throttle of my choice.

Already have a spoke key/tool etc.

Kit: $169.91 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/348-bafang-bpm2-48v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html
Torque arm:$15.00 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html?search_query=torque+arm&results=1
Battery & Charger: $308 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/684-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-charger-battery.html
Total price: $492.91

significantly cheaper than the $2999 quoted for a Bionx kit!!

Would it be possible to add a S-LCD3 to the S12S?
Can a s12s controller be limited to 250w/25km/h?
 
Lurkin said:
Total Newb, wanting to turn a mountain bike into an ebike.

Not an engineer etc, but have assistance from those who are.

Bike: Trek X-Caliber (29er)

Parameters:-
350-500w hub motor capable of being electronically restricted to 250w (to get a decent amount of torque)
Welcome! Check out my Top 10 eBike Conversion Kits & Where to Buy thread compiled for Newb's like you (and me, since we're all at that juncture when starting out). Love Trek bikes and am happy with my ride! A lot of the kits available have 3-speed switches which allow you to do that, as does my MAC 10T. Still have a throttle, but the switch makes it possible to amp-back or go full-amp.
Capable of moving 115kg bloke on two 40km stints per day. Distance capacity is more important than speed > 25km per hour.
Must be capable of (the assist) being speed restricted to 25km/h
Preferably use a torque sensor if possible?
Nay - I wouldn't. What you looking for there is what's called a pedalec - where there's a sensor in the crank that assist your pedalling. If you really want one of those, recommend you try one first to see if you really like it.
Was originally looking at a BionX kit for simplicity, however the $3k price tag rendered it out of the budget. I probably looking to spend in the order of $1500 AUD.
I wouldn't go that route - check the Top 10 list and pick one of those. Very easy to come in on the budget.
Havent completely written off the idea of just buying an entire bike, but then I wouldn't learn anything and would be in the same position when it requires replacement.

Really looking for a bit of advice as to what kit to go for and what parts are required to make it practical. I have been looking into the BMS battery kits but really unsure of whats required to make the restrictions work reliably.

the kit I had in mind is https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/402-bafang-bpm2-48v350w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html
The ES forum is a great place to do a reality check before you buy. You'll find mixed results on bmsbattery, which is why they're not on my Top 10 list. You can do better than that. Yea, do the research before buying.
unsure of which battery is best to go with. Probably was going to get a bottle style battery to fit on the downtube.
I'm also not sure if direct drive is the go or the planetary gear route. I understand regen is only possible with direct drive, but unsure as to whether this is really worth pursuing (given the distance I need to travel)....
Yea, the kicker is the battery. I'd select a motor & vendor, then get one of the better batteries from your selected vendor. There's a whole lot of variety in battery chemistry, voltage and amp-hours (capacity, which gets you range). A good 10ah LiFePO4 battery matched to the requirements of your motor is good starting place for your consideration.
I'm assuming this torque sensor would only be useful for a crank style set up ?

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/689-b-b-torque-sensor-system-ebike-kit.html?search_query=torque+sensor&results=73

any advice would be great to get started.
Its up to you to decide what's right for you, but again, while an available option, you may or may not like it. Best of luck! :mrgreen:
 
Lurkin said:
Hi D8veh,

250w/48v = 5.2a. 11.6ah/5.2a = 2.23h @ 250W. Given each trip is 40km 40/25km/h = 1.6h - this should be sufficient (just an estimate, unlikely to have assist on full all the time).

I'll have to ask to see if they can do this kit in 700c (29er): https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/348-bafang-bpm2-48v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

Kit comes with A PAS---Padel Pulse Assist Sensor and A 500W 12Mosfets universal controller. I'll enquire to see if this is definitely the s12s.
Will also include a throttle of my choice.

Already have a spoke key/tool etc.

Kit: $169.91 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/348-bafang-bpm2-48v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html
Torque arm:$15.00 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html?search_query=torque+arm&results=1
Battery & Charger: $308 https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/684-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-charger-battery.html
Total price: $492.91

significantly cheaper than the $2999 quoted for a Bionx kit!!

