Bionx CanBus Battery Rebuild Options?

lobodelmar

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I have a 36V/9.6 Ah Bionx CanBus battery that is now dead. The voltage dropped to about 2 volts and I disassembled the battery and charged it directly, but it does not hold voltage. Electric Rider can rebuild the old style batteries for about $450, but they are not capable of rebuilding the CanBus batteries for some reason.

Does anyone know of a company or individual that can rebuild these batteries for a reasonable price? To someone not that familiar with lithium ion batteries, it seems like it should be pretty straightforward to swap out the 10S6P 01-3054 battery pack for a new one and put in back in service. Obviously, there are some challenges with this that I am not aware of. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
if the BMS allowed the battery to drain that low you should build it with a different BMS. that is a really bad design and how BMSs get a bad and undeserved rap. that is just poor design of the pack by the engineer.

ok, i see you don't do work yourself so i would recommend you just buy another battery.
 
how to blow up your garage and all your bikes in it, just don't.. :D

Now seriously, it would be as straightforward as it sound. Just exchange the battery pack (cells) and reinstall BMS wiring and discharge ports.

The problem you get with Bionx Can Bus batteries, it that has their own BMS board, and you need to use again for the new battery pack, so battery configuration and voltages should be similar. (supposing you use the battery with your Bionx stuff)

it shouldn't cost more than $250 to do the job (indeed ~$200 in all the materials needed including cells)
 
I'm working on a rebuild of this style of BionX pack for a guy locally, and will post something about it on my blog when I'm done. I'm located in the Seattle area, if you're interested, but probably not at the prices I ask.

My builds are with the closest thing to the original cells I can get, though usually with significantly higher capacity.

I don't know where you getting $250 for a rebuild - the pack uses Sony US18650V LiMN cells, and the closest new cells you can get (of the same chemistry) are Sony US18650V3 cells. An advantage of these is that while the original cells are 1600mah, the new cells are 2250mah (minimum 2150) - so instead of a 9.6AH pack, it's a ~13.2AH pack.

http://www.batteryspace.com/hi-discharge-rate-sony-lithium-18650-rechargeable-cell-3-7v-2200mah-8-14wh---us18650v3-0-66---un-38-3-passed.aspx is the best US pricing I've found for the cells, and that's about $360 shipped for the cells. If you know where to get actual, honest, new US18650V batteries to rebuild with the original capacity, or a better price on US18650V3s, I'm all ears.

I'm asking $475 for the build, and this is my "new pack analysis and development" cost. Retail, I'd ask $500 + shipping.
 
Another option would be to open the motor, strip out the controller and convert it to an external controller so that you can use any battery you want, like one of those 09 bottle batteries with Panasonic cells. You should be future proof then.
 
d8veh said:
Another option would be to open the motor, strip out the controller and convert it to an external controller so that you can use any battery you want, like one of those 09 bottle batteries with Panasonic cells. You should be future proof then.

Are you aware of anyone who has successfully done that? I've seen some analysis of the communication protocols and a lot of speculation about replacing the controller, but I've yet to find anyone who has bothered to actually do it and prove it works.

However, at that point, you're very likely better off just scrapping the BionX system and putting a full new system in. Which isn't what was asked.

Rebuilding the pack isn't particularly hard if you've done such things before, though there are some tricky aspects to it with regards to getting the main wiring hooked back up cleanly - they're very stiff, and there's not much slack.

I'm hoping to have the pack I'm working on finished in the next week or so, and if it's successful, I'm happy to take on other pack rebuild projects.
 
Syonyk said:
d8veh said:
Another option would be to open the motor, strip out the controller and convert it to an external controller so that you can use any battery you want, like one of those 09 bottle batteries with Panasonic cells. You should be future proof then.

Are you aware of anyone who has successfully done that? I've seen some analysis of the communication protocols and a lot of speculation about replacing the controller, but I've yet to find anyone who has bothered to actually do it and prove it works.

However, at that point, you're very likely better off just scrapping the BionX system and putting a full new system in. Which isn't what was asked.

Rebuilding the pack isn't particularly hard if you've done such things before, though there are some tricky aspects to it with regards to getting the main wiring hooked back up cleanly - they're very stiff, and there's not much slack.

