How to get the proper advice, read before asking

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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wesnewell
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How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by wesnewell » Jan 21, 2015 12:31 pm

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
This is a worldwide forum, so please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location will appear in every post so you won't have people asking where you are ever again. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum, and country is the most important. There are many cities with the same name all over the world. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

To get solid advice on parts to buy, you must provide the following info.
Desired max speed on level ground. mph or kph
Desired max range at what cruising speed. mph or kph
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert. Most common kits are for 26" wheels.
Brake type of motor wheel. Disc or not.
Rider weight.
Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade, I want to climb mountains, etc., etc.
Budget.

With the above info, experienced people can make solid recommendations. Without it, well GIGO.

What Bike should I get to convert to an ebike?

A steel frame bike will work best. And these are usually the cheaper ones. Steel dropouts to be specific. They make aluminum frame FS bikes with steel swing arms and these will work just as good as an all steel framed bike. In fact that's what I've been riding the last 3 years and ~12K miles. What you are concerned with is the bike frame, and not so much the components that can easily be replaced. I prefer V brakes, but if you prefer disc, then might have a harder time finding an appropriate bike. And V brakes work a lot better than those little 160mm disc brakes. For a comfortable ride, you may end up replacing the handlebars, seat, and even the stem to get a proper fit. You'll almost certainly want to replace the tires, and possibly even the wheels. If you decide on a bike with aluminum dropouts, you will need 2 torque arms/plates for it. 26" is the most common kit size, so 26" bike has many kits tires , etc. available for it. Other sizes are beginning to become more available, but you won't have a problem finding a kit for a 26" bike.
Recommended bikes.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Huffy-Men- ... e/49058108
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=80172

Upgrades. If you can't ride a bike because of discomfort, it's worthless to you. Almost all will need to replace the saddle and handlebars.
https://www.zoro.com/worksman-bicycle-s ... /G1116762/
http://www.ebay.com/p/Wald-8038GB-City- ... 1800042090

What motor kit should I get?

For 90% are more people I'd recommend a 48V 1000W rear direct drive kit. Used stock, it should last almost forever. Provide more than enough power and speed for most people. And they are usually the best bang for the buck. And with a controller and battery upgrade, you can get a lot more power and speed out of the motor. I've been running mine on 88.8V 40A for over 3 years now without a problem. Ran on 66.6V before that. Stock top speed with a 48V pack will be 30 mph. Where to buy your kit is up to you, but I find buying from a volume seller within the country you live to be the cheapest option because they buy in bulk and usually offer free shipping within your country or area. In the US, I'd start here.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... nc&LH_FS=1
In UK
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... 5573.m1684
In AU
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from ... 5573.m1684

What battery pack should I get?

There will be lots of different opinions on this. Personally I prefer rc lipo because its small, light, very powerful, very configurable, and a lot less expensive than other types because of it volume rc use.. But I'd recommend any lithium and no lead. There's just one consideration you need to take into account. The battery pack must be capable of providing the amperage required by the controller. IOW's if you have a max 30A controller, your battery pack should be capable of a 30A continuous output. Motor size doesn't matter. Only the controller, as it's what draws power from the battery pack, not the motor. Most rc lipo is at least 10C, so it won't be a concern, but if you decide to touse 18650 packs, this could be a major problem. For rc lipo, HK is a good source.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... harge.html
For other types, ask or search. There's lots of options.

How much battry do I need?

Watt Hours (wh) required per mile on flat terrain with no wind. MTB
20mph=21wh
30mph=40wh
40mph=66wh
50mph=103wh
You can cut that in half or more with a recumbent bike/trike. You do the math as to what you need for your mileage.
Last edited by wesnewell on Nov 20, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How to get the proper advice

Post by mlt34 » Jan 21, 2015 3:31 pm

Well said.

I would also add that a good thing to include is your budget. You don't have to be exact ($1,437.48) but if you give a range, that helps make recommendations that fit your budget. There are a lot of different ways to build an ebike. Better parts cost more, but good stuff can also be had for cheap. Knowing your range makes it easier to suggest parts (or at least know what not to suggest).
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by erik_m » Jan 24, 2015 2:35 am

(post deleted)
Last edited by erik_m on Feb 01, 2015 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

John in CR
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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by John in CR » Jan 31, 2015 8:30 pm

Based on your volume of incorrect advice I find this thread laughable. Your posts give no consideration to load because you live and ride on terrain that is dead flat, which means almost any rig is reliable even with a big load. In addition you make numerous posts that give the impression that RC lipo batteries are safe and cannot burst into flames when connected to nothing and having never been abused, when the exact opposite is true.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Stevil_Knevil » Jan 31, 2015 9:59 pm

John,

Thanks for dropping by to crap on yet another topic that does not conveniently fit into your box of useful information :roll:

What kind of batteries (chemistry) are you using?
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We don't care. We're riding Ducatis in our dreams.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Stevil_Knevil » Jan 31, 2015 10:22 pm

The top three questions that I typically get-

-How fast?
-How far?
-How much?

Anybody else get the same Qs?
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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by mlt34 » Feb 01, 2015 7:23 am

Stevil_Knevil wrote:The top three questions that I typically get-

-How fast?
-How far?
-How much?

