Golden Motor Build 48v and Beyond!

[icecube57]

Ok If you dont remeber me .. I was the guy that butchered a Wilderness Energy BD-36 and a 409 Brushed Clyte Motor. One dued a hot smokey horruble death. The other was ressurected twice from thermal meltdowns before i ran a normal setup and then sold the bike cause papa had some bills to pay. Im now back. Not with alternative transportation in mind but for a conservative build to ride two or three times a week for 20-30 miles for exercise or a day trip to a remote park and see the sights. Here is what I have in mind for my new setup.

I plan to do another Full Suspension Bike. Or Front Suspension because their forks tend to be beefier. Trying to stay away from pinched tube Wally World specials. I will probably use Craigslist to find a donor bike so i can spend more on my batteries.

I will be using a Bafang motor. I read great things about them on the forum but havent decided If Im going to do the steel gear mod. My setup wont be that extreme.

My contruller will be one of the Infenion. Im looking for one that is 36-72v capeable with 25A limit. This should be a simple and easy request from him. He has many to match my needs. I chose it because alot of planning and trial and error went into making those controllers for the bafang and puma motor. Its tried and true and looking forward to posting another good review for that fine craftsmanship.

Im want to run a 60-72v setup because I want flexibility. Im a big guy. I want two packs. I havent decided if i wanted to do a 36-24v modular setup or 36v-36v. If i go with the 36-24 setup I will have money to get a 15AH setup if i got 36v-36v I will be limited to 10AH.But on the 36v-36v setup I can run a series parallel setup with the circuit i built to change on the fly for speed and torque or distance. I want a setup like this because I really dont require that much assistance but i want to have the flexibility for changing terrain.

If I decide to do the 36v-24v Setup i will probably purchase a Watts up meter... they are good up to 68v. If i do a 36v-36v setup. I have no choice but to use the cycle analyst.

Im looking into getting Lifepo4 batts. That can do 20-25A contiuous but have a decent peak value because some controllers are hardheaded and tend to spike beyond their rated value. I so do not want to deal with a bms tripping over some BS like that. If anyone knows a reputable vendor let me know. Im scouring ebay but their ductape batts are supposed rated for what i need and the price is right. I figure if they can handle 20-30 A alone then in a parallel setup they could handle a little bit more but Im counting on the controller to limit me to 20-25A. So if anyone can agree with a 1.5C dischar on a 15AH pack is safe i will purchase a set but if not it may blow my battery budget but i dont mind being a guiena pig.

I havent decided if i wanted to do a solely front wheel setup or do a 26 front an 24 bafang rear to get that extra bit of torque and consume a little less power. How do you think it would work out?

Those are my thoughts for now. Money is in hand. Ive been out of the game a while and looking for input before final purchase and bids are in place.

[icecube57]

Also if this peanut butter gear thing is making me doubt the decision to use bafang in this build. How hard is it to replace one gear in the bafang. Ive taken my old BD36 apart dozens of times. Is it a simple... pop off one cover and replace one gear or is full disassembly required. I might possibly just do a 48v 20AH lipo battery and consider it the peak for a stock setup. It should do 25mph easy

I considiering th $98 dollar GM special as an alternative. It will certainly be better than a BL36 for the same buiid.

[dogman]

Not trying to steer you away from a bafang, I am looking at em too, but You might want to try a regular gearless brushless motor first. A 406 rear hub, and a 48v 20 ah pingbattery should get you into the high twenties for speed, and go about 20 or more miles at full throttle. Or the bafang on the same battery if that is fast enough for your. Stay away from duct tape batteries that have round cells, thats all of em exept ping, who uses a superior prismatic cell. My aotema motor is similar to a 406 or 407, and I can easily maintain 15 mph up a mile of 10% hill with it running at 36v. I know what you mean about the brushed motors, I smoked a bd36 and a heinzmann myself in the last year. In any case, the brushless motors make a lot less heat, so a 406 at 60v won't be as likely to smoke as a gearmotor at the same voltage. I think the gearmotors really need to stay in the lower voltages for long rides. I think the gearmotors can get hotter when pushed than the gearless brushless. The length of ride makes a difference, heat is real important with longer rides.