I'm hoping to have the pack I'm working on finished in the next week or so, and if it's successful, I'm happy to take on other pack rebuild projects.
There's a couple of threads from people who've done it. It's pretty straight-forward, but you have to be able to lace a wheel or get someone else to do it.

It would be a bit of a pain for OP if he rebuild his pack with new cells only to find that his BMS is faulty.
 
Unless there's some reason given that the battery is unexpectedly dead, the usual cause is "It sat for a long while."
 
I appreciate the input that everyone is providing. For a little more background, I just purchased two Bionx PL350 systems complete with batteries for $275. One battery works fine and the other battery is dead (which I knew when I purchased it). The exact details of the battery failure were not completely clear, but It sounds like it simply sat for a long time (1-2 years?). It is always possible that there is a problem with the BMS, but nothing points directly to it being the root cause.

When I bought the systems, I thought that the worst case scenario was that I would have a backup motor, controller, and charger and that the best case scenario would be that I could revive the battery as discussed in another thread on the forum. The battery wouldn't revive, so a reasonably good outcome would be that I can get the battery rebuilt for a fair price. At some point in the future, I might consider trying to install an external controller, but I would prefer to use the Bionx control system. For the type of riding that I do, I prefer a torque-sensing controller without a throttle.

Syonyk - I'll contact you directly through your blog to find out a little more about the potential rebuild.
 
I checked the voltage at the charger port and opened the battery pack up and checked the pack voltage directly from the leads coming off the back. When I checked the voltage initially, the entire pack voltage was about 2 volts. The previous owner had the system checked at the shop several months before and the voltage was 4.2 V. Anyway, I slowly charged the pack and brought the pack voltage up to 15 volts. When I removed it from the charger, the pack voltage slowly dropped to about 2 volts (in about 4-8 hours). I tried charging up to 15 volts again, and the same thing happened. I assume that the cells are irreversibly damaged based on the time spent at severe under voltage.
 
When you opened the battery, did it appear to have a true BMS -- did it have a set of sense wires going over to the battery brick?

The older 36V batteries did NOT have a true BMS and the only connection to the battery was the heavy positive and negative wires. There were two other wires, a black and yellow that go to the thermistor in the battery brick.
 
Hi guys,
im glad i found this thread. after many troubles i had when replacing dead cells in bionix batteries i was already thinking of starting a thread by myself.
Well, after disassemling over 10 packs (mostly 48V packs with 3p and 4p 18650 configutration, Sony V2 in it) i found out that replacing the battery is not the problem - it is the circuit + bms board that makes the problems.
From the 10 batteries, only 2 circuit boards do work correct. On the other i have seen blown FETs, chips, diodes, etc. Than if i thought it works, they stop charging at 70% or below. :roll:
I also have seen batteries where the cells are ok and balanced, but only charge to 70% and never to full. Or one had good cells but dead circuit board.

Im not sure about what type of can bus battery you are talking here exatly, but mine have circuit board with number 6.2b or 6.3c or similar in it. The board looks very complex and there is a special charging circuit on the board with a step up converter (like adaptto with its coil carging function). the Charger (or better call it power supply) only has 28V.

@ lobodelmar
it would be nice to see a picture of your battery and electronic board. i will post some from my stuff here if its ok.
 
Yes, my battery has a BMS board, also. It looks like this one is labelled Smart Connect 5.2. Any suggestions on how to test the board to see if it is bad?
 
your cells have really high self discharge so they appear to be pretty far gone.

if you can take a better picture of the BMS on both sides so we can analyze the circuits we might be able to advise.

also you might consider overcharging your pack to full voltage on all of the cells and the disconnecting the BMS and other wires from the pack to observe the self discharge rate when it is not connected to anything any longer.
 
i think i know that 5.2 board. if i remember right than this is an older version and it does not have single cell monitoring or balancing circuit so its no real BMS.
also i think it still works with normal charger without step up conversion.

lobodelmar said:
Any suggestions on how to test the board to see if it is bad?
thats really hard to tell. at least you need a working battery (the cells with connectors) and a charger. plug it to the board and charge it. if it works on the bike and charges to 100% than it should be OK.
i do not build a replacement battery before i have done this test.

Im so fed up with that bionix crap electronic. i really would like to know the reason why the hell it dies so often.
probabaly its not well engineered (as the many different versions let presume) or they have built in some kind of planned obsolescence that we need to buy a whole new battery after exhaustive discharge
 
It looks to me that you have a 36V battery without any real BMS, no sense wires on the battery brick.

