Golden Motor Build 48v and Beyond!

[icecube57]

I just bought some more candy.

I just bough 6 more Bosch Fat packs. This will be a total of 12 fat packs. They will be used to create an 74v 13.2AH pack.

I also ordered a new rack and panniers to hold my cache of batteries. I had to change racks because I didnt want the center of gravity to be super high. I also figured panniers would be the perfect solution. My seatpost rack woud have allowed the panniers to sway hitting the tire. So Im switching to a rear rack that installs on the QR skewers and frame. Supposedly able to hold 110lbs.

Rack for full suspension bikes.
http://www.amazon.com/Axiom-Odyssee-Ful ... 435&sr=8-1

Pannier Bags. I should be able to fit 6 on each side with room to spar.
http://www.amazon.com/Axiom-27-85-Litre ... 497&sr=1-3

I also bought 2 3A 10s 26v chargers. This will give me 3 chargers total I will be charging at close to 9A charging current. I should be able to recharge a 26.4AH pack in about 3-4 hours.

Im also put in a request to ping to make me a 12.8v 15AH booster pack. With a BMS that should be able to peak at 45A. I think hes selling it for 140.

This will give me a total pack voltage of 86.8v nominal with 1140 wh. This will give me a pedaling range of 95 miles @ 20mph @ 12wh a mile. 57 miles no pedaling @ 20mph @ 20wh a mile. 32 miles at 30mph @ 35wh a mile.

A 19mile range WOT using 60wh a mile @ 40+. If the motor could take the heat... which it cant... lol

[docnjoj]

IC57, you are crazy! But I like it! That's a lot of Fatpacks!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

I just got my panniers in today. I must say Im impressed. They have lots of room. You could easily fit 12-15 bosch packs in one pannier. I think if there was a metal back plate and metal support shelf for the buttom I could pull it off. It easily holds 6 packs unsupported without any deformation in the bag. Ive included some pictures.
http://www.axiomgear.com/products/gear/ ... s/seymour/

[biohazardman]

Carefull with the way you put the batts in the panniers and how you mount them to the bike. I found the stock mounting system on my bags to be weak. The top brackets had a nasty habit of bending and in a very short time the bags would bounce and try to fall off. They weighed in at eight pounds. I ended up securing a heavy ABS battery backplate to the rack and the problem ended but they were not as easily removed after that.
Also think about what happens if you drop the bike. Your battery container needs to be able to handle the impact or you may trash some spendy batts.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12847&p=191134#p191134

Scroll down to the pics

[icecube57]

I got three of my fatpacks in today. The other three will be in tommorrow. Then I will have 12 fat packs. I was debating if i should make them like my first pack and remove all the endcaps and everything... mod the plastic so they stack closer together. Solder bus bars and insulate the sides and wrap them in Alabama chrome but I decided not to. I just took the bms off..drilled a hole in the end of the Bosch Pack covers so the wire could come out. Used the crappy insulated spade connectors to connect them together. They stack nicely. I ran a beat of Liquid Nails along the center of the packs to bond them together and stacked them neatly on top of each other. Its not that much taller than the other pack. Less than an inch. I really wish i would have done this the first go round.

[docnjoj]

I really like the drilled hole idea, IC57! Another 2-3 months and I will be pretty sure these Fatpacks are gonna be OK! then I may follow in your footsteps and get 2-4 more to run 72 volts @6-8 Ah! Bye Bye Bafang!
otherdoc

[icecube57]

My 3 other Bosch Packs came in. My rack came in. My chargers came in.

My charger ganged together charge at 8.9A at 36v. Then it ramps down at the end of charge. Most quick rides should charge in less than an hour. Full discharge will take 3.5hrs.

I assembled my Bosch packs. The glue is setting. It takes a week to fully set but im going to put a round of tape on them just so i can get a test ride at 74v nominal @ 13.2AH. All 4 packs are ready to go. Ping booster pack will be shipped out Monday. I just have to make a wiring harnsess to connect the batts to the controller and charger.