Would it be possible to add a S-LCD3 to the S12S?
Can a s12s controller be limited to 250w/25km/h?

The controller that comes with that kit is the KU123. It's adequate, but nowhere as good as the S12S, especially if you want to use the pedal sensor. You would be better off buying the motor wheel rather than the kit, then order the S12S and other stuff to go with it. Only buy the kit if you're on a very tight budget.

The spoke key you already have probably won't fit the spokes unless it has 13g written on it.

The S12S can limit your speed to anything you want by a simple setting in the LCD. The S-LCD3 is the best LCD to go with the S12S. I don't think you can use it with the KU123. The speed limit on the KU123 is set by joining two wires. I'm not sure what speed it'll be, but probably a bit over 15 mph with a 700c wheel.
 
Sweet that's exactly the kind of functionality I'm looking for.

How do I limit the 500w to 250w? I understand this would be by limiting the current, is this something that can be achieved via the LCD-3?

I'll have a looksee at the spoke key later tonight.
 
If you want to try and make a 500w motor legal by restricting it to 250w, you can't. The requirement is on the rating of the motor, not how you use it. 500w motors are simply not allowed. The only thing you can do is to stick a professional looking 250 w label over the markings on the motor.

If you just want to restrict the poer of the motor, that's easy because the controller uses current control, so each level on the LCD is a different power without affecting speed, e.g. level 1 = 100w, level 2 = 200w, etc.
 
I've had a read of the road rules here in Victoria and the requirements are:-

A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor. Power assisted bicycles have two definitions in Victoria:

A pedal cycle with one or more auxiliary propulsion motors attached which has a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.
A bicycle certified as a Pedalec (compliant with European Committee for Standardization EN 15194:2009 or EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 Cycles - Electrically power assisted cycles - EPAC Bicycles). This bicycle features an auxiliary power producing no more than 250 watts and specifies this as a continuous rating. It also restricts the top power assisted speed to 25 kilometres per hour and requires the rider to pedal to access the power.
A motorised bicycle is not classed as a bicycle if:

the motor is the primary source of power
the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).
These are considered to be motorcycles. The rider will be required to hold a motorcycle licence and have the vehicle registered before it can be used on the road network. Motorcycles cannot be ridden on footpaths or bicycle paths. Motorcycle riders must wear an approved motorcycle helmet.

Source: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/cyclist-safety/power-assisted-bicycles

So I guess the throttles pretty much out.

But I'm reading that as long as it cannot exceed 25km/h and cannot produce > 250w continuously, its compliant. Not sure how one would come about becoming compliant with the European Committee for Standardizations rules.

So I thought if both the speed and power is limited it's compliant...
 
Where are you located?

I would suggest you ignore the 250w restrictions as it's just not enough power to make it "fun" and your first ebike experience will be sub-par. Aim for 2kw+ so that you can arrive at your destination in a reasonable amount of time... and design it so the bike generally still looks like a bike. Police wont pull you over if you're not riding like a dick doing 80km/h in the bike lane (I havent had issues cruising at 50km/h and still peddling).

If you're in Melbourne bayside, I can give you a test ride of a MAC10T so you know what you could get for a $800 kit (not including batteries which is another $400 inc BMS and charger) then test drive it against a 250w unit.
 
Yeah, I'm in Melbourne.

I realise it's pretty easy to go undetected/ it would be way more fun with more power. Frankly, I'm pretty jelly of the idea. I'll probably look into something more powerful for a non-commute bike going forward.

However, for this bike I'm really not in a position to get caught out - could really be an issue if I'm involved in an accident... Given I'm recovering from an accident and is the reason I'm considering ebikes in the first place, it would be bit rich for me to rule it out..
 
Lurkin said:
Yeah, I'm in Melbourne.

I realise it's pretty easy to go undetected/ it would be way more fun with more power. Frankly, I'm pretty jelly of the idea. I'll probably look into something more powerful for a non-commute bike going forward.

