The 10.000W target!

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
cwah
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by cwah » Aug 17, 2016 7:33 pm

flat tire wrote:Wear issues aside I don't see the need for 10kw when you only need to go 45 kph. That's not fast at all. You could have a mid drive do that speed easily and have good acceleration due to gearing, way better weight distribution, huge reduction of unsprung weight...The only reason to get a hub motor in my opinion is if you want to sustain the fast speeds where you need high power to get around the wind resistance. If you only need to hit 45 kph a 1KW mid drive with some mild overclocking is a much better solution.

Also, try full suspension, you will be amazed.
Dd definitely has benefits over mid drive... let me tell you some...
- no gears or clutch to wear on high power
- no bicycle chain or cassette to damage on 10KW acceleration power
- regen to save on brakes
- absolutely silent
- almost maintenance proof. No chain to lube/clean
- no need to bother about changing speed from start to cruising speed....
- easier to repair when damaged...


For all these reasons, I got rid of my bbs02 and don't plan to go mid drive anytime soon.

To my view, mid drive are not evolved enough for ebikes and at 10kw bikes components (chain and cassette) just wear too fast to be convenient.
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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dogman dan
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by dogman dan » Aug 18, 2016 6:20 am

If that is really all you need,, then all you need is about 2000-3000w. Do get the big motor, it will pull much nicer than one with smaller magnets and less copper, yet when you ride it slow on flat ground, it will still be just as efficient as a small motor.

For now,, run it on 2000w, 48v 40 amps, or maybe 60 amps. (3000w) It might be all you need or want. You'll have 30-35 mph top speeds, ( or more with 72v) and a nice fast acceleration from a stop sign. A 2000w bike will still be suitable for bike tires as well, but upgrading to a smaller diameter moped tire and rim might still be well worth it. Lengthen the frame with custom dropout/ torque plates, so the fat rubber fits in the frame. Disk brake, or if nothing else, make your rear brake with regen.

Later on, you can run it on 10,000w when you invest in a more suitable bike. The one I rode had that same muxus motor on it. It was a very expensive, very high quality FS MTB. Personally, I did not like riding it very much. Sure, it was cool to wheelie it down the street in front of my house. But out in the dirt, it was actually way too high powered to ride well. You need to turn, and to do that, you kind of need the front wheel touching the ground, at least for a moment or two. You had to ride that bike in a funny position, jamming that wheel back down constantly.

Lets' get this perfectly clear. I was not scoffing having a fun bike. I was just saying that 10,000 watts on that particular bike is not a good idea at all. So run less amps for now, on your big motor. Keep it reasonable for that bike, till you get a bike with suspension and handling characteristics similar to a moto cross motorcycle.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by flat tire » Aug 22, 2016 9:10 pm

OK so here's some encouraging news for your thread, I'm doing power wheelies with only 3-4kw thru a 1500w leafmotor which has a reasonably high speed winding.
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by Wheazel » Aug 23, 2016 3:04 am

flat tire wrote:OK so here's some encouraging news for your thread, I'm doing power wheelies with only 3-4kw thru a 1500w leafmotor which has a reasonably high speed winding.
What wheelsize?

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by flat tire » Aug 23, 2016 3:30 am

26" mtb wheel / 2.25 mtb tire
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 23, 2016 3:34 am

Everything is bought.
I received the point welder yesterday and the cells today. So I start my battery tonight 8)

flat tire : where is located your battery? If the gravity center is bad enough you can power wheelie with 50W :mrgreen:

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by flat tire » Aug 23, 2016 5:03 am

I put my battery on top of the top tube in the middle for agile cornering. I also have about 12 lbs over the front wheel zip tied to the handlebars. It's my repair / tool bag and the effect of the ballast on handling is really nice. The CG isn't that good for anti-wheelie, but it's not horrible.
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 23, 2016 7:22 am

Ok, good news :D

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by atarijedi » Aug 23, 2016 2:25 pm

I don't think anyone else mentioned this, but Adaptto definitely has PAS.