I like how the rack has my panniers very low and to the back. I cant wait to see how it handles. No more trying to hike my leg over the back of the bike trying to clear my trunk bag on my seatpost rack.

[icecube57]

Here is my DOX inspired Air Cooling mod for GM. I would also like to thank Karma for his picture post. I dont have any results yet on how this performs. From test spins in the garage it doesnt cool if the motor temp is 10-20F above ambient but anything above that it either maintains the temp or slowly creep up. I think the mod delays the inevitable overheating but doesnt solve it. I will pound on it tommorrow and then do some light low amp cruising runs to see how it cools the motor during coasting and cruising. If all I have to do is back off the throttle for 2-3 minutes and let the air flow do its job and drop the temp by 10-15 5degrees.. I will be happy.

Ping has shipped my booster pack so I should get it by the end of the week.

Tommorrow will be the test voyage on the new Bosch Packs, Rack, and Panniers.. I got 975wh wh to burn at 74v & 13.2AH. I think i will do a 40-50 mile trip on the paved trail at 20mph just to see if its solid. I may exercise the packs and let er rip. Once it feel good about the build I will do one more test run with the booster pack... Then a extreme range test. Once all of that looks good its then time to take this to the streets to see how it handles in traffic. I should have a solid 88v under load with the new packs and booster pack. Acceleration is good. I can quickly get into the mid to high 30s at 74v so the extra 12v should seal the deal.

[icecube57]

I honestly though that the drilled side cover mod was BS. I thought i may be a placebo affect. To see it in action blew my mind.

The ambient temp was 75.
When the motor is working it pulls the air in and cools the motor. The motor ran 10-15 degrees cooler. When I stop the motor temp rose 10-15 degrees thus showing me the actual static motor temp. Once i started back doing low cruising again the temp dropped 10-15 degrees in minutes. The good thing about this air cooling is i was giving this motor hell. I was pulling so much constant current I made one of my cheap Radio Shack molex connectors melt. The static motor temp never got above 135F when I stopped. Normally before the mod it would have been super hot and toasty on the side covers and my temp probe would read high. It was luke warm at best. I would say its a success. The motor can sustain 3500w for atleast 5 minutes and not reach anywhere near critical temp.

[icecube57]

So I did a performance ride today... 22miles before empty. It was raining not fun.

My CA said I did 38 wh/mi
I consumed 13.17AH.
I peaked at 51A.
My lowest voltage was 58v. The lvc of my controller did kick in at that point. Atleast its good to know the regen mod and my lvc selection in the parameter program was dead on.

I was able to hit 42 mph without being tucked in and was able to hold it for about 2 miles before i backed off. After the surface charge is gone the battery the battery has a solid flat discharge curve. No real performance hit until it drops below 66v. The packs are no where near being stressed. If there are 3 packs in my 37v sub pack and the total pack sees 21-22A under load that means each pack is seeing 7.5A which is half of what they can do constant. Doc mentioned that they can do 15A continuous without heat issues. I had my watts up meter monitoring a 37v 6.6AH pack. It gave me these results.

237wh consumed 948wh total out of all of the 4 sub packs
6.558AH consumed. I guess the low C discharge is allowing for deeper discharge
802 peak watts This would make 3200w for all 4 packs.
29.25v lowest voltage
21.89A peak

You like I like

[icecube57]

I got my 12.8v ping pack today. It was cute. it was 14.4v off the charger.... NICE!!!!! Paired with two Bosch packs in series i got 98.4v.Its a Signalab 4ch BMS. The booster pack looks cute. It fits in my trunk back with my Two Ductaped Bosch 3 packs. I cant give a total pack nominal voltage under load because I wasnt running all 12 packs. The ping BMS works perfect it was able to handle 40-45A. I wired the provided diode across the positive and bms negative. I pounded around the block a few times and goosed the throttle a little to much... I got the motor warm enough to where the air cooling didnt mean tihs! The streets were wet. I was having problems getting the wheel to stick.

