Golden Motor Build 48v and Beyond!

[icecube57]

I went out again mostly to test the ping pack. I was going for a distance test but i dont have a speedo and my Watts Up can only monitor one of my packs due to the high voltage im running. I put it on the ping pack since I dont have discharge data on it. My CA is being sent off for repair so im kinda stupid while riding,

I instead just rode around my hilly ass neighborhood. The ping pack was showing 14.34 a few minutes after i got it off the charger. That surface charge quickly burned off and dropped to a resting voltage of about 13.3-13.4v. Under a 47A peak load it dipped down to 11.57v. I discharged about 3AH out of it on my ride today. A 1.83v drop isnt bad at 45+A from a small pack like this. Looking at it over the course of a large pack like 36 or 48v that could be a 6-8v drop under load... I dont know if that is acceptable or not. My Volgood 48v pack i had sagged 4v tops under a 40A load. A ping pack 48v 15AH seems like it will sag around 6-7v at a 45A load with the voltage being around 46v-47v. This is from a calculated 53v fully charged pack voltage. I guess dogman is right about the 20AH or better pack from Ping for high current solutions.

This makes 4 shallow cycles... my goal is about 15 before i do a full discharge.

With 6 Fat packs and the Ping booster fitting snugly in my trunk bag (Not the Panniers) the bike handles really well. High speed cornering is a litte tricky but nice sweeping curves... you can lean the bike really far without the back in feeling weird. Its nice. Lowering the weight those 4-5 inches made a hell of a difference. The tires grip the pavement really well in dry conditions. There is a shit load of wheel slip if there is a little bit of water and gravel on the road.

Heating issues are present at 84v nominal under load. But at 74v nominal under load its alot better at shedding the heat. Those 190wh from the booster pack almost doesnt seem worth it to get the 3-4mph speed boost. I was getting 40 on 74v the booster is just kinda helping me to maintain it alot easier.

[icecube57]

Ok I did a distance ride today not to full discharge but 81% is close enough. I think i got a good idea of the true legal distance of this bike is.

I started out at the Tara Drummond Trailhead which is at mile marker 20.3. I put my bike in SL mode which limits it between 22-24 mph when fully charged. This was with a head wind blowing all directions but behind me. I was lightly pedaling along working up a light sweat but not no where near tired.
I rode WOT all the way to mile marker 40.51.

I checked my Watts Up Meter I had on my ping booster pack. It said I consumed 5.459AH.
By math and using nominal voltages I used 400wh from my pack so far. 37x2=74v+13.2v=87.2v(Pack Nominal Voltage)x4.595AH which equals 20/wh mile.

Ambient air temp was 69.6F. Motor temp was 109.0F.


On the way back... I thought it was more downhill. But it might have been higher winds hitting me. I thought I was making good time. My finish AH was 10.725AH. So that means i used 6.2AH on the way back under the same WOT conditions. Were a few minor hills but the trails is mostly 1-2% grade constant. By my math using nominal voltages I used 540wh total on the return trip which equals 27/wh mi mile.

Ambient air temp was 71.6F. Motor temp was 101.3F.

So total I used 940wh. 23.5wh/mi for the the whole trip. My pack total wh is 1155wh. My ride today gave me 40miles to 81% DOD. For a total estimated assisted range of 49 miles with erratic crosswinds.

(Going by nominal voltage calculations and results from Watts Up not actual)
(CA being shipped off for repair)

[The Stig]

Nice pics! Finally a full view of that bike. You really need a suspension fork I think.

I'm considering getting fatpacks if they're easy enough to live with and set up. Could you give me the dimensions of one of your fat packs? Where do you get chargers for them?

[icecube57]

I had a suspension for on it and the motor broke it. I cant find a steel suspension fork with god solid drop outs. The best I could do is get a Surly Rigid suspension for replacement (to maintain the same ride height). It has been solid with no signs of failure or fatigue. The fork is kinda spring. It flexes with the bumps. It dampens alot of the smaller bumps. You still feel the road but its no where near as brutal as a true stiff rigid fork.

I got my chargers from all-battery.com. They are 42v. 10s cell 3A chargers. I wired a diode on the positive wire to give a volt drop of little less than half a volt to give it a safer charging voltage. arounf 41.6-41.7v.

Dimensions:97.92 x72.77 x156.99mm, Weight:1385g

[docnjoj]

Wow IC57! Those are serious batteries. I'm gunna engage in "wishful thinking" and hope that the prices on Fatpacks drop towards Christmas. Then maybe 2-4 more and run 48 volts after the cut-up! Maybe I'll actually buy a Bosch tool too!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

Ok lets put this on the record. Yes I have posted videos that clearly breaks the law in my state but when I am riding it according to law I do meet all the criteria stated below. I get flamed on the trail and on youtube for having an electric bike on the path that I frequent but at the same time the path sign says no motorized vehicles. By state law Im excluded from that phrase. My bike is classified as an electrically assisted bike. And at the flip of a switch it can be in a governed mode that restricts it to meet state law. And the flip of a switch i can be 3x the legal limit too. I shoot video for demostration purposes only. This does not indicate how I ride on the roads all the time.