[icecube57]

If ic could get a bafang with 1 metal gear or all metal gears shipped to me for 3-350 buck i would be all over it like stank on snit. But thats in a wet dream and we live in reality. 406 in a 20 inch rim would be perfect but Imma big guy so 24-26 inch rim is a must. but a 406 at 60vwould be like a 4011 running at 36v in a 26 inch wheel The GM looks good if i dont get one used like some people have gotten. It has moderate mass for the voltage and amps i would be giving it. A dual wound clyte isnt bad either but i dont wanny pay dual wound pricing for motor an controller either with apparent change in torque or speed fron what i read. Im not looking for performance. Just assitance ride length and slightly above pedaling speed. So I might just consider a GM and a 48v 20AH battery and a 20A controller. That could easily get 30-40 miles on the terrian that im riding on. Which smooth paved small rolling hills but level for the most part. The cheaper ductapes are good fo 20A according to. specs and not pushing the limits to much

[icecube57]

Just did some Wally World Shopping and found this bike.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... d=10088399

I think this will be my donor bike. But unfortunately with this bike its front disc rear caliper.
So it makes a front hub motor kinda out of the question if i wanna keep the disc. Then i gotta find a rear motor that can accept a 7 speed free wheel.

Does a GM ship a 7 speed rear motor?

I might go to Earl at the PowerRideStore and pick up a 408/4011 dual speed rear Clyte.

[icecube57]

I just bought a ductape pack buy it now for 519 with free shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LiFePO4-48v-20ah-BA ... 7C294%3A50

Can someone advise what size controller would be safe for this pack. 48v obviously. But how many amps. It says 40A continuous but what are the odds that it will live up to that.

[icecube57]

Ok so after searching all day for motors for my budget and for the intended donor bike. I settled on a GM. Good news is i got a kit for a half decent price and its a US Dealer in Arizona. I called them and they are nice and friendly. Bad news is I cant buy a rear with a 7 sprocket free wheel otherwise I have to dish the motor. Im good at getting a wheel straight and wobble free but I dont know S#!+ about dishing it to make it line up. So i bought a front kit. 48v 1000w Model. Comes with the usal crap.

The kit includes motorized wheel,motor controller,speed throttle, power break lever, wire harness. For $325 Batts not included. The controller should be a 35-40A controller according to the motor specs on the GM it should peak at 38A and 1800w on their 48v setup. My lipo pack will be pushed to its high limit. Hope it doesnt trip. ive never had a true 20AH pack. I used to butcher my old SLA 36-60v setup and only got 7.5AH @ 15M range out of the 12AH SLA. Makes me wonder what my range should be now. Now im a little fluffier. So it should atleast be double but thats hoping for a little much.... Now off to find a Watts Up Meter.

Looking at new bikes as we speak. Aparrently all the people I see that use GM on the front use the pinched tube forks. So im assuming it should be pretty ok to use. Considering my walmart only had one bike that had the drop outs pictured on my previously selected bike

[dogman]

The pinched tube forks work ok for me. That is, for just street riding. If you need some clearance, just pinch em some more, there is nothing to worry about in the first few inches of fork. I don't think many of the wallbike steel forks even the ones with a welded on dropout are much different inside, or have more than 40 mm of travel. I don't have experience with goldens, but you should be getting about .9 mile out of each amp hour. So somewhere in the 20 -25 mile area should be your range at full throttle. Unless your round cell pack only delivers 15 ah, as some have.

[Hyena]

As always, dont forget the torque arms!
I have ~5mm thick steel welded drop outs on my cheap bike and my forks and I had the displeasure of parting company with my 500w 36v GM at around 20mph

See the pic in my sig (no it's not me, but same end result )

[biohazardman]

As always, dont forget the torque arms!
I have ~5mm thick steel welded drop outs on my cheap bike and my forks and I had the displeasure of parting company with my 500w 36v GM at around 20mph

See the pic in my sig (no it's not me, but same end result )

Ouch! Looks like he may have fergot to unplug the extension cord? That is ugly and why I only do rear motors. Don't want to join yer club either I be to old to recover from that kind of punishment. Have several torq bars and soon two will be on the new build.

[linear]

See the pic in my sig (no it's not me, but same end result )

That doesn't look like fun. Perfect timing on the camera shot to catch that.

[Hyena]

The picture looks like it's actually a screen grab from a video, but yeah good timing.

[The Stig]

I just bought a ductape pack buy it now for 519 with free shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LiFePO4-48v-20ah-BA ... 7C294%3A50

Can someone advise what size controller would be safe for this pack. 48v obviously. But how many amps. It says 40A continuous but what are the odds that it will live up to that.

