Turn/Signal lights for E-bikes

Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
383
Hi,
Going quite fast raises the need for those, along with brake-light which I already have.
I saw an idea by ebikes.ca that uses two of their rear LED lights, but those blink too fast to be understood as a signal light when far behind.
Do you know a turn-key product you can recommend?
It should blink at the frequency of car's blinkers, should have clear and big lights spaced far apart (arrows would be even nicer), and the best - if I could power it from my battery voltage instead of having the need to spend on extra DC-DC converter.
 
MadRhino said:
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/281868491652?_mwBanner=1

Nice product!
Do you think it can accept 80V? (86V hot off the charger).
I wonder when they say "24V 36V 48V 60V UNIVERSAL" if it can also accept it?
Do you have it yourself?
If so - Does it come with a SPDT switch? How is the illumination level?
 
See teklektik's thread about these things; he has wiring diagrams, parts lists, etc. Easy to find if you search his posts.


If you wanna DIY it you can also do it like I did; I don't have parts lists or diagrams, just pics in my build threads for the various bikes/trikes.

Mostly I use existing motorcycle signals and tail/brake stuff, some incandescent, some LED, some IC converted to LED using aquarium lights (cuz they're water resistant), and an "LED compatible" turn signal flasher from autozone or wherever. Any on-off-on switch (like a 3-speed switch) can be used as a turn signal switch, or you can get good ones for motorcycle/scooter use from the web or junkyards, etc. I used one from a scooter for CrazyBike2, and a 3-speed switch off a FUsin kit for SB Cruiser.

LED stuff I power using old wallwart ac adapters for 14-15v output. Incandescent I use a 4s NMC battery.
 
The one thing none of the commercial systems address is that small lights look far away, and thus are unimportant to worry about to many drivers. It's not a conscious choice--it's trained in by perspective of viewing.

The closer things are, the bigger they look, so the bigger something is, the closer it looks, especially if it is a familiar shape that your brain already "knows" is a certain size. If your brain doesn't recognize the shape, it'll simply assume that bigger is closer until proven otherwise.

So at night, when teh lights are teh only part of the bike a driver sees, if they're tiny then the driver's brain files it as something to worry about later, becuase it's obviously pretty far down the road, when actually they're approaching them really fast as it's pretty close.

If a driver is paying strict attention then they can override this "hindbrain decision", but many are not; they're distracted by other traffic, roadside advertising, people or things in tehir own vehicle, stuff they're thinking about, people they're on the phone with, etc.

If the lights are larger, each around the size of your open but not outstretched hand or larger, then they appear close enough that the "hindbrain decision" is to keep that in the forefront of things to worry about soon if not now, and forces conscious attention to be paid to the object the lights are on, which means avoidance is possible.


It doesn't really matter how *bright* the lights are, as long as they are visible, though brighter can appear closer if it's also larger, brighter "pinpoints" are still small and thus automatically determined to be farther away until shown otherwise.



There are other considerations for how the brain determines distance, but size of known shapes is the first one most work by automatically.
 
amberwolf said:
The one thing none of the commercial systems address is that small lights look far away, and thus are unimportant to worry about to many drivers. It's not a conscious choice--it's trained in by perspective of viewing.

The closer things are, the bigger they look, so the bigger something is, the closer it looks, especially if it is a familiar shape that your brain already "knows" is a certain size. If your brain doesn't recognize the shape, it'll simply assume that bigger is closer until proven otherwise.

So at night, when teh lights are teh only part of the bike a driver sees, if they're tiny then the driver's brain files it as something to worry about later, becuase it's obviously pretty far down the road, when actually they're approaching them really fast as it's pretty close.

If a driver is paying strict attention then they can override this "hindbrain decision", but many are not; they're distracted by other traffic, roadside advertising, people or things in tehir own vehicle, stuff they're thinking about, people they're on the phone with, etc.

If the lights are larger, each around the size of your open but not outstretched hand or larger, then they appear close enough that the "hindbrain decision" is to keep that in the forefront of things to worry about soon if not now, and forces conscious attention to be paid to the object the lights are on, which means avoidance is possible.


It doesn't really matter how *bright* the lights are, as long as they are visible, though brighter can appear closer if it's also larger, brighter "pinpoints" are still small and thus automatically determined to be farther away until shown otherwise.



There are other considerations for how the brain determines distance, but size of known shapes is the first one most work by automatically.

Those big huge LED brake/turn ones you used, IIRC you got them at an auto parts place? I'll have to read back through that section of when you put those on, they looked massive and very very safe.
 
If you mean the big round ones? No, those are traffic lights for stop signals. :)

They came from All Electronics in California:
https://www.allelectronics.com/item/rtl-2/red-led-traffic-stop-light-120-vac-used/1.html
and are a foot across, so about the same size as many car and truck taillights.

I don't actually have them mounted on the trike; they're going to go on the detachable light bar for the various trailers I use. First I have to do something to work around the 115VAC power supply requirement. I have a number of ideas on that, but it's not something most people will want to deal with, so these aren't for everyone (even if they have the desire for lights this large :lol: ).


The trike is using two originally-incandescent taillgihts off Hondas (one scooter, one motorcycle, but by coincidence identical). I took the sockets out and lined the interior with 12V LED strips' it's brighter, more evenly illuminated, and takes less power. These are both tail and brake. They're each about the same rear surface area as my hand. They also are a couple of inches "deep" with all of that surface area illuminated as well, so they can be seen from any angle from any position that's behind or beside (or even above) them.