GEORGIA STATE LAW QUOTED BELOW.
When the term "motor vehicle" is used, that portion does not apply to bicycles. Requirements for licensing, registration, and insurance would be examples.

Whenever a usable path has been provided adjacent to a roadway and designated for the exclusive use of bicycle riders, then the appropriate governing authority may require that bicycle riders use such path and not use those sections of the roadway so specified by such local governing authority.

Electric assisted bicycles as defined in Code Section 40-1-1 may be operated on bicycle paths.
'Electric assisted bicycle' means a device with two or three wheels which has a saddle and fully operative pedals for human propulsion and also has an electric motor. For such a device to be considered an electric assisted bicycle, it shall meet the requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, as set forth in 49 C.F.R. Section 571, et seq., and shall operate in such a manner that the electric motor disengages or ceases to function when the brakes are applied. The electric motor in an electric assisted bicycle shall:

(A) Have a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;

(B) Be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and

(C) Be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device at or more than 20 miles per hour

[Hyena]

How fast were you going there ? It looks quite fast!
edit: never mind, I just noticed the bit at the start saying it was 2x sped up. No wonder it looked like you were doing 100km/hr

[icecube57]

A video with pics about the build and a nice 7-8 mile ride in a neighboring neighborhood.

[icecube57]

[icecube57]

So I went out for exercise. Did 21 miles chuggin along at 19-23 mph. This was the first time I took my pack out after i repaired my bus bars that broke loose. I already drunk my Monster Energy drink. I expected the pack to cut out early and i would have to pedal part of the way back. I get around mile 19.5. I consumed almost 6AH exactly. I was on the home stretch to my car less than a mile to go. Let me give it hell. I was crossing an intersection and goosed the throttle... The bike kept on going but it felt like the throttle was soft/lazy. Im like im supposed to have a little more umph than this. I look at my voltage it was around 58-60v under load. Im like wtf and i feel that "jacked up pulsation of the controller hitting the 58v lvc. Im like SHIT the pack cut out early!. I was thinking coming up .6AH short isnt to bad so I took it easy on the throttle to keep it above the lvc and rode to the car. I got my Volt meter out to see which pack was the culprit. The Bosch packs were within 0.05v of each other. One was slightly lower because the Watts up meter was on it. It said i bursted up to 56A... which lead me to check my ping booster pack I checked my ping pack... Im like wtf No voltage! My heart sunk I thought I killed the pack or the bms. I tried to reset the battery bms and it wouldnt reset when I unplugged it. I started cursing. I then realized that I have a diode wired across the output to protect the pack. I took the diode out and put the diode back in the loop. It powered on. YAY!. This just lets me know instead of putting the dio permenantly across the pack. I need to put a quick disconnect across the diode so when the pack trips i can reset it. It kinda boggled me for a second. I though the bms would cause an open circuit and cut power to the controller until you reset it. I didnt realize that it takes its self out the loop but still maintains continuity and allows the rest of the pack voltage to flow over/through the bms. Thats what the diode is on the output because it could have been severely damage?.

[icecube57]

Here is another ride video. I was on the local trail again. I know you guys are probably getting tired of the same ole trail. I spiced things up a bit. I take a little detour throw downtown Powder Springs. Its a small city with 25-35 mph speed limit. I mingle in traffic pretty easily. I got a honk. I dont know why. I was going faster than the speed limit. it was fun and intresting. The looks I was getting. Is he actually in the middle of the road with a bike. I heard hes not pedaling. Well i cant past 20-25. I barely give it 2-3 pedal rotations on start.

My Bosch packs are still performing like the day I bought them. Creeping up on about 75 cycles and no capacity loss with charging up to 42v and full discharges to well in the low 30s sometimes even high 20s. They take a lickin and keep on tickin. Controller has been solid. Range is perfect. Even like in this video. I was playing around and got close to 16 miles and 48min of ride time. I wish it did last longer when playing in the higher speeds but it limits me from doing something stupid.

Video key points are around 50 Seconds in I was traveling a little over 20mph. I gave the throttle a snap for a half mile or more and got up into the low 40s. It created like a Need For Speed motion blur I thought was cool also 3:50 in I turn off the trail and take it to the streets.

[icecube57]

I am about to do a drastic change to my build. I am going to switch to lipo. I think im going to run a 20s system. My GM motor 88v nominal is nice but after a certain point in voltage the rewards arent that great and create problems with heat and not much speed being gained. Im dropping down to 72v nominal. I plan to run 8packs. 5s 5000mah Turnigy or Flightmax. 4s2p. 72v 10AH. I plan to try and boost my current limit from 45A to 65A for more torque when traveling in traffic. Im getting rid of the CA. Going back to the tried and true bike speedo. Im going to have custom battery boxes made. They will be removeable to make the bike light for transport on my vehicle. I will have two turnigy meters mounted on the box monitoring the pack halves. I will have lipo buzzers monitoring the two 18.5v pack in parallel. Ill reprogram the lvc of the controller to have an lvc that matches 80% dod of the pack to make for easier balancing( maybe not AH do ten to get away from you... might have to limp back in slow mo). There will be a tire change. Im long over due wear indicator showing. Im moving the controller to the front or the middle of the bike. Ditch stock harness. Redo all connectors. Make wiring shorter. Main goal is to finalize this build to where its nice and clean to where it doesnt look like its zip tied to death. This will be kinda slowly evolving over the next few months as i get funds dedicated for the switch. Over half way there just need to scout for a charger or chargers. A bms would be nice. I only want it to balance though so i can get a bulk charger. Less wiring confusion.

