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2old

100 kW
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Just chastised for defending a vendor and about over ES anyway so here's a few thoughts:

1) Negative reports should be confined to the reviews section and should be about products the individual actually purchased and used.

2) There are a lot of posters with cottage industries who have motives that are very transparent to everyone but the mods.

3) Lots of individuals like to take a shot at Eric since Luna is doing so well; after all, you don't purchase a $200,000 Audi with spinach.

4) Justin is probably thinking "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
 
I've no dog in this fight but used to browse this forum extensively years ago.

The difference in atmosphere here now is pretty noticeable. I think it's detrimental to the forum and guys looking to build something. There are obvious bad actors in the form of ripoff artists out of eBay or the famous Joshua Goldberg chronicles-Eric (Luna) isn't one of these cases. A business conducting hundreds of sales will have a few bad ones-why hash the shit over and over. One particular poster has made it his mission to tear down Eric's operation. I find it despicable. Come up with facts or quit the one man witch hunt for crying out loud.

The easiest way to deal with all of this is to consider the posts trolling or spam-which they are.

I love the wild west feel of this place, but to let this go the way it is might turn this place into a wasteland. E-S has tons of useful info, but there are already at least TWO viable outlets for info some of the most useful posters can go to if made uncomfortable here. Think guys like Spinning Magnets. What to happens to E-S when they leave?
 
First, thanks to the mods for all the hard work.

It would be nice if the tech areas were more clear of attacks and noise. Just a few of these generates a lot of extra off-topic discussion that drives users away and smokescreens the valuable technical content, as well as wastes our time trying to respond to the camoflaged attacks.

Also sig lines should be clear of these negative comments. It's getting as bad as politics. In a sense, it is ES politics. Do we have a section for that? Why do we let it pollute our threads? Anytime something is put into a sig it instantly gets reposted thousands of times. Perhaps there should be a tighter rule about what appears in sigs than what is in postings. What is the purpose of sigs? They get posted across potentially ALL categories, so their purpose and content may need to be more specific.

Sig lines should not be Google searchable either. It pollutes the Google searches. The bots should only see the article content minus the sigs.
 
To the Mod's and Everyone,

The way we as a society have the great , products that we enjoy today, is because of ... Criticism and Competition !

The whole world needs both when it comes to consumer products .

Each person/reader can view a certain post , by any of the other person / poster , in a way that their own mind wants to think/perceive .

It is important that we all have/ and Keep the ability to read any Criticism .. of Any , product . This is for the Benefit of All .

Now

In regards to the thread on the Xiondga Hub motor, what a few might think of as a personal vendetta, by a couple of E.S. members that I will not mention, to a certain vendor is .. not, seen by most of us as a vendetta, rather a criticism of a product such vendor is selling .

Personally I do Not , have any personal vendetta or even dislike for the vendor in Southern California, or his business. ( but I will voice concerns about a product as should we all and all be able to )
Even though I did not criticize the Xiondga motor, I , like many other people do have some legitimate concerns .

What I see that has happened by what a few mis-interpret, as a vendetta or dislike to Luna ... ( not me) , has had a Very Positive , Benefit. The Fact that Eric , owner of Luna Cycle Llc has taken the initiative
to hop on a Plane and Fly to China and meet with the owner and/or manager of the company is Something more Vendors should do .

This is Progress ! Great and much needed Progress !

We all know about the lack of quality control regarding products coming from China, and
Many of us are , Very Frustrated, of the lack of improvements in regards to DIY E-Bike/Scooter etc Products .
and We are Also Very Disappointed in the slow speed, of any improvements of the products we buy from there.
So much so that I still have not bought a mid-drive.

So Keep the Threads ... Free , Free to all thoughts and criticisms. that is the , Only way are going to see progress .

Especially when we see that a result like Eric going to the Factory to address any problems with the motor ,
thereby getting a better product for us .
This is Good for All of US !
 
What I considered egregious was an individual criticized a supplier using as an example a product that he gave no information as to when he (allegedly) purchased it or how he (allegedly) used it; then he said this phantom product had a discrepancy that he detected. He used this example multiple times no matter what product was being discussed. The slant of his comments suggested (to me) that he was doing it at the behest of a pernicious opponent of the manufacturer. When I defended the manufacturer, I was called a shill even though I had never met him nor talked to him.
 
2old said:
The slant of his comments suggested (to me) that he was doing it at the behest of a pernicious opponent of the manufacturer. When I defended the manufacturer, I was called a shill even though I had never met him nor talked to him.

So now you accuse him of being a shill?
 
2old,

It is too much work / too much of my time to sort out who hates/has a vendetta , between all the different parties/posters here on E.S.