However, for this bike I'm really not in a position to get caught out - could really be an issue if I'm involved in an accident... Given I'm recovering from an accident and is the reason I'm considering ebikes in the first place, it would be bit rich for me to rule it out..

Suggest you just purchase one of em3ev's kits - either his 350 watt Bafang BB drive kit with a 16ah battery or a Mac 10T kit with a similar large 36V battery and a fully sorted PAS sensor. You want moderate but useful power with distance and pedalling capability. Tell Paul exactly what outcome you want and he'll sort it out for you. I have come to trust his advice implicitly!

Sam (in Adelaide)

ps; BTW, 350 watts is only a bit more than 250 and - IMHO - is just about ideal. 250 watts is fine but can be a bit boring if you are facing an hour or two of headwind or if you're pedalling an enormous cargo bike!
 
I thought that Australia had adopted EN15194 as its EPAC standard, which replaces the old 200w standard. Whatever one applies, both standards refer to the "rating" of the motor or continuous "rated" power. Neither specifies a maximum allowed power. You can use any motor catalogued or labelled by the manufacturer at either 200w or 250w, depending which standard applies. You can then put whatever power you want through it, which doesn't change its rating. 250w can be fun if you apply the wording of the standard correctly.Thankfully, there's some motors that are rated at 250w that can give a lot of power output. The old Heinzmann was rated at 200w, but came with a 36v 28A controller. That's about 1000w maximum. There's "250w" Bafang BPMs and CSTs, which both can manage 22A, and Ezee motors that you can stretch to 25A.
 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
 
I had read that post already, hence 90% of required information was in here. Given it was my first post, I was unsure as to whether there would be sufficient responses to justify setting up my profile/ putting in all info. updating profile now.
 
Hi D8veh,

As previously posted above
A bicycle certified as a Pedalec (compliant with European Committee for Standardization EN 15194:2009 or EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 Cycles - Electrically power assisted cycles - EPAC Bicycles).

So yes, that standard has definitely been adopted in Victoria.

I'll have to read up on the detail of the standard later today. Just seems so ridiculous that its based on the manufacturer's description of the motor rather than it's actual ability.

Puts me back to the drawing board - 250w motor it will have to be.

Do the crank driven Bafang units put out more torque (per unit of current) than the equivalent voltage hub motor?

I didn't really want to have something pushed beyond its factory specification (i.e. overvoltage/current) if it was possible to avoid it.
 
Lurkin said:
I've had a read of the road rules here in Victoria and the requirements are:....
Yes, I'm a champion of civil-disobedience on this issue in my home state. See for instance MUST READ - eBikes are LEGAL in the USA - Since HR727 8-2001. Knowing or not and complying or not are two different things.

There are penalties either way. The penalty for complying is an almost complete loss of the eBike as useful transportation cable of doing real work. That work, myself and many here on the ES-forum, is the work of getting up hills, travelling longer distances, and carrying stuff. I'm car-free, so all that is important to me. 250 watts just does not cut it.

Then there is the penalty the local police & justice system may impose on you, for not following the rules. It could be zero, as the above thread suggests. As for now at least, most of us are getting a free pass, an allowance & tolerance of our use of eBikes on the the road. If its not zero, then you may want to find out. Perhaps its just a small fine.

Again, you've got a range of choice and its ultimately your choice to make. Best!
 
- I'm in Australia.
- There is also the effect on Visas... Any jail time in Australia can result in challenging 'good character' and result in deportation.

In any case, I just don't want the fuss/attention. Just want to go about my business per usual, just on a different, legal, mode of transport.
 
Bafang 36V 250/350W BBS01 Kit with Battery 
  - Motor Power 36V 250W 
  - Chain Wheel 44T 
  - Battery 36V, 16.5Ah Frame Pack & 2.5A Charger 
  - AC Plug Type AustraliaBBS36V250W350WBAT1$919.00$919.00Aluminium Case Charger 42V 2.5A,10S Li Ion/NCM 
  - AC Plug Type Australia10SLI2A5CHARGE1$28.00$28.00

Sub-Total:$947.00Battery - Fed Zone E (Weight: 13.00kg):$195.40PayPal fee:$42.27Total:$1,184.67

ordered. Lets see how this goes!
 