One "relatively" inexpensive thing to try is to hook up 10s of 5Ah LIPO and see how the bike (and charger) work. 10s of 5Ah 20C Turnigy LIPO will fit in a Bionx downtube case with room to spare and will give you a VERY responsive Bionx system with limited range -- a little over half the original range. Bubble wrap makes nice padding for the spare room in the battery case. It is really easy to hook up, just positive to positive, etc. Try to keep the thermistor wire intact so the charger will run. If the Bionx charger won't run, just bulk-charge the LIPO to 41.5 volts and remember to check balance once in a while. If that makes the Bionx bike go nicely, just add another 10s of 5Ah in parallel and you are back in business with full range. Note, LIPO are more dangerous than the original Bionx battery and require much more careful care and feeding.

I ran a 36V I2C Bionx on 5Ah of LIPO for a several months without any problem. I just used the Bionx charger and periodically checked the LIPO balance.

I still run run 5Ah of 11s LIPO in parallel with an old (sorta tired - higher internal resistance) 6.6 Ah 41V Bionx/Trek battery, again using just the Bionx charger and checking the LIPO balance once every week. That is on my daily ride (7-12 miles every day in highest 200% assist mode) and has been working fine for more than five months. Someday I will probably either refurb the battery or buy a new one, but I am not in any hurry.
 
Looking to find replacement BMS circuit board for a 2013 Bionix 36V Rear Rack 350 SL Battery Case.
Or to repair or replace the BMS board. Instead of let Bionix force us to buy a whole new 36v battery for over $1000!
Does anyone has any suggestions? System was working fine on as an assist on special mobility Recumbent Ice trike for a friend who was disabled by a car on bike accident, with very little income to afford the Bionix "Just buy a new one" policy!
Some scoundrel stole her trike but we got it back, after they had tried to dill out the case locking tumbler. No damage to the main case, but the system stopped working after that. Fuse was not blown. No damage to circuit board I can see. But it just doesnt charge when plugged in and doesn't fire up the system. 36v Throttle and LCD all good. Battery itself down to 6. volts showing. Sensor on side of Battery pack seems to suggest it has the balanced charging feature.
Down to somehow testing the BMS Circuit board itself. Nit sure who or how. Bionix wont do it!

NOTE on PIC: The only blemish on the BMS board was some soft fuzzy gunk in the middle of the circuit board. Which cleaned off easily with a soft tooth brush. Oddly while sweeping if with the brush the Tail Light bulb would come on, and then off again only when brushing near the larger black chip in the middle of the gunky spot. Perhaps that is a clue?
 

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With the battery reading 6 volts, nothing is going to happen when you try to turn the system on with or without the charger attached.

You are saying that the battery has a true BMS because of some wires. How many wires run from the circuit board to the battery ? Is there a flat ribbon cable going to the battery from the circuit board ?

If there is no flat ribbon cable going from the board to the battery, then there is no "real" BMS. If that is the case, you can charge the battery directly.. If you try to do that, you need to do it slowly keeping the charge current to no more than half an amp or so. This will require a variable DC supply or a supply with a current limit control. You would also need a multimeter, etc. If this is NOT something you are comfortable doing, seek help from friends who e-bike, fly RC copters, do ham radio, etc. BTW, your profile does not say where you are. There might be somebody close to you who can help if they knew where you are.

IF you can get the battery back up to 24 volts or so the charger may recognize it and charge it. Above 29 volts, the charger definitely should work and the system should turn on and initialize, but the motor will not run until you have fully charged the battery.

Until you get the battery up to 29 volts or so, the fact that the system does not appear to turn on means nothing.

If you get the battery charged enough for the charger to work, let it get a full charge (until the charge light goes green or for 8-10 hours if the charge light never goes green.) before you try to do anything with it

You can access the battery directly by cutting the insulation on the heavy red and black wires between the battery and circuit board. Just roll the wire back and forth between your thumb and a sharp knife. Once the insulation if cut, you can pull it back a little in each direction and use an alligator clip to attach to the bare conductor. When you are done, you can push the insulation back together and tape over the area. This is safer than trying to get good contact to BAT+ and BAT- at the circuit board.

Unless you REALLY know what you are doing, I would not recommend trying to unsolder at BAT+ and BAT- on the circuit board, it is REALLY easy to damage a board that way.
 