They also have a completely clear lens on the bottom, to let the lights inside illuminate a license plate on the vehicles they came from. For me, that lights up the road behind and beside the trike (though not nearly as much as the light on the rack in ffront of the taillgithing bar, whcih lights teh entire cargo area and deck and surrounding road, making the entire trike look much larger as it goes down the road (and thus more "worth looking at" to the brain).

Then between them there's a "third brakeligth" from a car or truck (like in or above the rear window); it is incandescent as I didn't have enough LED strips to fill it at teh time (I probably do now).



FWIW, long strips of lights can have as much surface area, but it's not in the shape most people are "trained" to look for so they don't immediately judge things based on it--the closest thing they usually see is roadside advertising / store signs, which are stationary and not on the road so their brain may choose to completely ignore it until it becomes obvious it's actually on the road and brings it to conscious attention to deal with it.

So you can do as several people here on ES ahve done, and add long waterproof LED strips to the seatstays and fork (and downtube, etc).

I have white strips on the "downtube" of the trike and CrazyBIke2, and though these are visible from teh front, they are really there to light up the road around me so I look bigger. (it works--at night, drivers pass farther away from me when it's turned on, and both follow and pass closer when it's off.
 
IMO many of the single-assembly bike lights with batteries are unsuitable for use in real traffic because of lack of spread between turn indicators, poor side visibility, and general unfamiliar look to other drivers.

I favor standard truck/trailer parts (tail/brake light) or motorcycle components (turn signals) and prefer the old school domed turn signals to give side visibility. These are all DOT or clones of DOT lights, are bright, readily available, and familiar to drivers. Motorcycle lights are available with stalks that allow them to be mounted up to something like an aluminum or plastic (Hammond) project box, simple U-bracket, or clamped to a stay. The motorcycle guys figured this out a long time ago, might as well use their stuff...

Here's a shot from one bike with working tail lights and brake lights. When not braking, the brake light strobes - if it's bright enough for a DOT truck turn signal, there should be no question about visibility... A LED forward running light runs from the same strobe module. Wiring and electrical parts are described here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75171


17_sampleLightAssyMounted2.jpg
 
amberwolf said:
If you mean the big round ones? No, those are traffic lights for stop signals. :)

They came from All Electronics in California:
https://www.allelectronics.com/item/rtl-2/red-led-traffic-stop-light-120-vac-used/1.html
and are a foot across, so about the same size as many car and truck taillights.
[...]
First I have to do something to work around the 115VAC power supply requirement.

In my experience, most household LED lights work fine on DC (they rectify AC internally) and are relatively versatile on voltage. I have used screw base LED bulbs as backlights for illuminated sign trikes, running directly from 36V batteries.

Anyway, you might try plugging one of those traffic light things into an e-bike battery and see what you get.
 
Chalo said:
Anyway, you might try plugging one of those traffic light things into an e-bike battery and see what you get.

I did that experiment when I got them ;)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&p=1249037&hilit=allelectronics#p1249037

And they do operate off of it, but not as brightly.

The catch is the trailer operates solely off of the "12v" lighting system, and there's no more pins in the connector to run another voltage.

Even if there were, the rest of the trike/trailer's brake and turn and whatnot signals all operate off the "12v", including the little switch in the brake lever, etc. So I'd have to build a relay system to operate these as anything more than just taillights, if run from the traction battery. (I'd probably need the relay system anyway, since I want them to change brightness and they're not designed for that).

Additionally, if I want to use them as brake lights and/or turn signals as well as taillights, something has to be changed to allow the brightness to change. Even if it is just altering the internal PSU to increase the current to the LEDs during blinking/braking.

It's a simple unit, so I can probably figure it out to do the modification
file.php
 
I say wire the taillights into the main battery pack with a dropping resistor or a series of rectifier bridges to lower the voltage for taillights, then use a load-insensitive flasher relay to bypass the voltage dropper, for blinkers. Even at partial intensity, those things must be big and bright enough for the job.
 
I've used the diode-drop method before, with a little LED taillight (hitchcover light from HF), bypassing (shorting across) the diodes via the brake lever switch. So I know the method will work.

I do wanna see if I can get this thing to work on low-voltage entirely instead if possible, so I don't have to run a whole separate cable to the trailer just for these vs teh other 12v lighting that's on there.
 
Seeing as teklektik's bike is also a Yuba cargo bike like the one I have he provides an easy road map for me to accomplish improved rear lighting on mine (always thought his bike was a lovely build I might mention). I do like those massive traffic lights Amberwolf came up with though, IMO there is no overkill when it comes to making yourself visible to drunken, distracted, texting, watching movie on dashboard screen, looking at kids in the backseat etc etc drivers that frequent the road systems nowadays.
 
amberwolf said:
I do wanna see if I can get this thing to work on low-voltage entirely instead if possible, so I don't have to run a whole separate cable to the trailer just for these vs teh other 12v lighting that's on there.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Boost-DC-DC-Converter-Power-Supply-Step-up-Module-12V-60V-to-12V-80V-600W-10A/231572940208
 
I appreciate the link...but aside from having better things to spend money on ;) I'd rather not be using two converters in a row. I'm pretty sure I can work out a simple way to do this with teh low voltage... .
 
turn signals on any bicycle only make sense if they are placed apart like 2 feet, has amber/yellow colour and blink like car turn signals.
placing them too close is confusing for drivers.
 
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