I have my own/can make up my own mind in regards to any product, to do so, I need to hear from all parties, those satisfied and those not satisfied.

I have no bad feelings about Eric or his business, In fact I am impressed in how far he has come in such a short while.
If he has a better product at a better price, I will buy from him, if not , I will buy from someone else.

I do have very strong feelings about how the Chinese , continuously send us out dated, products that need improvement.
so know in the future/in my future writings , that is where I am coming from , the basis for what I write, not to dish or offend any vendor, instead to get vendors/consumers to demand the better products that we deserve.







2old said:
What I considered egregious was an individual criticized a supplier using as an example a product that he gave no information as to when he (allegedly) purchased it or how he (allegedly) used it; then he said this phantom product had a discrepancy that he detected. He used this example multiple times no matter what product was being discussed. The slant of his comments suggested (to me) that he was doing it at the behest of a pernicious opponent of the manufacturer. When I defended the manufacturer, I was called a shill even though I had never met him nor talked to him.
 
2old said:
What I considered egregious was an individual criticized a supplier using as an example a product that he gave no information as to when he (allegedly) purchased it or how he (allegedly) used it; then he said this phantom product had a discrepancy that he detected. He used this example multiple times no matter what product was being discussed. The slant of his comments suggested (to me) that he was doing it at the behest of a pernicious opponent of the manufacturer. When I defended the manufacturer, I was called a shill even though I had never met him nor talked to him.

Not really a moderator's concern, this is just a place where people share a similar hobby and deals are made on ones own behalf
 
To the Mods,
The challenge is to enable debate on tech, products and info that improve e-mobility.
Products, vendors, perceived and actual conflicts of interest should be discussed to benefit the community.

ES should be where ideas and views are exchanged. Including products, vendors and online claims.
In my short time I've seen several partial and impartial products reviews. The challenge is allowing debate on info from outside ES (Facebook, youtube, web etc).

Recent Facebook videos deriding the quality of one product vs competing products, and naming several vendors as being biased or underhanded. The videos are not impartial but how can we exchange ideas about such issues in a different environment? Where the videos originated is not in my feed so I don't have context, but It would be great if I could turn to ES to read an exchange of views on the issues.

ES should be the place where truth is found. Where product analysis is open for debate and vendors seek impartial review.

The challenge is enabling debate. Facilitate discussion in appropriate threads, if threads aren't appropriate start threads to debate issues in and outside of ES. Otherwise lose relevance to community influences such as FB etc.

To the mods, vendors and community I'm grateful for your contribution. Let the people debate and exchange ideas.
To vendor associates, fans, and others be brave; embrace impartial reviewers. Data and results will benefit the community and sell products.
 
FWIW,,, Most of us moderators have nothing to do with ES facebook. ES facebook is NOT ES. Personally I stopped looking at it. I just find facebook in general to be inconvenient to use to me. Like drinking from a fire hose.

As for here,, there are rules about malicious attacks, and if you get too out of line we will give you a week off a few times, then it's hasta la vista baby. Don't like what a vendor did to you,, have your say. But if you begin some kind of crusade, expect a few vacations from ES. Tell us to F off in a PM,, bye bye immediately. From the mods point of view, its very hard to say where exactly the line is between legit gripes, and going on a malicious crusade. In the end, it often comes down to personality. Kooks allowed if they are mellow, others just get too raw to allow to post outside of the toxic section.

Bottom line,, if you make the mods start to have to work too hard,, we get rid of you. This job is not easy, and it's entirely unpaid. Nobody, I mean nobody we can't live without here. We love a good harsh discussion here, but start making us edit your spew daily, and our solution is easy.

Obviously I work for Jason Kraft, so no way I'm editing any post about or from Eric/Luna. I have to bow out of vendor squabbles completely since I work for one. I just wanted to clarify how the mods operate a bit. We like to allow a lot of give in the rules, the argument if kept short of trolling is fun. The differing points of view are valuable. And if a really bad vendor is out there, we do want to spread the word. Same for a really good one. But if you go on a crusade, and tick the whole group off, nobody in the mod group will fight to let you stay or lift a permanent ban.

I'm just trying to say, if you find you are getting PM's from mods, or your posts are vanishing,, you are walking the wrong side of the fine line. Start thinking about if you want to post on ES, or just read it.
 
Thanks dogman, for a little insight into the process and the thinking, and to all the mods for their effort in this difficult process.

I've been involved with various forums and other similar venues and it is a difficult job. In one case they harshly separate product discussions from vendor discussions. A posting in the product review area that talks about vendors is removed. This seems to work well.

