The 10.000W target!

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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macribs
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by macribs » Nov 28, 2017 5:29 am

For the record, I still find your arguments as weak as I did a year ago. 10 kw in a hard tail, no added structural strength. Man you are lucky to still be alive. Your bike could easily have turned into a heap of broken metall on one of your 80 km/h rides. Yeah I do know you didn't build it for going 80 km/h ALL the time, but you have taken design principle and turned it upside down and somehow think that is a good thing? People designing vehicle for a living they are not choosing brakes, suspensions and other safety equipments based on max national speed limit, or what speed most people drive most of the time. No they are building brakes, suspension etc according to max user input - and they do so for a very good reason.

That you have manged to survive w whole year I put that on luck alone ond only that. Your build is a dumb now as it was a year ago. People didn't tell you "you can not build this" if that was what you read. They gave you plenty of reason why you should not take a classic hard tail bicycle and strap on a 10 kw motor. Yet you are still alive. You have not proved a point, you are not special. In fact it seems you have grown absolutely nothing in the past 12 months.

For other people that stumble onto this thread, such a build does not make sense. It shows blunt disregard of respect for life and risk.
I am usually one that that applaud most high power builds. I like it when people push the limits. I know I favor powerful rides.

But ignorance & stupidity I do not applaud.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Nov 28, 2017 5:51 am

Check this out (use translation if needed) : http://cyclurba.fr/velos/2761/fatbike-m ... 2-3kw.html
This build is kind of similar and this guy is one of the smartest guy I've seen on EV forum. He is using his bike way harder than me (using 12kw EVERYDAY) since 20.000km now.
He know is bike, I know mine. If you use it as it should there is limited risk.
About the top speed, you judging without knowing anything about the condition I tested it. And yes it was a one shot ride with FULL bike protections. I'm riding big bikes too and I know too well how you feel when something goes wrong.
Everyday I see biker taking way more risk than I am. I'm decelerating way before potential danger (road crossing, etc).
The only "dangerous" thing I do on a regular ride is one wheelie just in front of my house. Yes it is dangerous, but it is my choice.

It is amazing how you are judging thinks without knowing anything about me, the usage or even the bike. Come and test the bike, I'm sure you would change your mind.
Anyway I'm not here to argue. I don't even know why I'm answering you. You just proove you don't know what you are talking about :roll: And please don't insult me...

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by macribs » Nov 28, 2017 6:42 am

My previous post was not intended to insult you. I was my way of speaking with capital letters, direct and without any sugar coating. Reason for doing that was to ensure my point came across. I am seldom this direct, but seeing as many other commented in this thread last year and you still did it your way I decided to try once more. TBH if you crash and burn at a track, for me personally it does not matter. But as I remember you being street rider I would really not like to see you crash and burn in traffic, sliding down the pavement. Not only for your sake but for sake of all e-bikers. And iirc you bolted the motor on to a classic bike frame with no suspension, no structural strengthening or otherwise improving the bike before converting. It was a bolt on job, plain and simple. With little regard for safety at high speed in public roads. An accident could be hurtful for you at best or worse. And such an incident would most likely impact the e-bike community as well in regards to bad press and more push for stricter regulations a.s.o.

It is not that you are using 10 kw or the other guy 20 kw. It is how you use it. 0-30 km/h acceleration run can really consume a lot of power. But you are still not in the deadly zone if something goes wrong. Add another 50 km/h to the game and have a frame split over a pot hole in 80 km/h and you could very well be dead, or chained to a wheel chair.

It is not you power, your choice of batteries etc that got people fired up last year. It is that you planned for and build a bike to do 80 km/h without adding any structural strength to the frame, fork or wheels. You slapped on a 10 kw motor heck for all I know you might have ridden with rim brakes or whatever. It is crazy even to plan such a powerful build without adding strength as the bear minimum.

A 10 kw dd hub motor in the rear wheel has already made your original bicycle handle a lot worse. Then add batteries. Now start to ride that "bicycle" in speeds and with loads that was never intended and things can go horribly wrong so fast, one big pot hole in front of you could in fact ruin the frame, while at speed. Because the bicycle was not designed to have a heavy hub motor in the rear wheel. Or 10 kilos of batteries in the triangle. Or be ridden with all that at 80 km/h.

The steel, joints, welds etc was never made to cope with this kind of stress. Over time they will fail. Let's hope the break point come at best possible time, slow speed etc. Most like it won't. Failure point will likely be in a high stress situation where you yet again put more stress on the frame or other parts then the designer intended. Things can go ugly really fast.
Last edited by macribs on Nov 28, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Nov 28, 2017 7:08 am

I'll try one more time to explain my needs, I don't thing you guys understand what I'm doing (maybe because of my bad english...).

