Golden Motor Build 48v and Beyond!

[icecube57]

I blew up 2 controllers in the past two months. Learning from my mistakes I ordered 1 more and keywin gave me the shaft. He didnt ship me the new 116 MCU controller. He sent me the older 72v 45A model. I was pissed. It wasnt pimped out at all. At the very least I could have got a CA connector. I requested one in the paypal email. He shipped me a Plain Jane Stock!

I took a deep breathe and got out the iron. I looked at the Infineon Dummy threads and other Technical info on this model controller.

I did the R12 mod. The original Tested at 1120 ohms. I soldered some 1/4 resistors together and soldered them to the tap points under the PCB of the controller. I got it down to 805. This gives me a 1.391 factor when I go to program my lvc.

The programming cable Keywin sent me on a previous order was screwed too. Every wire was in the wrong spot. I had to resolder all the wires and match them up with the pins on the controller. I programmed the controller with a 42.5 lvc. Which should give me a newly adjust lvc of about 59.13. With a newly adjusted regen voltage of about 83.46v.

I also set the
Phase Current to 90A
Rated Current to 45A
LVC to 42.5
Tolerance to 1v
I set the speed limit to 60
3 Speed mode to Switch Mode
Speed 1 to 30
Speed 2 to 100
Speed 3 to 120
Indicate Mode to Comm GND
Converse to 25
Block Time to 1
Auto Cruise Time to 15
Slip Current Change to Up 15 Mark
EBS Level to 2

I soldered in connections for speed selection switches.
I have two 3 position switches installed on my handle bar.
I soldered in jumper wires to enable and disable regen.
I soldered in my CA connector.
Soldered a new hall wire connector to match my harness.
Installed a power connector to get away from the spade connectors. (That spark is super scary)
I drilled a hole into the controller case to install a toggle switch for the MCU/CA. (controller power switch)

One switch is for Speed 2(30% throttle) and Reverse

The other switch is for Speed 1(Speed limit 60) Speed 3 (default 100% throttle) Speed 4 (Advanced Timing 120%)

My CA still has a 59v LVC set.

I also setup my Temp Gauge on my handle bars and soldered and shrink wrap the connections. Reads ambient air and motor temp.

Regen does work at the voltage im running.84 charged. 72v nominal. But after 5-10 minutes riding around my neighborhood. The temp slowly rose until it went past 160F. Thats when the meter shows its HI. I was using the regen function.(Always On. Kicks in when you release the throttle.) I think thats one reason why it rose so quickly. Its dumping all that extra energy into the windings. The regen is alot softer on this controller compared to the one on the newer 116 controller. It slows you down ok on level ground but its not going to aid much on downhill. I wonder does the brake by wire regen work more agressively than the Always On Regen. I will remove the external regen jumper and check the temps tommorrow.

[icecube57]

Today I took the bike for a spin on the trail. Mainly to test the Temp Probe and see how it affects my riding style. I was riding at 96.7v fresh off the charger today. I did 32 miles. Consumed 6.4AH. I took the fatpacks down to about 31.7 under load and 33.25 resting. My 12v 12AH booster pack was at 11.3 under load and was 11.7 resting. I mainly stayed in Speed Limit Mode. It peaks at about 15A and maintains a 21-22 mph @6-7 A perfect for cruising and pedaling.

[biohazardman]

Lots of miles not much juice used so you pedal allot. Looks like you did a good job on the build. Love the temperature probe. ;^) They make some for the BBQ folks that are a wee bit smaller. Not sure one needs the rare, med, or well done though. Wonder if there is a wireless model. Guess I will have to check cuz it does seem a good idea not to roast a spendy motor.

