Another lame “Ebike newbie” posting

Picture a couple of 50-year-old-farts pedaling around our Midwest town on three-speed bikes with big baskets on the front carrying French bread and wine…happy as clams. That’s us. 10 years ago.

We are non-athletic urban recreational / leisure riders now in our 60s, and we enjoy 5 to 20-mile sojourns in the Ohio area (never in more than moderate winds, rarely a significant hill more than a few blocks long.) The most aggressive application might be up and down a few dirt roads around a campground, if possible. I weigh 250, and the wife weighs a foot shorter (?). At this juncture even the moderate hills and winds are getting a bit much, and we are turning to an ebike solution. It would be nice to stay under $500 each, but I am willing to stretch to avoid buyer's remorse.

The conversion kit I’m looking at is about $270 ( http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bike-conversion-kit/26-inch-electric-hub-motor-kit/26-inch-36v-750w-rear-hub-motor-bike-conversion-kit-622.html ). [Auraslip says rear hub drives need a $30 “freewheel”; what is this, do I really need it, etc.?]

The 15 lb. Leaf lithium battery system seems like a reasonable investment at $400 ( http://www.leafbike.com/products/lithium-battery/36v-li-battery/36v-15ah-rack-lithium-ion-battery-959.html ). I just can’t fathom lugging an SLA pack around.

My candidate bike is the $130 Mongoose Ledge 2.1 ( http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoose-Ledge-2.1-Men-s-Mountain-Bike/26999421 ). Café racer handlebars aren’t exactly “comfort” but it’s a start. My understanding is that this is a fairly common low-budget choice and I hope some folks who have actually used it can comment. [Should I use a torque arm with this frame? Good choice / source for such if so?]

This puts me well over budget, but if it is a simple conversion with no gotcha's, and performs adequately [range? hills?] it looks worth it to me. I choose the more arduous rear wheel conversion for better traction in loose turf; and I trust that v-brakes will suffice. If there are other approaches or options I should seriously consider please advise.

This website is a godsend for we casual consumers, congrats!

Chas in Dayton. Ohio

PS: Another attractive option for us old farts is an inexpensive geared cruiser, no suspension but we aren't sport riders; it could be a jazzy choice. My candidate bike would be the $150 Schwinn Clairmont ( http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Schwinn-Clairmont-Men-s-Cruiser-Bike-Brown-Gray/24430361 ). The lady's equivalent is the Fairhaven ( http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Schwinn-Fairhaven-Women-s-7-Speed-Cruiser-Bike-Cream/37370365 ). Again, experienced comments will be appreciated.

I would highly recommend the BBS01 Mid Drive and a 36V battery from em3ev.com.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=183

The Mid Drive is a pretty easy install, and will allow you to climb any hill. The PAS system on the Bafang is also very "cruiser friendly".

ES member Tomjasz is also a good resource for these kits.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=37287

18650 good luck

If you're going the DIY route, hope that wesnewell responds with his reflections on a yescomusa kit (usually cheaper on ebay). Otherwise, you might consider Dillenger; plug and play, and I've been happy with my 350w kit for $699 (with a 36 V, 10 ah battery). Depending on the condition of your pedal bikes, might be an add on.

Chas, here's links to the yescomusa/xcceries motor kits. Looks like your leafbike motor kit and costs less with free shipping. Freewheel is included with kit. The plain black cover motor is newer than the striped cover motors.

26" Electric Bicycle Motor Hub Kit Front/Rear Wheel Ebike36/48V250/500/800/1000W
http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Electric...el-Ebike36-48V250-500-800-1000W-/291119531800

36V500W 26" Rear Wheel Electric Bicycle Motor Kit E-Bike Cycling Hub Conversion
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V500W-26-...t-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/291413967539

48V1000W 26" Rear Wheel Electric Bicycle LCD Display Motor Kit E-Bike Conversion
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26...lay-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Conversion-/371289491857

Here's a link to sun-thing28's eBay store LiFePO4 battery section.

http://stores.ebay.com/sunthing28/LiFePO4-battery-/_i.html?_fsub=2328193016

If you search this forum for posts about yescom or sunthing there's a lot of info available.