Anybody else get the same Qs?
"What is that thing?"
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by lester12483 » Feb 03, 2015 8:01 pm

I cant imagine how many people come here with battery problems from packs purchased on ebay.

There should be an ebay alert thread. Anyone know is there is one?
MT6 Hybrid- Electric Bicycle 48V
48V 13AH AllCell Lithium Manganese Battery Pack
http://www.chicagoelectricbicycles.com

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by wesnewell » Feb 04, 2015 2:36 am

There's plenty of that in the Battery Technology forum. That is not the purpose of this thread.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by lester12483 » Feb 04, 2015 5:38 am

Yes but the thread title says: "How to get the proper advice, read before asking"

Wouldn't this thread apply to ebike parts too?
MT6 Hybrid- Electric Bicycle 48V
48V 13AH AllCell Lithium Manganese Battery Pack
http://www.chicagoelectricbicycles.com

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Mark42 » Jun 26, 2015 5:22 pm

May I add that if someone is planning to buy an ebike kit, that they make sure the bike they want to convert is fully functional. IE brakes, wheels (straight, spokes tight) brakes work, stem has ball bearings properly greased and adjusted, and shifters work properly. Many of these items can be replaced new for just a few dollars, such as cables and calipers.

With an ebike, the majority of people run the bikes faster than the owner can pedal. 20 to 25 is common. I found that the mountain bike I converted was geared so low that after 15mph I could not keep up with the bikes speed no matter now fast I peddled. It was fruitless. I had to wait until the bike coasted down to about 8 mph before I was able to do "pedal assist" on a manual level.

I do not have pedal assist connected on my bike because the parts that came with the kit are meant to fit small bottom bracket setups. I have an old school fat bottom bracket that took a one piece crank. I used a conversion kit to put on a 3 piece crank. But the pedal assist still would not fit. So its not connected and there are no adverse affects. Thank Goodness /

I am beat. Just came back from a 15 mile round trip ride on my road bike. Have to do it so I don;t rely on the ebike all the time. Damn, I am 56 yrs old..... got to look sexy for whoever... anyone?

I'm going to do 3 shots and a beer now.
My first ebike project: CNEBikes Co, LTD 48V 1000w 26" rear wheel kit. 20Ah Lithium Ion battery in pvc jacket. PVC rigid side bags, headlight, taillights and other pieces to make bike look retro.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by gogo » Dec 04, 2015 8:44 am

wesnewell wrote:I've been running mine on 88.8V 40A for over 3 years now without a problem. Ran on 66.6V before that. Stock top speed with a 48V pack will be 30 mph.
Because you are offering your experience as an example, it would be more complete to list how much you weigh. The rider weight can can vary as much as 3X and that can be the difference that fries a motor on a hill.
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -Steven Wright

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by DaleLatham » Feb 10, 2016 12:56 am

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. The discussion was especially helpful. (I have heard from other posters and sources that EBay in not a good source for purchases of most ebike components).

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by wesnewell » Feb 10, 2016 1:28 am

Pure BS. Research the item and price, including shipping and make up your own mind. BTW, I weighed 270 lbs last time I weighed.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by john*thomas » Jul 30, 2016 11:43 am

This is my first post and I just want to add that this post was pretty helpful as a place to start. I am new to this and I still am not wrapped around all of it but this has helped. It does lead to other questions and I will created a separate post to ask it as soon as I read a good bit more.

Thanks

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Rube » Aug 05, 2016 10:15 pm

Hi Wes, thanks for posting this info is helpful. The only addition I would make is to provide examples of the battery terminology commonly used on the forum and described in the section on battery choice.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Builditgood » Dec 11, 2016 5:47 pm

Thanks to everyone who posted. As a noob still figuring out whether mid is better than hub my biggest concern is whether I will fry a hub. Is there any way of working out how long it will take to overheat a hub with a rider weighing x, going up an incline of y, using a motor with a power rating of z? Thanks again

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by amberwolf » Dec 11, 2016 9:55 pm

If your motor is in the list (read the instructions to show all of them if you don't see yours in the default list) then http://ebikes.ca/simulator can be used, once you learn how it's functions work.

There are a number of good threads in this list:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search
that talk about using the simulator for different things, and some of it's limitations, but it is a lot of reading, if you don't like that then you can skip it and just read the instructions on the simulator page itself.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by Builditgood » Dec 14, 2016 6:01 am

thanks Amberwolf. that is exactly what i was looking for

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by teslanv » Jan 02, 2017 12:36 pm

Thanks for this Post, Wes.

I am always amazed at how ridiculously cheap those Ebay DD Hub kits are. As in importer, myself, I can say that for ~$160 SHIPPED, You just cannot beat this price. As an entry level kit, they are surprisingly good. You won't get high-efficiency laminations, or advanced controller features like a CA plug or regen braking (I don't think), but some of these features can easily be upgraded later with a new controller. Even with these cheapo controllers, a fun project to get more power from them is to do a shunt mod. I would say if you want to experiment (a.k.a. Hot Rod) with your basic kit, a Shunt mod is a relatively easy and fun project, that can double the power output and torque of your motor. Once you blow up the controller, you will have graduated, and can upgrade to a more robust controller. :wink:

I will say that Noob's should be extra cautious if considering RC LiPo for their battery pack. 18650-based packs are getting better and cheaper, now. They are worth a hard look, even on a tight budget.