If you go to their support section, you'll see in the diagram there is a hookup for a PAS sensor. Their descriptions of the firmware types also state they have PAS. Been this way for at least the last month (when I started looking into it).

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 23, 2016 3:13 pm

Oh really? I didn't know that!
I would have choose sabvoton anyway.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by ziltoid81 » Aug 23, 2016 9:07 pm

atarijedi wrote:I don't think anyone else mentioned this, but Adaptto definitely has PAS.

If you go to their support section, you'll see in the diagram there is a hookup for a PAS sensor. Their descriptions of the firmware types also state they have PAS. Been this way for at least the last month (when I started looking into it).
There is also a "cop safe" firmware.
Hit one button and the "eco" (pas only) mode (you can set this mode to 25kmh and 250w) is locked in, secured with a password so you cant change back without.
Adaptto will give you the firmware if you ask.

Adaptto also isnt really that expensive.....you have the display and the charger included.
You need a cheap power supply with at least 12, better 24V or 48V, thats it.
You will find one in every household i guess, try this for a real 20s charger.
There is also a anti theft possibility, but they moved it to the unlocked firmware, so it dosent really count.
But if youre counting pennies, yes the adaptto may be a little pricier than another solution.

Also are the sabvotons still that big like the first ones?
An adaptto is tiny compared to that.....cause you mentioned the overall "cop safe" look of the bike.
Where on that normal frame will you mount all the stuff?
In the end it will look worse than a clean build with an evelbike, qulbix or what not frame.
I had several encounters with the cops and my qulbix now........i guess they will catch you sooner when there are thick cables, controllers and stuff hanging around. :lol:

Freeezzzeeee youre hiding a bomb there.

Also i cant imagine leaving the bike for 5 seconds with all the stuff free mounted on the outside.

Maybe a little bike trailer with all that ebike stuff is a solution, masked as a child trailer. :wink:

But i guess you dont want to hear advises either.......you just want to present this "precious" project.
You bought everything in advance anyway.

But most of the guys here have clean and good builds, and more important, experience, so of course they will try give you advises to change that ghetto setup.

But its too late i guess, im glad YOU have to ride this thing....... :wink:

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by Wheazel » Aug 24, 2016 1:42 am

Yes adaptto has a PAS function. But I would like to add a few remarks.

1. The PAS is not selectable, it is activated in the eco profile at all times. If the controller gets a pas signal it will operate.
2. The pas (or any settings related to it) can not be accessed in the menus, and not chosen for any other profile. (normal and boost)
3. In older firmwares (fixed nowadays) the pas had priority over ebrake, which made it dangerous.

I have the Max-E pas version on my cargobike, and sometimes I use the eco profile with pas, but its mostly there for show.
I would have preferred to have settings around the pas in the controller.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 24, 2016 2:50 am

Wheazel wrote:Yes adaptto has a PAS function. But I would like to add a few remarks.

1. The PAS is not selectable, it is activated in the eco profile at all times. If the controller gets a pas signal it will operate.
2. The pas (or any settings related to it) can not be accessed in the menus, and not chosen for any other profile. (normal and boost)
3. In older firmwares (fixed nowadays) the pas had priority over ebrake, which made it dangerous.

I have the Max-E pas version on my cargobike, and sometimes I use the eco profile with pas, but its mostly there for show.
I would have preferred to have settings around the pas in the controller.
Ok so PAS + CAV3 seems better.
ziltoid81 wrote:There is also a "cop safe" firmware.
Hit one button and the "eco" (pas only) mode (you can set this mode to 25kmh and 250w) is locked in, secured with a password so you cant change back without.
Adaptto will give you the firmware if you ask.