A little late I guess, but...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/36V-48V-Electric-Bicycle-E-Bike-Cycling-Kit-Front-Rear-Wheel-250-500-800-1000W-/121493562641?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&var=&hash=item1c4994a511
 
Not really.

I checked ebay before proceeding. there were cheaper alternatives.

Most (including your link) don't include a battery.

At this stage, I would rather buy something complete from someone relatively reputable than purchase bits and hope humpty dumpty goes together ok.
 
I'm not sure about the BBS01's, but you might need an adaptor to adjust your chainline for a 29er. I think ballarat ebikes makes them and you can pick one up locally if stuff doesn't fit the first time.
 
hmmm. Not sure about an adapter. Couldn't find anything on Google.

Issues detected:-

- Crank is 73mm on bike, 68mm on BBS01. Answer: Add washers to space out.
- Kit includes average ebike handles. Corresponded with Paul, has agreed to swap the levers for a reed switch sensor. Was keen on two, but appears I was too slow in responding.

Am wondering if it would be better to install it on a beater bike before installing on the mountain bike. Concerned the BBS01 crank may wear the threads in the crank socket on the frame.... Will be looking into a product to fill in the threads (not sure if this is possible given the strength that would be required and that I would need to be able to remove it).

Suggestions welcome...

Fedex reckons I should get it by 6pm tomorrow...
 
Got the kit, charged the battery etc.

Hit a brick wall though.

Crank width - 73mm
width of BBS01 - 68mm + bracket, lockring, outerlockring.. cannot fit outer lockring.

Further, there was play between the BBS01 and the inside of the crank area of the frame. AND using washers.. didnt really work. Couldn't find 20mm M6 bolts at bunnings or masters. Bought 25mm and tried spacing both sides with a combination of washers and the nuts from valves (also M6).

when tightening to the point to stop front to back movement in the motor, bracket's ribbing began to pinch the frame/destroy paint etc.

Grr. Decided enough square peg, round hole.

Going to buy a new frame and/or bike with a 68mm width crank hole. Then start all over.

So... any suggestion on a mountain bike producer making frames with 68mm crank widths?
 
My Focus black Forrest 29er is 68mm bb. 9speed rear and hydro brakes. 180 front and 160 rear with lockout fork. $600 from prahran?

http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/a/29er-mountain-bikes/focus/vic/prahran/2014-focus-black-forest-29er-7-0/102373302

Its a pretty solid bike. I've been doored at about 20kmh, hit a few trees and threw it against a wall. Only gripe is the stock seat stem moves sometimes and the seat mount creaks. Nothing major though
 
If the seat mount creaks it may need to be tighter. That's a really nice option if I was starting from scratch, it would be very ideal.

Considered at length. This Trek bike is an ideal spec. Replacing it would be $1,000 ish.. Would rather put $1,000 towards a sweet full suspension no assist.

So... went and talked to the chaps at myspokes.. discussed options and decided to just give it ar*eholes.

Also attempted to solve the 0.5ish of play between empty crank socket and BBS01 spindle with various inner tube stretched over spindle combinations.

700c would be the best but kept snapping/ripping at that amount of stretch. Gave up and just put it together in the end.

Reed switch without magnet caused a little confusion when getting it started.. but was sorted pretty quickly.

It lives!!

I think it's pretty interesting Bafang have choosen a four notched lockring. Why?? Why not choose something more conventional? Would be really nice to be able to use a lockring that suits something that can be fitted to a torque wrench (like the very outer lockring which I cannot use)

If all goes well, might follow the suit of others and mill the frame to suit. Have flipped the chainring in the meantime to get a better chainline as it could only be in the highest (smallest) gear whilst around the 'correct' way.
 
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