[icecube57]

You also gotta remember at higher voltages you also gain extra wh. Vs at lower voltages where you seem to fly through watt hrs like candy on Halloween to get the same performance. So it seems like I went pretty far on nothing. But when you look at the wh per mile I was averaging 17wh/mi for the whole trip. On the way out I was 13-18wh/mi. I even got it down to 8-9 wh/mi in some areas. On the way back I realized I had over 60% my pack left so i was being lazy and was doing about 25-30wh/mi on the way back. The way my bike is geared I can effortlessly pedal along at 20-22mph. I noticed in some areas i was barely consuming 100w. But for the most part it was a constant 2-7A draw at WOT in the SPEED LIMIT MODE which was real easy on my batteries and easy on my wrists cause I wasnt trying to regulate the throttle to keep a constant speed it. It was like a poormans Cruise Control.

I noticed that while riding @ 85-95 ambient temperature the motor runs in the 135-150 when cruising at a 20mph pace. Under inital acceleration you see a spike and as long as you were steady with the speed the temperature would go back down but if you were playing around with the throuttle it would keep climbing. When in the noramal or timing advance mode where it could get the full 45A it would climb up 5-10 degrees if it was a short burst of acceleration. If it was held constant for 30secs or more... you might as well not look at the Temp Gauge cause it would say HIGH in a minute or so. But if you pulled over for 5 minutes. It would drop back down into the 150s.

The temp reading is coming from inside the motor right under the windings. This would be the highest concentration of heat. The GM does not have a solid stator it just has two thin plates for structure. So there is nothing to absorb and wick the heat away it has to immediately be radiated and cooled throguh the axel and motor side covers or just sit and roast. Even when it got past 160F I could still hold my hand on the motor cover. All I can say is the temp probe is useful especially if this is your main mode of transportation and you are trying to stay in the 20mph constant with you speed without overheating in warm to hot weather.

Looking at the performance aspect of having this... The motor is going to running hot. Probably around 170-180 in agressive commuting. It seems to spike and run cooler/or maintain temp at speed. When you stop It climbs a little bit and plateaus off and starts to drop down. I say this because when I stop the motor temp rises and then drops 5-10F for every 5-10 minutes. So when my meter reads high at 160F The motor cant be that much more warmer for it to cool down and register so quick on my meter.

Torque arms are holding great. Everything is still tight. Im not being cocky (knocks on laminated composite wood nightstand) but I think its going to hold up to the stresses. I would like to use regen. Its just not strong enough at 84v and 96v is just pushing the limits for the controller.

Can anyone tell me if the Always On Regen is weaker than the Ebrake-by wire Regen. If so I will just enable push button regen and get a switch to install on my handle bars. Regen will defintely help with Brake wear but no use of having it enable when it isnt worth a damn. Its just extra heat being generated for nothing.

[Hyena]

Yeah I'd definitely be chasing a smaller neater looking thermometer.
What about something like THIS?
It's much smaller and would neatly fit on the handlebars next to the CA

[biohazardman]

I gave up on the regen, after toasting my controllers a 36v and a48v, although I really liked it. Regen will give you a 12-18% return depending on riding style and environment. Still it makes more heat and my motor older 36v 500w got plenty hot on my one slow ride through the downtown area. Expect it added a bit to what would have happened at the slow speed anyway. Actually had to stop and let it cool. You have a thermometer so you could always try it and see.

[icecube57]