I looked at the ebay listing and it says the free shipping is with surface mail. Just making sure you know because that takes 1-2months or something.

[icecube57]

I paid the extra $50 for shipping for the 5-7 days. The seller told me and advised that i get the upgraded shipping.

The GM guy here at http://arizonaebikes.com/default.aspx Emailed me and said that they just finished testing and it will ship out Thursday. He is the only USA dealer I know of and if there are any issues you deal with him instead of GM so its a little extra comfort that i dont have to do cross seas shipping if i have problems.

I also went bike shipping again. Back in wally world with my trusty magnet to check forks. I said earlier that I had problems with my first bike pick because of the disc brake. I went to the store to see if i could remove the disk brake or possibly swap the front and rear. The rear hub doesnt have attachments for a disk and the rear calipers wont fit on the front without serious modification. The bracket for front calipers is there but they arent drilled for the hardware. I just decided to find another setup with two caliper brakes and this is my second choice for my build in the pictures below. The bike is $108 USD. What about these drop outs. Dogman do you have any input with these style forks. I think the motor should clear fine. The BD-36 is wider than the Golden Motor I think. Thats my update for now. Look forward to your comments and input.

[biohazardman]

I paid the extra $50 for shipping for the 5-7 days. The seller told me and advised that i get the upgraded shipping.

The GM guy here at http://arizonaebikes.com/default.aspx Emailed me and said that they just finished testing and it will ship out Thursday. He is the only USA dealer I know of and if there are any issues you deal with him instead of GM so its a little extra comfort that i dont have to do cross seas shipping if i have problems.

I also went bike shipping again. Back in wally world with my trusty magnet to check forks. I said earlier that I had problems with my first bike pick because of the disc brake. I went to the store to see if i could remove the disk brake or possibly swap the front and rear. The rear hub doesnt have attachments for a disk and the rear calipers wont fit on the front without serious modification. The bracket for front calipers is there but they arent drilled for the hardware. I just decided to find another setup with two caliper brakes and this is my second choice for my build in the pictures below. The bike is $108 USD. What about these drop outs. Dogman do you have any input with these style forks. I think the motor should clear fine. The BD-36 is wider than the Golden Motor I think. Thats my update for now. Look forward to your comments and input.

Not dogman but. Remembert the faceplant! One inch steerer tube and a stamped/pressed together steel sheetmetal fork. Is that what I am looking at? Build as though yer life depends upon it. Especially if you like the person that will be riding it.

[dogman]

Those look like the same forks I've been riding for 2300 miles now, 25 mph over big bumps, etc. I sure did a faceplant when I put a waterbottle in the forks, but that wasn't the forks, it was the bottle mount location on the bikeframe.

There are two kinds of these cheap forks. One kind has an aluminum piece with the steel parts pressed in, as you describe. The other, cheaper one, has all steel, and it's welded. That is what I am using, and I trust it , with 600 watts. Shitty 40 mm travel so it's a dog on dirt trails, but for street bumps it is adequate. I dissected a rusted out one once to see how strong it is at the drops. The answer is plenty strong. The rest of it at the top with the steer tube is all welded so the cheapies are the strongest. I dissected one to be sure the upper and lower fork tubes wouldn't just seperate some day. They wont, without a cutting torch or grinder. There will be an amazing ammount of flex forward and back, especially when braking, that seems to be harmless.

I still don't understand how a moderately expensive fork with an 1 1/8" steel steer tube pressed into an aluminum part is stronger than a 1" steel steer tube pressed into a similar aluminum part. I would accept the argument that both are risky. I still say braking forces are far greater than motor pull. Forces on the dropouts are a different thing alltogether. I like the really cheap ones that are all steel, top to bottom.

On the subject of the dropouts. The squashed tube cheapie forks have exceptionally strong dropouts. I don't have torque arms, and belive I don't need them at 600 watts. The only issue is that a big hub motor will not fit in the space between them. Smaller hubs, such as WE and Chrystalyte 408 can fit, but the forks have to be put in a vise, and squashed some more. There is a how to thread with pics on that. Fitting hubmotors to cheap steel suspension forks, or something like that is the title. I've not touched a golden motor, but I belive there is room for one after some squashing if they are bigger diameter than a WE motor.