Here are a couple good options from China:
EM3ev
Unit Pack Power

If you go with LiPo packs from Hobby King, There are what I recommend:

4S-16Ah Multistars - Good $/Watt-hour & reliable 65A Output with Minimal Voltage Sag
6S-16Ah Multistars - Good $/Watt-hour & reliable 65A Output with Minimal Voltage Sag
4S-5Ah Hard Case Packs - Decent $/watt-hour, reliable 25A Output with Minimal Voltage Sag. Physically protected Cells = SAFER!

And if you are a Noob, I know what you are thinking... For heaven's sake, please DO NOT attempt to build your own 18650 Battery pack from recycled laptop cells. just..... DON'T. :roll:
I build custom ebikes.
http://www.westcoastelectrics.com
West Coast Electric Cycles
Bellevue, WA
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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by tomjasz » Jan 02, 2017 1:26 pm

teslanv wrote:Thanks for this Post, Wes.

I am always amazed at how ridiculously cheap those Ebay DD Hub kits are. As in importer, myself, I can say that for ~$160 SHIPPED, You just cannot beat this price. As an entry level kit, they are surprisingly good. You won't get high-efficiency laminations, or advanced controller features like a CA plug or regen braking (I don't think), but some of these features can easily be upgraded later with a new controller.
Amazing! I agree on nearly all counts. I won't ever be convinced near users should go lipo but it's not worth the argument. There are lots of opinions to sort and make up ones own mind. After a few years and a few kits there's enough parts in my spars box to make significant improvements on these cheap kits and never be without a ride regardless of budget.

Just say NO to Walmart bikes. BikesDirect has better choices if you must.

I would comment on the batteries. While UPP has been good for me and are as good a choice as the latest golden boy, EM3ev completely takes the quality lead. I have both. My last EM3ev is by far the best build. After being critical of Paul business model for some time, and after experience with the latest USA reseller, I made my apologies, tail between the legs and will stick with EM3ev for Primary packs. I will still use UPP for soft packs and backup batteries. But using UPP means choosing the right cell and rated BMS.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by wesnewell » Jan 02, 2017 2:35 pm

tomjasz wrote:Just say NO to Walmart bikes. BikesDirect has better choices if you must.
There are no Walmart bikes to buy. They have never manufactured a bicycle and probably never will. They sell the same bikes you can buy at many big box store and specialty bicycle shops. They sell many brands of bikes at decent prices. Many of their cheap bikes actually make more sense to electrify than an expensive bike simply because of the frame and dropouts. Spending more than $100 on a bike to electrify is just a waste of money. Save the money and upgrade the same components you'd need to upgrade an expensive bike, which almost none are suitable to electrify from stock. No matter where you buy it.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by teslanv » Jan 02, 2017 8:53 pm

I think I would have to agree with Tom that the bikes available from bikesdirect.com are a better option for donor bike.

For as little as $400 shipped, you can get a complete bike with better components as compared to the offerings at the big box stores. Most come in multiple sizes, unlike the box store bikes, which are one size, generally. This means fewer dollars in the long run, and not needing to upgrade pretty much everything on the bike.

Some great frames I like:

Gravity 27FIVE FS Single Speed Mountain Bike - $399 Shipped
Gravity FSX 2.0 Full Suspension Mountain Bike - $379 Shipped
Gravity Bullseye Monster 8-Speed Fat Bike - $499 Shipped
Gravity Bullseye Monster Pro same frame as above, except with a Bluto Front Fork - $999 Shipped
I build custom ebikes.
http://www.westcoastelectrics.com
West Coast Electric Cycles
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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by wesnewell » Jan 03, 2017 3:40 am

I would not find any of those bikes suitable to electrify. All aluminum frames and short vertical dropouts. And I'd still have to replace the rims and other stuff to get a proper fit. Probably very good bikes if you want a pedal only bike. Not worth a crap to electrify imo.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Post by teslanv » Jan 03, 2017 12:13 pm

I guess I am of the mindset that ALL frames, steel, Aluminum or otherwise need torque arms for any >1000W hub motor. That opens up numerous possibilities for lightweight Aluminum bike frames, and adds a safety factor.

This was the result from not having a clamping / enclosed torque arm on my Chromo Steel drop-outs of the Farfle Swing arm of my Genesis V2100 Build...

Image

Granted, this resulted from testing a controller with an overly aggressive regen braking setting. (The Motor was ripped out of the steel drop-out as I braked.)

These Clamping drop-outs solved the problem:
Clamping DO.1.jpg
I have since always used some kind of enclosed torque arm on every DD Hub bike I have built, with no subsequent problems.

A pair of these are cheap insurance: http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... rm-v4.html
I build custom ebikes.
http://www.westcoastelectrics.com
West Coast Electric Cycles
Bellevue, WA
USA

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