I TOTALLY agree that building a bike to do regularly 80km/h based on a classic frame is really dumb.
I TOTALLY agree that riding my bike offroad will break the frame quickly.
I TOTALLY agree that good brakes are essential.
I TOTALLY agree that welds are not design to handle repeated abuse.

This is exactly why I'm not doing any of this.
I'm riding everyday at 45 km/h, not more. If I wanted a bike to do 60+ km/h often I would have choose a raptor frame (or other).
I don't are about top speed, all I want is wheelie. I juste check once (twice actually) my top speed. And i did that with full equipment.
I'm taking care about welds, I'm checking it regularly.
I'm using good hydraulic brake.
So if the main complain is about top speed, it is not at all how I'm using the bike.
For the weight, juste remember I'm 65kg, so me + the bike are 100kg, the same as a 85kg men on a 15kg bike (constraints are not the same I know).
About handling, I just have to say, try it. You will see it is way better than classic e-bike with battery on top of the rear wheel for exemple. It was a really important point for me when I designed it and I found solutions to have a good result (with mass transfer it is really good when you entering the corners).
Once again what make me smile is wheelie... That's what this bike is all about.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by MadRhino » Nov 28, 2017 9:44 am

Don’t worry. I ride much faster and harder, and never broke a frame other than in a crash.

My last bike was doing well above 100kmh, riddend in mountain trails 60 to 70 kmh daily. I did over 30,000 km on it, and it is still good.

Some are riding Wallbikes and believe everybody does. Build a good DH bike on good wheels, and you can ride it hard and fast NP.

Then, lifting the front easily is not a matter of power. It is about geometry.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by macribs » Nov 28, 2017 11:06 am

Yeah if it was a DH to begin with I am sure this thread would not have escalated the way it did last year. He didn't start with a DH but with a classic bike with no suspension, whatever that might be.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by John in CR » Nov 28, 2017 11:28 pm

Limpsilver,

I scanned thru the thread and didn't see if the frame is aluminum or steel. If aluminum then I personally wouldn't ride it, but would have no problem if it's steel. My 9 year old steel cargo bike is a hardtail, goes right at 100kph with a fresh charge. I did reinforce at the dropouts, but otherwise it's a bicycle. Being a hardtail you just gotta avoid those potholes, though I've still hit my share without issue.

I'm only against aluminum because it fails without warning. I don't have the tools for working with aluminum anyway, and a pound or a few certainly isn't going to make any difference for road use with a motor. My cargo bike developed a squeak during regen in the first year of use, so I beefed up the welds in the dropout area, which cured it permanently. In the same conditions I believe aluminum would have failed catastrophically.

Whether steel or aluminum, would I build an ebike like yours to sell to someone else? No way! Would I build one for myself? Sure. I take full responsibility for my builds. These guys would probably have a cow over my current 50km/day commuter, but I know its limitations and ride accordingly in full compliance with the generous law governing my 2 wheel EVs.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by markz » Nov 28, 2017 11:51 pm

For some reason I always thought when I read John CR's post and the speeds, that you were riding a scooter or dedicated motorcycle looking bicycle, that's all the rage these days. Beefed up cargo would be a sight to see doing 70+kph.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 29, 2017 3:27 am

I can vouch John's bikes are all 10kW+ and easily do 60mph+

Only the bike I made for my wife has been under 10kW so far, and it's 8kW.

One man's rocket is another man's snoozer commuter.

That said, use the best suspension, brakes, wheels and tires available if you're going bicycle parts vs scooter wheels/tires.
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by John in CR » Nov 29, 2017 6:42 pm

markz wrote:
Nov 28, 2017 11:51 pm
For some reason I always thought when I read John CR's post and the speeds, that you were riding a scooter or dedicated motorcycle looking bicycle, that's all the rage these days. Beefed up cargo would be a sight to see doing 70+kph.
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by rojitor » Nov 30, 2017 7:10 am

This thread puzzles me. Ok mr fabien...
Why do you need pas for a 10 kw setup? It is as illegal as a non pas build.
Why 10 kw for 45 kmh? You can reach that easily under 1 kw
I understand the acceleration thing...but again why a pas if it is totally illegal?

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by markz » Nov 30, 2017 7:28 pm

John in CR - I dig your ride!

rojitor - My best guess - The average joe on the street would see a person on a bicycle pedaling. And at 45kph which isnt much, but if you are going straight up a hill then 100V 100A setup laced into a 16" or 17" motorcycle rim, would help.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by John in CR » Nov 30, 2017 9:57 pm

I think PAS would be the only way to provide meaningful human effort with a high power setup. The OP said he likes having the high power for short bursts of showing off, and then he settles into his long commute with plenty of pedal power the whole way.

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