Adaptto also isnt really that expensive.....you have the display and the charger included.
You need a cheap power supply with at least 12, better 24V or 48V, thats it.
You will find one in every household i guess, try this for a real 20s charger.
There is also a anti theft possibility, but they moved it to the unlocked firmware, so it dosent really count.
But if youre counting pennies, yes the adaptto may be a little pricier than another solution.

Also are the sabvotons still that big like the first ones?
An adaptto is tiny compared to that.....cause you mentioned the overall "cop safe" look of the bike.
Where on that normal frame will you mount all the stuff?
In the end it will look worse than a clean build with an evelbike, qulbix or what not frame.
I had several encounters with the cops and my qulbix now........i guess they will catch you sooner when there are thick cables, controllers and stuff hanging around. :lol:

Freeezzzeeee youre hiding a bomb there.

Also i cant imagine leaving the bike for 5 seconds with all the stuff free mounted on the outside.

Maybe a little bike trailer with all that ebike stuff is a solution, masked as a child trailer. :wink:

But i guess you dont want to hear advises either.......you just want to present this "precious" project.
You bought everything in advance anyway.

But most of the guys here have clean and good builds, and more important, experience, so of course they will try give you advises to change that ghetto setup.

But its too late i guess, im glad YOU have to ride this thing....... :wink:
You are so mad, funny...

I took advise from a lot of people, people who know what they are talking about (Merlin, riba2233, two people not on ES riding sabvoton and max-E on classic frame, people who tried sabvoton AND max-E). They gave me great advise. That's how I build the bike. Did you tried sabvoton and Max-e? Did you try 10.000w on a classic bike? I don't think so. You just think you know. I took advise from people who tried it actually. Not people who think they know.
You just criticize and tell me to do as you did. I really don't like people thinking they did the best job and other way are rubbish.
You don't know how I'll do it but you already know stuff will be outside :roll: Worst case scenario, the controller will be at the same place as on a vektor frame and will be the only thing outside. But I'll try to keep it inside. Maybe I'll not be able but it will be close.

BTW I bought all the stuff after reading what you said. It is just you giving me no advise... You criticize... You just tell me the frame will break (I don't think you are right as it will be reinforced) and that I have not enough place (which is wrong). You told me max-E is better than sabvoton because you own a Max-e. Both have pros and cons for sure. So close minded...
And you know, I really don't really like how you did your bike, it is way to heavy. It is not a bike anymore. But I'm not telling you it is crap. It is probably the best bike for you. But not for me. So please just don't answer this thread anymore...

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 24, 2016 3:49 am

I tried for first parallel line yesterday.
It is a ugly... but it should work :D
I'll try to do a cleaner work tonight.
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by ziltoid81 » Aug 26, 2016 8:16 am

limpsilver wrote: You are so mad, funny...
Nah.....if I had to ride this thing i would be mad.... :lol:
Btw....i didnt use enough smileys i guess.......no one is mad.....maybe you? :P
And again, in the end you have to ride it......why the hell i should be mad? THATS funny.

Merlin always did great builds, i cant imagine that he encourages you to take a classic bike for this.

limpsilver wrote:
Did you tried sabvoton and Max-e? Did you try 10.000w on a classic bike? I don't think so. You just think you know. I took advise from people who tried it actually. Not people who think they know.
You just criticize and tell me to do as you did. I really don't like people thinking they did the best job and other way are rubbish.
Holy smokes....whos the mad man in here again. :lol:

Thank god i didnt try 10kw on a classic bike, hell no, i love my life.

I will never say shit like i did it the best.....but i would also always say dont use that normal bicycle stuff for a 10k setup.
I owned a max and now a midi e with a 12kw setup, i know what im talking about.
I never used the sabs because of the size, YOU mentioned that you want a normal look.....not me, so please dont mess with my and your words.
In the end its your choice.....again.
Merlin did use the sab on a propper qulbix frame, complete other story.
limpsilver wrote:
So please just don't answer this thread anymore...
Whos the mad man again? Lol
And i dont think youre in the position to shut other people up.