I had a mishap yesterday. I put my bike on my bike rack and the rack fell off the car as i was backing out. I have a pringles rear wheel. I bought another wheel today with black DW nylon rim with those weird looking flat smokes. It rides so quiet and smooth. Everything seems solid. I gotta wait for the weather to clear up to really see how it performs.

I Also got my helmet gloves and goggles today. The helmet is snug but I feel safe. The gloves are ok. Theyll help in our mild winter climate in the south. The Goggles were nice!. As long as they dont fog up. They prob will. I tend to sweat easily.

Is the ping pack balanced when all the lights come on ...on the bms?

[ambroseliao]

Hi icecube57,

It sounds like your build is really coming together. May I ask how your Axiom rack and panniers are working out? I am thinking of getting this set since it's reasonably priced. Any rattles or looseness when you corner or go over bumps?

Thanks,
Ambrose

[icecube57]

The rack is solid. Due to the weird geometry of my rear sway arm the rack has a slight forward lean. This can cause problems when using the panniers.they tend to want to jump off the rack because in order for them to really work the rack has to be level. What i did was drill a hole in the metal hooks and run a zip tie through the hook around the rack railing. Now its solid. Its not going anywhere. This also means they are semi permenantly attached to the bike. No noises. It holds all my batteries fine about 30lbs worth. If i grab the rack i could pick up the bike fully loaded and it doesnt budge. The panniers are roomy too. A little too deep in my opinion.

[icecube57]

Tuesday I took the Golden Motor Rig out for a real world test at 98.4v off the charger. I was on side residential streets doing some 20mph cruising. Crusing the Speed limit on main roads connecting to other side street subdivision. I sped up to the 35-40 speed limit when cars were behind me. I was able to hold my own. I didnt have any passers... it was mostly residential with stop signs and such. I think they were more surprised that angry and filled with road rage. I managed to clip 48mph tucked in on a long long stetch. My old buddy heat came back to plauge me seriously. The area didnt have such friendly terrain (rolling hills and stop signs) so after pounding on it i had to cruise slowly for like 10-15 min to get the temps to go down and I pounded on it some more.

My CA was acting nutty so I had to cut the ride short but I did about 10 miles on 8.5 out of 13.2AH (based on what I put back into the pack) and had an ending voltage of 86v.

Ill go down town next time to see how it reacts there. I had my full helmet gear and goggles on. If felt very safe and well prepared. The full face Motorcross helmet was nice. No blind spots or anything. Helmet still snug... Gotta break it in some more.

Im on my 3rd cycle on my ping pack. Charges quickly.. Balances quickly. My deepest discharge was 8 out of 15 AH. The first two were about 5AH. Im raping her slowly and gently... NOT!!! 40-45A solid without any complaints. Well made pack. Tommorrow I want to do a distance test. Or atleast discharge to 10AH.

I need some advise Im noticing phase wire heating.Plastic insulation and some connector deformation. Since I cant replace the stock wires in the axel without making a larger hole. How much would it help if I ran 10G all the way to the motor axel.. terminate it with some andersons and leave the stock wires intact at the axel. Would this reduce heating on the wires or superheat the wires that are inside the axel.

[biohazardman]

Yes running most of the way with heavier wire will help. Still keep an eye on it. The wires are not made for high amps and you may have to upgrade the motor wire if you choose to continue riding as you are.