Vendors and manufacturers are always going to have followers and haters. It is the nature of business. Whether it is Bill Gates or Elon Musk or Ford or Chevy (or our president-elect), there's always going to be some set of customers crusading for or against them for some issue real or imagined. I know of one case (not in the ebike field) where the very small company makes high quality products and has developed a strong following of customers, as well as the haters who think he charges too much, or disagree with his product claims, and that he is paying off people to make good reports, etc. In that case I know the situation well enough to see this is not true or even possible, there just isn't enough money for that to happen and the individual's code of ethics would not allow it anyway. But the haters are convinced.

In one case here on ES we have a hateful signature that contains many antagonistic claims against a vendor. One claim is that the vendor "lies" about the capacity of their packs. The math is pretty simple, it appears that the vendor took the manufacturer's cell capacity data and multiplied it by the number of parallel cells in the pack. The cell manufacturer provides several capacity values on the datasheet, and they picked the higher, more optimistic one. As an engineer I would tend to choose the lower "guaranteed" capacity which would yield a slightly lower number, or better yet - base it on extensive testing. Many vendors do exactly what vendor did, and continue to do so (in some cases they claim even more). The cell manufacturer's try to make cells that exceed their specs, so in actual measurements on packs, this vendor found the packs to meet the higher numbers, in testing involving small sample sizes. While these pack ratings were optimistic, I think it is extreme to refer to this as "lying", and there are dozens of other vendors routinely doing this so it is hardly unusual.

Customer interactions with a vendor occasionally go bad, and not all customers are completely honest. Occasionally some misrepresent the problem or intentionally hide the real root cause - like they dropped the product, or immersed in in salt water, and they want it fixed or replaced, or they claim it never arrived so they can effectively steal it. These interactions are rare, but they do occur. The situation is exacerbated for batteries since a damaged battery cannot be returned to the vendor, or the cost of returning a product is high enough to make the customer very unhappy and the vendor reluctant to pay. Vendors are also people, and they have their good and bad days. People also make mistakes, and learn from them, and hopefully improve. If they don't it will affect their business.

From what we have seen, the vendor has been improving. They have invested in more testing equipment and chosen more conservative numbers for their battery capacity. A battery from that vendor that I accidentally ran hard to flat met the capacity ratings. In general I try not to test that, it is not good for the pack.

Seeing what amounts to a never ending tirade in a signature that represents what is effectively an opinion about an event from a situation taken out of context seems inappropriate. These discussions should take place in a thread, not a one-sided broadcast in a sig. There are a few of them here on ES. There are many positive sigs, the negatives are few. But there is no way for a vendor to appropriately respond to the negatives in a sig. There's only the one person to be judge, and no jury. There's no context. I agree that we should have the discourse, just not in a sig. Perhaps the sig could contain a link to the thread. But the vendor and his customers must be allowed to respond, and isolated events should slide into history. The process should be the same for all vendors.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this, and the effort to make ES a better place.
 
I stopped sharing my builds here due to the lingering trollish replies from a handful of users. If your hobby starts to turn into a business, I see those users seeing it as their green light to blast out negative opinions, even when not founded in fact.
 
Alan & DD, thanks for your reasoned, interesting and informed responses. In general ES has been an excellent repository for ideas and critiques and helped me immensely. That is with the exception of individuals who seem to have personal vendettas against a manufacturer but have never purchased a product from that vendor (one claims to have made a purchase, but doesn't supply any purchase or usage information AFAICT). I've had excellent service, extremely good products and more than fair prices from this vendor. If that makes me a fan boy, so be it. More than anything I dislike arrogance.
 
Re:rborger's post-for anyone who cares about this forum, this post should raise concern. The environment and it's inhabitants determine the post quality, and quality of posters. The more poison dumped in the lake, the fewer fish stick around....

Guys like etrike are good to have around in a forum, helps avoid the problem of "group think." The problem is the abrasiveness often drives away good posters. Calling Eric's movie reference a threat is hilarious. I guess I'm glad not to be the one to balance these issues out. Outright calling Eric a liar at every turn is wrong. Further, it might make a good legal case-I've seen it before on other forums. That much should be clear, I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed.
 
2old said:
Alan & DD, thanks for your reasoned, interesting and informed responses. In general ES has been an excellent repository for ideas and critiques and helped me immensely. That is with the exception of individuals who seem to have personal vendettas against a manufacturer but have never purchased a product from that vendor (one claims to have made a purchase, but doesn't supply any purchase or usage information AFAICT). I've had excellent service, extremely good products and more than fair prices from this vendor. If that makes me a fan boy, so be it. More than anything I dislike arrogance.
Not everyone has, so why fight? Jeebus let it go...
 