I had something weird happened today. I was going to demo my bike to a friend and let him ride it. I plugged everything up. But the wheel was locked and it was twitching/rocking back and forth pulling like 1500-2000w in the process. I cycled the controller a few times. Still twitching. I went from 96v charged down to 84. Still twitching. Then it just stopped working. I put it back on my car and did my delivery route and went home. I took the bike off my rack when I got home and rolled it around. It had some serious cogging going on. Im like sheit. How in the hell did the fets short. Sure enough I took the controller apart and the two fets(on the left end if you are looking at the fet) were shorted out according to my volt meter. Also Im like wtf is all this condensation doing in the case. Im thinking damn was it that humid and cool in my garage for condensation to form. Or did water get in the controller when I transported my bike on my car briefly when it rained. No way its 80 degrees in there. Then I look and saw that the Capacitor that in the middle of the controller along the fets was buldged the top. Then im like how and why did that cap vent. I had some 4310s that were still good from my other dead controller. I desoldered the bad ones and and desoldered good ones and did a transplant. I desoldered the cap. It was a 100v 470uf cap. I replaced it with a 100v 1000uf cap. I tested it and it works fine. I went for a ride it was working fine then i had sudden loss of power. Not completely but more like a speed reduction but when you rengage the throttle it would jerk fast slow fast slow erratically Im like furk.. I turned the controller off and headed home. I made it home an turned the controller back on. I engaged the throttle and it sounded like the phase or hall wires were out of order but i knew they were in the right order. I cut it off unplugged the batts for a few min and reassembled and tried it again and it worked fine driving the motor up to 4000w. I rode a round a few miles putting it through its worse case senario paces. Im assuming that when the caps vented the electrolyte collected on the pcb (looks like sweat or condensation on a glass) and is shorting things out? I would also assume i need to disassemble the controller again and clean the controller pcb with 100% rubbing alcohol and everything should ok right?

[icecube57]

Just posting some ride results from my Exercise/Joyride
Starting voltage 97.6
Ending Voltage (resting) 79.2)
Max speed 46.2mph
Avg speed 24.7mph
43 Minute Ride Time
Max Amps 49.92
Min voltage 71.4v ???
AH Consumed 5.335AH
17.95 miles Total
25Wh/m
449.59 Total WH Consumed

[Hyena]

How did you do that amount of miles at that speed and only use 5ah ??
My GM eats up double that at a slower speed.

[icecube57]

I have a magical throttle. But really I bumped up my SL speed limit to 25mph so i can cruise at 25mph @ WOT and pedal along with the motor to keep the watts down to around 2-300w. The trail was like freaking level. You could have rolled a ball and it probably never would have stopped rolling.

But youd be surprise what you can do by feathering the throttle. I wish i had a CA visor so dont have to look down so much. If you look at the videos i have on youtube you will see that the trail I ride on is like paved and level all the way through barely a 1% grade. Agressive riding will eat 5AH in 8-12 miles. And going 40mph would go through the whole pack like it was nothing. I have killed a pack in 15 minutes and gone absolutely no where fast. I just thought i should post my results because it was a pretty impressive ride.

Doing 20mph I can do 4 miles per AH so its no to unrealistic. Remember higher voltages also means you have more WH at your disposal. So at 48v=48wh per AH... I was barely getting 3 miles per ah that is like 16wh a mile. 80-90v= 80-90wh per AH depending how agressive Im riding. Im using almost double that at 25-30wh a mile. But with throtle regulation I can vary that all the way down to 10 or 15wh doing 20-25mph pedaling along.

[Russell]

How did you do that amount of miles at that speed and only use 5ah ??
My GM eats up double that at a slower speed.

Are you running the same voltage as he is? If not then you can't compare Amp-hours but instead should look at Watt-hours. I use less Ah since I went to 48V compared to 36V but I ride a little faster and consume a bit more Wh/mi.

-R

[docnjoj]

Also if this peanut butter gear thing is making me doubt the decision to use bafang in this build. How hard is it to replace one gear in the bafang. Ive taken my old BD36 apart dozens of times. Is it a simple... pop off one cover and replace one gear or is full disassembly required. I might possibly just do a 48v 20AH lipo battery and consider it the peak for a stock setup. It should do 25mph easy

I considiering th $98 dollar GM special as an alternative. It will certainly be better than a BL36 for the same buiid.

To go back a ways replacing gears in a Bafang is quite easy. The side covers come off and the carrier can easily get the gears changed (circlips). I have 1 steel and 2 nylon in my old one with very little noise. My new one is all nylon but I have replacements ready if necessary. Easy peasy!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

Posting some updated bike pictures.