Also youre missunderstanding a lot, maybe at will.

I was ASKING where you want to mount all that stuff, is reading this hard?

I just want to prevent you from doing it wrong, i didnt meant this to be rude.
A few jokes here and there should be allowed, but in your case i have to be more sensitive i guess. :wink:

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 26, 2016 8:23 am

Yes I'm too sensitive, you're absolutely right about everything and my bike will explode the first time I'll ride it. You're happy ? Now just move on dude...

Working on the battery, 3s6p for now...
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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by jpgey » Aug 26, 2016 8:59 am

Hello Limpsilver, as frenchie also in this forum I think we should be peaceful, as this is the thread "E-Bike General Discussion" then anyone can give advice, good or not.
People only wants to prevent you from a disappointment or a fatal crash as most of folks you quote that are not in ES spin yarns.
Anyway, keep us updated with you build, we could meet and have a race someday ?

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 26, 2016 9:46 am

Sure! Where are you from?

I'll try to finish it in two weeks 8)

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by jpgey » Aug 26, 2016 10:23 am

limpsilver wrote:Sure! Where are you from?
I'll try to finish it in two weeks 8)
I'm in Paris but I can move !
Regards

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Aug 26, 2016 10:32 am

I'm from Rennes

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by flat tire » Aug 26, 2016 2:14 pm

Ignore the haters and idiots, they've all got something to say. All the people afraid to try something new or against conventional wisdom will never have very badass ebikes.
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by Cephalotus » Aug 26, 2016 4:20 pm

Audi needs 2,3kW Motor for "automatic" wheely functionality...

https://youtu.be/5_h-WxZgMfM?t=143

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by jpgey » Aug 27, 2016 12:02 pm

Cephalotus wrote:Audi needs 2,3kW Motor for "automatic" wheely functionality...
https://youtu.be/5_h-WxZgMfM?t=143
Nice video, anyway always fasten your helmet straps :wink:

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by macribs » Aug 28, 2016 1:17 pm

flat tire wrote:Ignore the haters and idiots, they've all got something to say. All the people afraid to try something new or against conventional wisdom will never have very badass ebikes.

I think you have read the whole thread wrong, maybe you should read it one more time?
There are no haters nor idiots in this thread. OP ask for advice and he gets a lot of them. If anyone is the hater it must be OP as he is the one getting angry and try to silence people.

The people trying to help in this thread have done some really bad ass builds - yet they manage to build a little safety into their rides. If that makes them idiots in your eyes, well then we know who the real idiot are.

Sure OP can have a classic looking bike - but converting a classic into e-bike does not mean frame must stay original. Nor should it with 10 kw of power.
There are ways to strengthen the frame. There are even ways of making a rear suspension that is more or less hidden. Surely it will not be a bolt on solution but bad ass builds rarely are. Having skills and curiosity is a good thing for builders, as is the knowledge to do whatever safety measures that are needed.

Ignorance is seldom a good thing.

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Re: The 10.000W target!

Post by limpsilver » Nov 28, 2017 4:13 am

More than one year later, some news.

The bike is a beast and is running fine. I've done almost 10.000km, no major problem. The only 2 things that didn't work are regen and PAS (it works but not smooth at all).
It is doing power wheelie from 0 to >40km/h :twisted: Top speed : a bit more than 80km/h (with flux weakening) but most of the time I'm cruising at 45km/h and using way less than max power.

Internal resistance of the battery seems good to me after more than 150 (~180) cycles: 70~80mOhm (same as last year).

Frame is still in really good shape.
So far so good...

So the bike did not explode at first test, the battery did not die quickly (6P), I'm not using it every time at full speed, a no suspension bike can do easily more than 45km/h. Or other stuffs some says last year.

This is NOT a "I was right you were wrong" message, so please no haters. I just want to show that it can work (depending on the usage) and if somebody want to go this way he can get something really amazing. And I can help him...

Thanks for the help 8)

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