One additional thought, Of the cheap stuff on that mongoose bike that is close to identical to mine, Only the front crank and the tires seemed cheap and wore out on my bike. If you do have a choice at the retail store, look for the 48 tooth front sprocket, most will be 44. The 48 tooth allows pedaling at a higher speed, about 25 mph. Everything else seems to be lasting, the rear derailur is fine, brakes are fine, most likely because I tuned the bike before riding very far. From the store, it's likey to be all out of whack. And the tires seem to wear out fast. I have heard of the swingarm wearing out fast, and bottom brackets, but I'm good with 2300 miles on this one. I was figuring on a bike change every 1500 miles or so on such cheap bikes, but so far so good. Once again, here's the pic of mine. For fork closeups, see the hightekbikes.com review in that section of the forum.

58 TOOTH CRANK small pic.jpg (83.96 KiB) Viewed 1157 times

[biohazardman]

Those look like the same forks I've been riding for 2300 miles now, 25 mph over big bumps, etc. I sure did a faceplant when I put a waterbottle in the forks, but that wasn't the forks, it was the bottle mount location on the bikeframe.

There are two kinds of these cheap forks. One kind has an aluminum piece with the steel parts pressed in, as you describe. The other, cheaper one, has all steel, and it's welded. That is what I am using, and I trust it , with 600 watts. Shitty 40 mm travel so it's a dog on dirt trails, but for street bumps it is adequate. I dissected a rusted out one once to see how strong it is at the drops. The answer is plenty strong. The rest of it at the top with the steer tube is all welded so the cheapies are the strongest. I dissected one to be sure the upper and lower fork tubes wouldn't just seperate some day. They wont, without a cutting torch or grinder. There will be an amazing ammount of flex forward and back, especially when braking, that seems to be harmless.

I still don't understand how a moderately expensive fork with an 1 1/8" steel steer tube pressed into an aluminum part is stronger than a 1" steel steer tube pressed into a similar aluminum part. I would accept the argument that both are risky. I still say braking forces are far greater than motor pull. Forces on the dropouts are a different thing alltogether. I like the really cheap ones that are all steel, top to bottom.

On the subject of the dropouts. The squashed tube cheapie forks have exceptionally strong dropouts. I don't have torque arms, and belive I don't need them at 600 watts. The only issue is that a big hub motor will not fit in the space between them. Smaller hubs, such as WE and Chrystalyte 408 can fit, but the forks have to be put in a vise, and squashed some more. There is a how to thread with pics on that. Fitting hubmotors to cheap steel suspension forks, or something like that is the title. I've not touched a golden motor, but I belive there is room for one after some squashing if they are bigger diameter than a WE motor.

One additional thought, Of the cheap stuff on that mongoose bike that is close to identical to mine, Only the front crank and the tires seemed cheap and wore out on my bike. If you do have a choice at the retail store, look for the 48 tooth front sprocket, most will be 44. The 48 tooth allows pedaling at a higher speed, about 25 mph. Everything else seems to be lasting, the rear derailur is fine, brakes are fine, most likely because I tuned the bike before riding very far. From the store, it's likey to be all out of whack. And the tires seem to wear out fast. I have heard of the swingarm wearing out fast, and bottom brackets, but I'm good with 2300 miles on this one. I was figuring on a bike change every 1500 miles or so on such cheap bikes, but so far so good. Once again, here's the pic of mine. For fork closeups, see the hightekbikes.com review in that section of the forum.

58 TOOTH CRANK small pic.jpg

58 tooth crank ring! Such a deal. Best I could fit on mine was a 53 and that's a real close fit I might ad. Got like 1/16th gap to the triangle to get the chain centered. Front wheel drive is scary looking to me. Just thinking of a faceplant almost puts me in the hospital. Good you could recover to ride again. ;^)

[dogman]

It took a lot of lurking on ebay to find that thing. Bear State something or other was the vendor, but I never saw any more posted. The cheap bikes have a long bb for some reason. The road bike cranks, 52 tooth, I tried wouldn't work, but this ring was made for a mtb crank, and miraculously, one of my 10 buck parts bikes had the one that matched. I can still peadle with usable force up to 32 mph. Mostly I ride in cog 6 now in the back instead of the 7th. If I ever get 48v it will be a perfect fit for riding about 30 mph. But maybe with a rear hub for that speed? The current setup is normaly ridden at about 23 mph.