[icecube57]

I went out again mostly to test the ping pack. I was going for a distance test but i dont have a speedo and my Watts Up can only monitor one of my packs due to the high voltage im running. I put it on the ping pack since I dont have discharge data on it. My CA is being sent off for repair so im kinda stupid while riding,

I instead just rode around my hilly ass neighborhood. The ping pack was showing 14.34 a few minutes after i got it off the charger. That surface charge quickly burned off and dropped to a resting voltage of about 13.3-13.4v. Under a 47A peak load it dipped down to 11.57v. I discharged about 3AH out of it on my ride today. A 1.83v drop isnt bad at 45+A from a small pack like this. Looking at it over the course of a large pack like 36 or 48v that could be a 6-8v drop under load... I dont know if that is acceptable or not. My Volgood 48v pack i had sagged 4v tops under a 40A load. A ping pack 48v 15AH seems like it will sag around 6-7v at a 45A load with the voltage being around 46v-47v. This is from a calculated 53v fully charged pack voltage. I guess dogman is right about the 20AH or better pack from Ping for high current solutions.

This makes 4 shallow cycles... my goal is about 15 before i do a full discharge.

With 6 Fat packs and the Ping booster fitting snugly in my trunk bag (Not the Panniers) the bike handles really well. High speed cornering is a litte tricky but nice sweeping curves... you can lean the bike really far without the back in feeling weird. Its nice. Lowering the weight those 4-5 inches made a hell of a difference. The tires grip the pavement really well in dry conditions. There is a shit load of wheel slip if there is a little bit of water and gravel on the road.

Heating issues are present at 84v nominal under load. But at 74v nominal under load its alot better at shedding the heat. Those 190wh from the booster pack almost doesnt seem worth it to get the 3-4mph speed boost. I was getting 40 on 74v the booster is just kinda helping me to maintain it alot easier.

[icecube57]

Ok I did a distance ride today not to full discharge but 81% is close enough. I think i got a good idea of the true legal distance of this bike is.

I started out at the Tara Drummond Trailhead which is at mile marker 20.3. I put my bike in SL mode which limits it between 22-24 mph when fully charged. This was with a head wind blowing all directions but behind me. I was lightly pedaling along working up a light sweat but not no where near tired.
I rode WOT all the way to mile marker 40.51.

I checked my Watts Up Meter I had on my ping booster pack. It said I consumed 5.459AH.
By math and using nominal voltages I used 400wh from my pack so far. 37x2=74v+13.2v=87.2v(Pack Nominal Voltage)x4.595AH which equals 20/wh mile.

Ambient air temp was 69.6F. Motor temp was 109.0F.


On the way back... I thought it was more downhill. But it might have been higher winds hitting me. I thought I was making good time. My finish AH was 10.725AH. So that means i used 6.2AH on the way back under the same WOT conditions. Were a few minor hills but the trails is mostly 1-2% grade constant. By my math using nominal voltages I used 540wh total on the return trip which equals 27/wh mi mile.

Ambient air temp was 71.6F. Motor temp was 101.3F.

So total I used 940wh. 23.5wh/mi for the the whole trip. My pack total wh is 1155wh. My ride today gave me 40miles to 81% DOD. For a total estimated assisted range of 49 miles with erratic crosswinds.

(Going by nominal voltage calculations and results from Watts Up not actual)
(CA being shipped off for repair)

[The Stig]

Nice pics! Finally a full view of that bike. You really need a suspension fork I think.

I'm considering getting fatpacks if they're easy enough to live with and set up. Could you give me the dimensions of one of your fat packs? Where do you get chargers for them?

[icecube57]

I had a suspension for on it and the motor broke it. I cant find a steel suspension fork with god solid drop outs. The best I could do is get a Surly Rigid suspension for replacement (to maintain the same ride height). It has been solid with no signs of failure or fatigue. The fork is kinda spring. It flexes with the bumps. It dampens alot of the smaller bumps. You still feel the road but its no where near as brutal as a true stiff rigid fork.

I got my chargers from all-battery.com. They are 42v. 10s cell 3A chargers. I wired a diode on the positive wire to give a volt drop of little less than half a volt to give it a safer charging voltage. arounf 41.6-41.7v.