[icecube57]

I have two videos. They have totally been demolished by youtube converting. But should be in HQ in a while. It has some shots of me accelerating a few times. A little neighborhood cruising. Demostrating when and where I might use my speed switches. At the end on the second video is an end of ride result of my CA and Watts Up. I left the original audio in. There is a bit if wind noise. But you can still hear the motor and how it changes its tone under various loads. The camera is a bit shaky not to much. I have a rigid fork. It flexes but it doesnt dampen everything. Especially at 40mph.

[icecube57]

Controller forgot to wipe.

[icecube57]

I just bought some more candy.

I just bough 6 more Bosch Fat packs. This will be a total of 12 fat packs. They will be used to create an 74v 13.2AH pack.

I also ordered a new rack and panniers to hold my cache of batteries. I had to change racks because I didnt want the center of gravity to be super high. I also figured panniers would be the perfect solution. My seatpost rack woud have allowed the panniers to sway hitting the tire. So Im switching to a rear rack that installs on the QR skewers and frame. Supposedly able to hold 110lbs.

Rack for full suspension bikes.
http://www.amazon.com/Axiom-Odyssee-Ful ... 435&sr=8-1

Pannier Bags. I should be able to fit 6 on each side with room to spar.
http://www.amazon.com/Axiom-27-85-Litre ... 497&sr=1-3

I also bought 2 3A 10s 26v chargers. This will give me 3 chargers total I will be charging at close to 9A charging current. I should be able to recharge a 26.4AH pack in about 3-4 hours.

Im also put in a request to ping to make me a 12.8v 15AH booster pack. With a BMS that should be able to peak at 45A. I think hes selling it for 140.

This will give me a total pack voltage of 86.8v nominal with 1140 wh. This will give me a pedaling range of 95 miles @ 20mph @ 12wh a mile. 57 miles no pedaling @ 20mph @ 20wh a mile. 32 miles at 30mph @ 35wh a mile.

A 19mile range WOT using 60wh a mile @ 40+. If the motor could take the heat... which it cant... lol

[docnjoj]

IC57, you are crazy! But I like it! That's a lot of Fatpacks!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

I just got my panniers in today. I must say Im impressed. They have lots of room. You could easily fit 12-15 bosch packs in one pannier. I think if there was a metal back plate and metal support shelf for the buttom I could pull it off. It easily holds 6 packs unsupported without any deformation in the bag. Ive included some pictures.
http://www.axiomgear.com/products/gear/ ... s/seymour/

[biohazardman]

Carefull with the way you put the batts in the panniers and how you mount them to the bike. I found the stock mounting system on my bags to be weak. The top brackets had a nasty habit of bending and in a very short time the bags would bounce and try to fall off. They weighed in at eight pounds. I ended up securing a heavy ABS battery backplate to the rack and the problem ended but they were not as easily removed after that.
Also think about what happens if you drop the bike. Your battery container needs to be able to handle the impact or you may trash some spendy batts.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12847&p=191134#p191134

Scroll down to the pics

[icecube57]

I got three of my fatpacks in today. The other three will be in tommorrow. Then I will have 12 fat packs. I was debating if i should make them like my first pack and remove all the endcaps and everything... mod the plastic so they stack closer together. Solder bus bars and insulate the sides and wrap them in Alabama chrome but I decided not to. I just took the bms off..drilled a hole in the end of the Bosch Pack covers so the wire could come out. Used the crappy insulated spade connectors to connect them together. They stack nicely. I ran a beat of Liquid Nails along the center of the packs to bond them together and stacked them neatly on top of each other. Its not that much taller than the other pack. Less than an inch. I really wish i would have done this the first go round.

[docnjoj]

I really like the drilled hole idea, IC57! Another 2-3 months and I will be pretty sure these Fatpacks are gonna be OK! then I may follow in your footsteps and get 2-4 more to run 72 volts @6-8 Ah! Bye Bye Bafang!
otherdoc

[icecube57]

My 3 other Bosch Packs came in. My rack came in. My chargers came in.