I finally figured out where the pic was, duuh, Looks more like a frame faliure than a fork. But the result is the same. I remember seeing George Hincape have a similar problem with his carbon handlebar stem in the paris roubaix cobbles. Suddenly he's holding totally useless handlebars in his hands. For sure on ebikes, heavy is good. Steel is your freind, it tends to bend some before failure. I look my bike over often.

[nicobie]

I finally found the guy with cranksets and chain rings up to 60t. Prices don't seem too out of line either.

Nick

http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/parts/crank/crank.html

[Russell]

The BIGGEST front chainring I have on any bike is the 42 on my ebike combined with a 12-32 cassette. I also have a low speed motor so I travel at average cycling speeds (~15.6 mph on 36V) just a bit higher than I did before converting the bike. Still I maintain a high cadence of around 90 RPM for a theorectical top speed with my gearing of ~25 mph. I can spin higher however to at least 30 mph without too much trouble if the grade and the wind are favorable. If I'm moving above that speed, which is quite rare, it means I'm decending a steep hill so there's little reason to pedal. My cadence compared to many ebikers is high but for a true cyclist it's about the average.

-R

[icecube57]

After lurking in the X-Marts on my side of town... I couldnt find anything I like....well i found plenty that i liked just doesnt meet ebike specs. I went to the next city over and Wally world had selections galore. There was this one bastard child bike that was sitting off to the side. Reduced 35%?? maybe this was last seasons bike they were trying to get rid of. I didnt see anything wrong with it. Rolled it around the store. Turned the crank and shifted the gears... Everything is well with it. I took it to the register. It wouldnt ring up. The lady smiled and manually put in the number. $108.98 It rung up as $118. I grinned and went on my merry way thinking I scored. Its has aluminum body. Steel Fork. Steel swing arm. Full Suspension. It has front disc brake. V-brake on rear. It has the same type of fork that my Schwinn S-30 had. So thats solid. To get around the disc brake problem on the front fork Im going to uninstall it. I found a bike shop that sold the old school spring loaded calipers. There is a small hole on my fork to put one. It doesnt have the post for V-brakes that why I have to use this style brake. It has to be drilled out a little bit because of paint build up to accomade the bolt for the new brakes but this allows me to remove the disc brake and install the motor and still have front and rear brakes. Im a happy camper. I hope you'll approve.

[Russell]

Pretty amazing price considering the WHEELS alone on my bike cost more than that and they are pretty basic


-R

[dogman]

Nice, that's the one that usually is around $170. I assume that's all steel, it looks like it. The innards of that fork won't be much different than the squash tube ones. So swapping out the fork for one with brake posts is an easy option when you find one at the garage sale, or ebay cheap. The dropouts are nicer, but the fork itelf doesn't perform better in that price range. Another option is the bulldog brakes sold at electricrider. The ones you have look like they came off a roadmaster, $60 new bike so they may be bendy. Looks like it will work fine to me, but I'd keep any front motor down to 48v myself. 60 volts on the front forks does spook me. It's bound to be out of tune, shift indexing is usually bad unless the wally world actually has a bike guy doing the assembly. Just fiddle with stuff till it improves.

[Hyena]

That appears to be the exact bike I have my GM on! (HERE)
I too scoured the local shops looking for a aluminium frame steel forked bike with disc brakes (the wider forks with disc brake bikes are generally need to clear the GM hub.) I scored a great deal on mine as well, reduced down from $300 to $120 !

I was going to bolt on a front V brake adapter, then I looked at swapping the forks, then I tried regen braking, which worked for a few minutes but then ripped the motor from the forks - so don't try that if you're tempted! A few months later I'm still riding around with no front brakes so I'm interested to hear how you get on with that bolt on one.

[The Stig]

That appears to be the exact bike I have my GM on! (HERE)
I too scoured the local shops looking for a aluminium frame steel forked bike with disc brakes (the wider forks with disc brake bikes are generally need to clear the GM hub.) I scored a great deal on mine as well, reduced down from $300 to $120 !

I was going to bolt on a front V brake adapter, then I looked at swapping the forks, then I tried regen braking, which worked for a few minutes but then ripped the motor from the forks - so don't try that if you're tempted! A few months later I'm still riding around with no front brakes so I'm interested to hear how you get on with that bolt on one.

No torque arms????