Awful hard to compete with a $700 kit budget battery included.

What range, how much hill? I'd look for good used bikes before Walmart bikes. Scrounge a bit for a better kit. California eBikes has some 1000W front kits on sale. Very good MXUS motors, heavy spokes, Alex double wall rims. Easy front conversions.

Complete with High quality lithium pack $970. Not a cheap kit but one you can count on. Call Doug tell him Tom sent you. He'll do it right. I installed one of these kits fantastic deal.

Tomjasz approved!

chasindayton said:

Café racer handlebars aren’t exactly “comfort” but it’s a start.

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The first thing I would do is pick a bike you like to ride, that is comfortable for you. Then pick a motorization for *that* bike.

If it's not comfortable, and/or it doesn't fit you, and/or it's a piece of junk that falls apart and/or doesn't work right without a lot of replaced parts, how often do you think you'll ride it? (this is where I get at least some of the bikes I turn into other things...from people that didn't like it after they got it, for one of those reasons, among others).

That said, if you're comfortable with the linked bike (or rather, BSO (bike shaped object) , go for it if it makes the conversion easier.

But if you already have a bike you'd ride if it had a motor on it, well, put a motor on it.

[Should I use a torque arm with this frame? Good choice / source for such if so?]

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I'd use a torque arm with almost any motor on almost any frame, just in case. You might not need it...but if you do and don't have it, the results are usually unhappy in one way or another. (anything from torn wires to a faceplant).

Grin Tech / ebikes.ca has good torque arms that fit many bikes (maybe even most of them). But for many lower power motors, almost any torque arm will work and is better than none. Some kits come with one.



As for front vs rear, rear is often better on hills, but front is easier to work on/install, and leaves your regular bike wheel intact for any drivetrain it has in or on it. No need to worry about whether the shifters and rear sprockets all will still work without modification, other parts, spacers, etc.


Vbrakes are fine--as long as you adjust them right and use good pads like KoolStop Salmon (or the SINZ clone version which is almost as good), and you have aluminum (not steel) rims made for them. (If they work for my heavy CrazyBike2 pulling a trailer full of St Bernard, they'll work for most people).

Please fill in your profile location. Ref: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
When you add shipping cost, the kits from China become more expensive than comparable kits you can buy from a dealer in the US. Take your pick.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=48v+1000w+rear&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1
As for a battery. I only use rc lipo. Wouldn't touch anything else. But any with a 30A continuous output will work if you can stand the size, weight and cost.
I'm on my 3rd year and 10K+ miles of my Ledge 2.1. Solid frame for my 270 lbs. For comfort add 5" riser handlebars and a seat that won't go up your butt when you sit on it. This is the only seat I will ever buy.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WORKSMAN-6911v-Bicycle-Seat-13-In-Extra-Wide-/381021720272
The dropouts are steel on the ledge and I've never used a torque arm on any bike with steel dropouts.

Re the bike choice, I've liked full suspension bikes for a long time, because I can ride them farther than non suspension bikes. Bad back, too many years in construction. The mongoose is likely to be sized for a small teen. If you are 6' tall, you'll need to get it a longer seatpost, and riser (bmx) handlebars to get a reasonable fit. Fit is important.

But if you don't have that back problem, go for the cruiser. They are sized for real adults. Clarimont, or whatever, get a cruiser with a 7 speed rear gear. If you get a kit that needs a freewheel, it's possible to remove the freewheel from the old wheel, and put it on the motor wheel.

$30 for a freewheel is a tad steep, your local bike shop should have a 7 speed one cheaper. That's another option.

FOLLOW UP: Whew, this is like drinking from a fire hose. THANKS ONE AND ALL for the responses! As you all remember, this is a lot to digest, many decisions to make, lots of money on the line, and no turning back when I pull the trigger.

My thinking is to go with a 36v 500W front kit such as eBay item 321706262619 . This will presumably give me adequate assist with hills and wind, have good range with the relatively affordable Leaf 15Ah LiPo pack, and not be so frisky as to be a spin-out hazard on dirt roads.