My charger ganged together charge at 8.9A at 36v. Then it ramps down at the end of charge. Most quick rides should charge in less than an hour. Full discharge will take 3.5hrs.

I assembled my Bosch packs. The glue is setting. It takes a week to fully set but im going to put a round of tape on them just so i can get a test ride at 74v nominal @ 13.2AH. All 4 packs are ready to go. Ping booster pack will be shipped out Monday. I just have to make a wiring harnsess to connect the batts to the controller and charger.

I like how the rack has my panniers very low and to the back. I cant wait to see how it handles. No more trying to hike my leg over the back of the bike trying to clear my trunk bag on my seatpost rack.

[icecube57]

Here is my DOX inspired Air Cooling mod for GM. I would also like to thank Karma for his picture post. I dont have any results yet on how this performs. From test spins in the garage it doesnt cool if the motor temp is 10-20F above ambient but anything above that it either maintains the temp or slowly creep up. I think the mod delays the inevitable overheating but doesnt solve it. I will pound on it tommorrow and then do some light low amp cruising runs to see how it cools the motor during coasting and cruising. If all I have to do is back off the throttle for 2-3 minutes and let the air flow do its job and drop the temp by 10-15 5degrees.. I will be happy.

Ping has shipped my booster pack so I should get it by the end of the week.

Tommorrow will be the test voyage on the new Bosch Packs, Rack, and Panniers.. I got 975wh wh to burn at 74v & 13.2AH. I think i will do a 40-50 mile trip on the paved trail at 20mph just to see if its solid. I may exercise the packs and let er rip. Once it feel good about the build I will do one more test run with the booster pack... Then a extreme range test. Once all of that looks good its then time to take this to the streets to see how it handles in traffic. I should have a solid 88v under load with the new packs and booster pack. Acceleration is good. I can quickly get into the mid to high 30s at 74v so the extra 12v should seal the deal.

[icecube57]

I honestly though that the drilled side cover mod was BS. I thought i may be a placebo affect. To see it in action blew my mind.

The ambient temp was 75.
When the motor is working it pulls the air in and cools the motor. The motor ran 10-15 degrees cooler. When I stop the motor temp rose 10-15 degrees thus showing me the actual static motor temp. Once i started back doing low cruising again the temp dropped 10-15 degrees in minutes. The good thing about this air cooling is i was giving this motor hell. I was pulling so much constant current I made one of my cheap Radio Shack molex connectors melt. The static motor temp never got above 135F when I stopped. Normally before the mod it would have been super hot and toasty on the side covers and my temp probe would read high. It was luke warm at best. I would say its a success. The motor can sustain 3500w for atleast 5 minutes and not reach anywhere near critical temp.

[icecube57]

So I did a performance ride today... 22miles before empty. It was raining not fun.

My CA said I did 38 wh/mi
I consumed 13.17AH.
I peaked at 51A.
My lowest voltage was 58v. The lvc of my controller did kick in at that point. Atleast its good to know the regen mod and my lvc selection in the parameter program was dead on.

I was able to hit 42 mph without being tucked in and was able to hold it for about 2 miles before i backed off. After the surface charge is gone the battery the battery has a solid flat discharge curve. No real performance hit until it drops below 66v. The packs are no where near being stressed. If there are 3 packs in my 37v sub pack and the total pack sees 21-22A under load that means each pack is seeing 7.5A which is half of what they can do constant. Doc mentioned that they can do 15A continuous without heat issues. I had my watts up meter monitoring a 37v 6.6AH pack. It gave me these results.

237wh consumed 948wh total out of all of the 4 sub packs
6.558AH consumed. I guess the low C discharge is allowing for deeper discharge
802 peak watts This would make 3200w for all 4 packs.
29.25v lowest voltage
21.89A peak

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