Excellent Reply! Thank You Icerider!
Your comment about getting the charge level up makes sense too. So I will start there. I have found a friend of a friend with some circuit board experience, and we will use your suggestion to proceed. It makes sens as the the specially adapted ICE TRIKE she uses was working before the thieves stole it. And no doubt they ran it down to fully flat. Not sure why it didnt charge back up once recovered and plugged back in to the charger, but we will try to find out.
No Ribbon cable. Just the 3 RED, BLACK, and smaller Green wires, and the aforementioned 2 black wires to a square device attached to the side of the battery, possibly a temperature sensor?

Here's the story about Pegs Trike. We live in Vancouver British Columbia. Thanks Again! http://www.theprovince.com/health/piece+freedom+customized+bike+used+woman+with+brain+injury+stolen/11483971/story.html
 

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So, with only the three wires, this battery seems like a candidate for slow recharge. At 6V, it is VERY badly discharged and may not recover through charging, but it seems worth a try.

You will want to charge very slowly, certainly at a rate of < 0.5A and perhaps even more slowly, say down to 0.2 A. Bring the voltage up very slowly and keep the current DOWN. You will want to charge safely -- one option is to remove the battery block altogether and get it away from the circuit board. If you do that, mark the wires. The red green and black are OK, but the two black wires to the thermal sensor may not be interchangeable. At the very least, set it on a small towel or plastic plate in a large cast iron skillet so that a fire will stay contained. A small Hibachi would work, some folks set them on the grill of an outdoor barbecue.

Get the battery above 30V and the charger should work normally from there to full charge. If, after pre-charging up to 30V, the charger DID work normally and bring the battery to a full charge, I would take that as some indication that the battery is safe to try in the bike.

So, some other thoughts.
  • Given the high value of the bike, simply buying a new battery might just be the simplest and safest thing to do.
    Can you borrow an old 37V Lion battery from the local Bionx dealer -- maybe something they took in tradein -- the battery doesn't need much capacity, just enough to show that the rest of the system is still working. JVBike in Vancouver looks good (at least on the web).
    That same Bionx dealer almost certainly knows more than I do about how to recover this battery. Talking to them would be a good idea.
    You can probably get the battery rebuilt with new cells at http://www.electricrider.com/Lithium-Battery-Replacement-for-Bionx-Kits-p/bionxrebuild.htm

Some parting thoughts and a disclaimer. This battery has been BADLY over-discharged and may no longer be safe to charge at all. FIRE is a real possibility. While I believe that what I have told you is true, I make no claim of accuracy for the information and accept no responsibility or liability for what you may choose to do using this information.

With that said, Best of luck, and I will follow with interest whatever you decide to do.
 
Thanks Again Icerider!
The dealer refused our request to have batteries tested or replaced, or to try a back up battery to test the rest of the system. Insisting that a complete replacement was the only option, as manadated by Bionix to all dealers. IE: No dealer is permitted to open the case, at penalty of losing their dealer status. At full replacement at full cost was claimed to be the only option So we will try to slowly and safely bring the charge back up with some fire precautions.
I should think that the Lithium Battery units of the same dimensions inside the case could and should be able to simple be replaced with new ones. As there is excess room in terms of both width and length in the existing rear rack style case, a 10 AH or even 12 AH version of 36v Lithium Battery unit should be able to be installed. Be good to find a souce for just that item, as I am fairly confident the rest of the system in undamaged and intact.
 
Try the contact numbers at:

http://www.electricrider.com/Lithium-Battery-Replacement-for-Bionx-Kits-p/bionxrebuild.htm

They are advertising rebuilding I2C (pre 2009) systems, but the battery bricks are at least similar and maybe identical and without a proper BMS, you just need a brick of batteries with the red, black and green wires hooked up in the right places. I am pretty sure the thermal sensor can just be moved and glued down to the new brick.

IIRC electricrider wanted $480 for the brick for a downtube battery.
 
I also rebuild BionX packs, though I've not worked on a CanBus pack yet.
 
Thank you, nice blog.

Do you know off hand whether I can bulk charge one of the modern Bionx batteries (the ones with proper BMS) by just hooking up to the red and black wire coming out of the battery brick.

That would make short work of the question of how to solar charge a modern Bionx.
 
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