As an avid community member can you share your recent battery comparison videos? The info would benefit the community and rebut the smear.
Green Machine said:
I been an avid member of this community for years.
If there is better battery pack out their than ours at a better price or better quality than please write a fair review or comparisom.
 
Their are a few bad seeds that are poisoning this group that is for sure. And frankly it's sad to see.

Etrike has never bought a product from my company.

He is an obvious troll .

He can't seem to provide proof for any of his claims.

I have never paid anyone to post for me.

I been an avid member of this community for years.

I don't deserve to be called a liar on any public forum
And I would wonder how any of my heroes here would react to the brash personal and business attacks I have endured on this forum that I through the years have helped build including serving as a mod.


I am running a small usa business luna cycle that is nothing more than a small business that I believe has good intentions.....way way more than just making a buck.
 
Rube said:
As an avid community member can you share your recent battery comparison videos? The info would benefit the community and rebut the smear.
Green Machine said:
I been an avid member of this community for years.
If there is better battery pack out their than ours at a better price or better quality than please write a fair review or comparisom.

You mean the live video we did on fast electric bike Facebook? Yeah sure we have a more complete video I will be posting of that on YouTube when I get back from China.
 
Green Machine said:
I don't deserve to be called a liar on any public forum
No, you don't. Someone's sig making such an assertion, even with links to many long threads, is out of line in any basic community standard sort of way. Self appointed market police are out of line in any basic community standard sort of way too.

While pointers to first hand data about negative aspects are appreciated, relaying telephone style messages about what is in that data is not.
 
this thread sound's like the personal vendetta thread that got locked?. actual proof of wrongdoing would be nice otherwise it is just he said she said. I do not care as i have no stake in this game. sad for ES though. good luck all and good day. :D If i offend anyone sorry as that is not my intention, just expressing a opinion.
 
How is it that you are the only one coming off as a jerk in all this Nel , you will be the first time I used the ignore list feature of this forum, been tempted before but never really had to do it. I look forward to not seeing you around,
 
This is complete rubbish and half of it I have no idea what he is talking about. But either back it up or stop slandering... name names please. Without facts it is drivel. If you have something to prove I am evil please post it and under your own name.

And yes there is a group of big dealers exchanging emails and collecting personal emails of mine . These dealers are furious with me for wrecking price points etc..... I am happy to name them all. Hit me with the worst thing I have said or done.

And I am happy to go out in the open with what I have experienced as a new dealer....and how in the beginning I was bullied and needled by the big diy dealers to raise my prices.....I too have plenty of proof. Now I am the bulky how did that happen?

I watched for years dealers in my country charge ridiculous prices and re brand
....and the secret hush hush.... even when I wrote about
some of it on electricbike.com I was shunned
.... by the way spinning magnets and I built electric bike
Com for years from nothing . Ron never got paid a dime and I never wanted anything but my voice to be heard.
I am not in this hobby for money.

I started a store because I was sick of seeing community members gouged.....sorry.....I know what a mac motor or a mxuss 3000 kit, or any cheap hub kit should cost

It was either Alibaba or it was someone in our community....I decided to step up and start a store. I am very proud of luna cycle it is my baby and I am proud of the new standards we are setting in pricing and innovation. This Bulls hi it right here ruins everything for me.....makes me miserable..honestly es... I started luna for you guys.

For the record I have offered Justin 25k which is what he paid for es as a business decision (I personally advised him his purchase was sound business move during the whole ordeal) ...I respect Justin as Shrewd competent business man.. I recently offered him 25k to set endless sphere free and turn it over to a group of fair moderators chosen by the commity. That on the other hand is not a Shrewd decision.
 
And for God's sake bring Amber wolf back..
..he was the only great moderator
....totally unbiased.... awesome..

And I say that and I know he hates my guts


In fact I offer to buy es and donate it to Amber wolf and ,fechter do what they want with it.... merry xmas

Why fechter? Cuz everyone knows who really knows he built and has always run this place.

And I am not rich and not wal mart or some other bs and I made my money in other areas not ebike.... but i have this hate for Money and what it does to people... like any new business is usa we are struggling to compete in difficult market. I see now why new ebike companies fail in usa....it's like pedaling up a mountain with a 250 watt motor and shit battery with your peers throwing shit at you.
 
Greenmachine, keep up all you do to advance the e-bike movement. You are making it affordable for the average joe. remember hater's gonna hate. You have plenty of people in your corner. And no i have never purchased anything from luna, bought 2 dd motor's from dogman's boss jason kraft of E-bike.com. Good day and good luck. And as alway's i do not mean to offend anyone. Just expressing my opinion if that is still allowed here ?.
 
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