Dimensions:97.92 x72.77 x156.99mm, Weight:1385g

[docnjoj]

Wow IC57! Those are serious batteries. I'm gunna engage in "wishful thinking" and hope that the prices on Fatpacks drop towards Christmas. Then maybe 2-4 more and run 48 volts after the cut-up! Maybe I'll actually buy a Bosch tool too!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

Ok lets put this on the record. Yes I have posted videos that clearly breaks the law in my state but when I am riding it according to law I do meet all the criteria stated below. I get flamed on the trail and on youtube for having an electric bike on the path that I frequent but at the same time the path sign says no motorized vehicles. By state law Im excluded from that phrase. My bike is classified as an electrically assisted bike. And at the flip of a switch it can be in a governed mode that restricts it to meet state law. And the flip of a switch i can be 3x the legal limit too. I shoot video for demostration purposes only. This does not indicate how I ride on the roads all the time.

GEORGIA STATE LAW QUOTED BELOW.
When the term "motor vehicle" is used, that portion does not apply to bicycles. Requirements for licensing, registration, and insurance would be examples.

Whenever a usable path has been provided adjacent to a roadway and designated for the exclusive use of bicycle riders, then the appropriate governing authority may require that bicycle riders use such path and not use those sections of the roadway so specified by such local governing authority.

Electric assisted bicycles as defined in Code Section 40-1-1 may be operated on bicycle paths.
'Electric assisted bicycle' means a device with two or three wheels which has a saddle and fully operative pedals for human propulsion and also has an electric motor. For such a device to be considered an electric assisted bicycle, it shall meet the requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, as set forth in 49 C.F.R. Section 571, et seq., and shall operate in such a manner that the electric motor disengages or ceases to function when the brakes are applied. The electric motor in an electric assisted bicycle shall:

(A) Have a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;

(B) Be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and

(C) Be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device at or more than 20 miles per hour

[Hyena]

How fast were you going there ? It looks quite fast!
edit: never mind, I just noticed the bit at the start saying it was 2x sped up. No wonder it looked like you were doing 100km/hr

[icecube57]

A video with pics about the build and a nice 7-8 mile ride in a neighboring neighborhood.

[icecube57]

[icecube57]

So I went out for exercise. Did 21 miles chuggin along at 19-23 mph. This was the first time I took my pack out after i repaired my bus bars that broke loose. I already drunk my Monster Energy drink. I expected the pack to cut out early and i would have to pedal part of the way back. I get around mile 19.5. I consumed almost 6AH exactly. I was on the home stretch to my car less than a mile to go. Let me give it hell. I was crossing an intersection and goosed the throttle... The bike kept on going but it felt like the throttle was soft/lazy. Im like im supposed to have a little more umph than this. I look at my voltage it was around 58-60v under load. Im like wtf and i feel that "jacked up pulsation of the controller hitting the 58v lvc. Im like SHIT the pack cut out early!. I was thinking coming up .6AH short isnt to bad so I took it easy on the throttle to keep it above the lvc and rode to the car. I got my Volt meter out to see which pack was the culprit. The Bosch packs were within 0.05v of each other. One was slightly lower because the Watts up meter was on it. It said i bursted up to 56A... which lead me to check my ping booster pack I checked my ping pack... Im like wtf No voltage! My heart sunk I thought I killed the pack or the bms. I tried to reset the battery bms and it wouldnt reset when I unplugged it. I started cursing. I then realized that I have a diode wired across the output to protect the pack. I took the diode out and put the diode back in the loop. It powered on. YAY!. This just lets me know instead of putting the dio permenantly across the pack. I need to put a quick disconnect across the diode so when the pack trips i can reset it. It kinda boggled me for a second. I though the bms would cause an open circuit and cut power to the controller until you reset it. I didnt realize that it takes its self out the loop but still maintains continuity and allows the rest of the pack voltage to flow over/through the bms. Thats what the diode is on the output because it could have been severely damage?.