QUESTIONS:

1. What would 250 lb. me expect regards grade performance and range?

2. What range and power trade off should I expect, if I go with the 36v 750w kit?

I may upgrade my existing Schwinn Midtown comfort bike (currently with worn tires), or I may get the Mongoose Ledge 2.1; either is a cramped ride, but I need suspension for my back and I don't need to spend big bucks for something better; I'm pretty easy to please. And I will get the wife either a Ledge, or one of the spiffy 7-spd. cruisers, as she decides.

3. Is the 36v 500w front hub modest enough to be unlikely to spin out on a dirt road? Front conversion sure does sound a lot easier.

4. Finally, the controls on this kit are a twist handle with a three-light battery indicator. Should I look for different controls, or other features, for any reason?

I greatly appreciate the over-the-shoulder voices of experience!

Chas

1. The ad says 25-35kph, roughly 15-21mph. Don't expect the high end of that even on level ground. I started with a 48V 500W kit and ordered a 48V 1000W kit 2 weeks later. I was 270lbs at the time. It just wasn't enough power for me.
2. Not much. the motor just won't burn up as fast.
3. I don't ever recommend front motors. Just think what could happen if 1) it spins out in a turn 2) the face plant you could take if it breaks the fork.
4. Handle or thumb throttle. Your choice. Having ridden K's of miles on motor cycles, I didn't think I'd like the thumb throttle, but That's all I use now. The 3 light battery indicator is designed for lead batteries and is pretty much useless for a lipo pack. Get a cheap voltmeter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-15-to-120V-Waterproof-Red-LED-Panel-Meter-DC-Digital-Voltmeter-Two-wire-NIGH/141365876290

Though you can run a front motor in the dirt, it's realllllly not recommended. Even easy dirt, like a flat dirt road, you really would have a nicer ride with a rear motor. In dirt, the wheel will spin at times, and that's really freaky for most people that are not vastly experienced riders. It's NOT an easier install.

36v will be fine, but it will be a lot more sluggish leaving a stop sign than a 48v kit. But 250 pounds is not too much for 36v, just too much for really perky performance.

Nothing really wrong with the ledge for moderate use. It will need some modifications, likely taller handlebars, new saddle, longer seatpost, that sort of thing to fit you. If you were planning on lots of miles, like a long daily commute, then a stronger frame would be advisable. Upgrading your bike in a year or two won't be so hard to afford if you really like e biking enough to wear out the ledge frame.

Go 48v rear motor and a plug and play battery all in one to keep it safer and ez to install and charge.

wesnewell said:

1. The ad says 25-35kph, roughly 15-21mph. Don't expect the high end of that even on level ground. I started with a 48V 500W kit and ordered a 48V 1000W kit 2 weeks later. I was 270lbs at the time. It just wasn't enough power for me.
2. Not much. the motor just won't burn up as fast.
3. I don't ever recommend front motors. Just think what could happen if 1) it spins out in a turn 2) the face plant you could take if it breaks the fork.
4. Handle or thumb throttle. Your choice. Having ridden K's of miles on motor cycles, I didn't think I'd like the thumb throttle, but That's all I use now. The 3 light battery indicator is designed for lead batteries and is pretty much useless for a lipo pack. Get a cheap voltmeter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-15-to-120V-Waterproof-Red-LED-Panel-Meter-DC-Digital-Voltmeter-Two-wire-NIGH/141365876290

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Hi Wes: Thanks for the input. It sounds like you are doing what I have in mind, and your advice is sound. Question: Can I really expect more than 40 miles with a 1000w hub under favorable conditions, with just a 10Ah 48v battery? The ads say "17Ah minimum battery size," which is why I was turning to 36v.

999zip999 said:

Go 48v rear motor and a plug and play battery all in one to keep it safer and ez to install and charge.

Click to expand...

That's my plan! What Ah with a 1000w hub though??

Save your nickels and don't get feverish. Buy the best motor you can save $$ to buy. MXUS, 9Continent, MAC and something with an upgraded wheel. Do it right on the motor and wheel. Other stuff can be upgraded. There's a lot of mediocre stuff that sounds good but may not be as sustainable. If one of us starts trying to sell you something, question, question, and question.

I just dd a front drive install for a fellow. good DD MXUS. But it's nowhere near as great a ride as a rear or mid drive. Listen tp Doc on that direction. He's forgotten more than I know...

Doc and wes are great sources, on the cheap. I just think in the long run a better motor and wheel will provide more satisfaction. But I have my own agenda too.

chasindayton said:

Hi Wes: Thanks for the input. It sounds like you are doing what I have in mind, and your advice is sound. Question: Can I really expect more than 40 miles with a 1000w hub under favorable conditions, with just a 10Ah 48v battery? The ads say "17Ah minimum battery size," which is why I was turning to 36v.

Click to expand...

The range you get from any battery pack will be determined by the speed you ride and the resistance you encounter. At 20 mph, you roughly need 21wh per mile. A 10ah 48v battery pack has 480wh (ah times nominal voltage equals wh (watt hours). A 10ah 36V battery only has 360 wh. The slower you ride the more range you get because you will use less wh per mile. Play with this.
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

40 miles possible from a 48v 10 ah battery only if you ride very slow, like sub 15 mph. At 25 mph, you will go more like 12 miles. 35 wh/m at 25 mph is typical. But below 15 mph, you can really get incredible efficiency because, A, you only need 200w or less, and B, you can pedal up 100-150w of that if you are young and strong.

Sick old guy like me, more like 50w, healthy 60 yr old, still can pedal 100w for a long ways. So when you are only needing 200w to go slow, you can pedal up half of it. At 25 mph, needing 800-1000w, only 10% can come from pedaling.

So even a 36v 10 ah battery will get you your 20 mile ride, if you plan on riding about 15 mph. 36v 15 ah is a good choice for size, 36v x 15 amp hours is in the 500 watt hour ball park. Plenty for rides at 15-25 watt hours per mile.

Thanks dogman dan, those are useful and accurate numbers!

I found that I could get around 13 Watt-hours per mile on my BBS02, if I rode at 16-18 mph. Low Speed is a fantastic range extender.
With enough experience, you will be able to estimate rather accurately how fast you should ride, in order to get a certain distance with your battery.

The young and strong can get 15 wh/mi for miles. Old and weak like me, I can do it for 5 miles, but not 40.

Most are stronger than me, I can still pedal for 40 miles, but I can't pedal that hard and make it that distance. 50w is my output, so it only helps a little. 18- 25wh/mi is more typical for me, on any ride longer than 10 miles. I'll get that going 15-18 mph.

Cali ebike has a kit for around $900. It blows anything else away. MXUS 750W 48V Alex DM double wall rim. Heavy spokes. Decent high quality battery. No, no name, clones. Not a great controller but adequate and they are one using. Lyen controller no junk.

STICKING A FORK IN IT: Thanks for everyone's inputs and patient explanations. I selected the eBay stateside-shipping "emma2012g" 48v 15Ah lithium pack @ $355 [[NOTE: "FREE SHIPPING" AIN'T, switch bait to $36 S&H each. I anticipated this from goofy listing text and feedbacks, accept at that price anyway.]] I bought two, total $780 with quick delivery. Finding a way to mount these with security, removability, vibration isolation, and ventilation remains the last daunting challenge.

Then on Amazon, I bought the Yescom "48V1000W Electric Bicycle LCD Display 26" Rear Wheel Motor Kit E-Bike Hub", two each again at $270 for the kit--I choose this hoping to be able to use the disk brake, and that the LCD will be useful.

I have decided to forego any suspension, and work with the apparently easy-as-pie 7-spd cruiser Schwinn Clairmont. I anticipate that the wife will choose the lady's equivalent Fairhaven. These give us the acceptable Schwinn quality, unfair weather fenders, a comfortable (if heavy) full-size frame, springy cruiser saddles, balloon front tire, and the old-fart style we grew up with.

Hopefully I won't need questions answered in the build up! Thanks again--Chas in Dayton

You must post to let us know have work out. I would like to hear about the Battery.
Thanks Good Luck.

Odd an yet interesting battery build. No feedback on batteries, or mind I could find in a quick search. Odd shape too. Looking forward to hearing how it works out.