If my packs do come in perfect shape and are balanced. Can they be charged 2?4?8? packs in parallel with the right rigged connector.

[nicobie]

Curious as to why you're ditching the CA?

I think you can charge as many in parallel as you want. It might be a slow process with a low watt charger though.

[Hyena]

Good to see you joining me in the high powered GM lipo camp
I backed my controller off to 60a peak and I've found running 18S lipo it only draws that power for a few seconds and sits around 30a cruising WOT @ ~38mph which isn't too bad.

No problem with charging as many in parallel as you like, just use a andersons or something foolproof so you don't end up with KFF switching from series to parallel. If you're running 20P and want 2 boxes that's easily achieved - 10S2P in each box with a single set of discharge leads leaving the box, have a series harness that's permanantly connected to the bike for discharge and a parallel one connected to your charger for charging.

Check out the power supply mod threads if you haven't already, they have all the info you'll need. Most of us are using S350 meanwells and they'll charge your pack up in about 3 hours. I'd get a 48v unit, set it to 42v (or 41.5 for safety) and charge your 2 10ah packs in parallel.

[icecube57]

[quote="nicobie"]Curious as to why you're ditching the CA?
quote]

Im really having sync issues since I RMA my meter. The replaced the board which had the new 2.11. The replacement is having issues with AH count and mileage. I tried the old settings from the old CA and even cycle the pack a few times to get the shunt dialed in better. The number in it now is higher than the number used on the previous meter. Its reading slightly high but better after tweaking. Its .2-3AH off. My previous meter was dead on with my Watts Up. Also the mileage is off a bit. A 20m ride on a marked trail ends up being about 24-25m I tried using my old setup values which compensated for the pole count. It was accurrate to 1/10th of a mile before. I tried putting in the correct exact wheelsize and pole count values and its still off. I only really use my CA for AH speed and voltage. A speedo and Turnigy watt meter can do the same thing with simple calculation during the ride for the extended information. From using them both in the past ... they are very tried and true accurate devices imho.

[icecube57]

I bought a 48v 7.4A power supply. I bought the balance connectors so I can make a 4 to 1 balance plug. I bought two hobby king balancers. I plan to charge (2) sets of 4 parallel packs in series (18.5v) to make a 36v 20AH pack for charging. I will rewire them to 4s 2p for 72v 10AH discharge. Im going to dial the charger down to 42v and have the two balancers on each pack half. By turning the charger down I should be able to get a little over 8A charge current and charge in 2-3 hours. I bought 4 lipo voltage displays to monitor each 2p string during discharge. They will be on the outside of the box to give me a voltage status of the packs. (The good thing about this is that the two packs will be joined by a balance connector and will discharge evenly and should help balancing times when charging. A turnigy meter will be monitoring 1 or two strings for discharge data.

I think I will fabricate something similar to a drawer that has divisons in it for the packs and have half moons cut into a removeable divider that slide in locking the pack in its space but allowing the connectors through and have a inch wide channel on the wires side of the packs the wires to series and parallel to the desiered voltage. To close it up I think I may either have a thin board that slides in on top of the packs enclosing them in or get a piano hinge along the side of the box and have it open like a chest but the whole box itself will be slightly thicker than the height of the pack... maybe 1 inch taller and two inches wider. I think also I will buy the MTX trunk bag just to steal slider system and mount it to the bottom of the box so i can cleanly remove it from the bike rack. Treat the box/drawer with fiberglass resin to make it pretty much water proof.

I moving the controller to the front of the bike to reduce wire length needed. Finalize and shorten all the wires connectors. (Buying new ones from Justin and resolder and shrink wrap all of it) Going to make a dashboard similar to docks earlier build.

I havent bought my packs yet. I probably will pick up 8 5s packs a little after valentines day. Really busy work week. I work a delivery job and get paid per delivery so we will be swamped up to 2k bucks in two weeks... NICE!

[The Mighty Volt]

Yesterday i had an Near Death Expereience.

Maybe not as close a call as that squirrel that crosses your path about three minutes into your video

Bravo...that was one hell of a spot!

[icecube57]

Well I have some results of my spending spree.
I will be using lipos but it can be a pain connect and disconnect to get the corret voltage. So I bough 3 4PDT switches to switch my packs between series and parallel. Two switches will swtch each pack half from (4 pack) 18.5v parallel charging to 37v series for discharge. Then I will have another switch that will join the packs from 36v parallel to 72v series.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

I bought two small ammo containers. They can hold up to 5 Flightmax/Turnigy packs. I will put one in each pannier. They have handles for easy carrying. They are watter proof. I will also mount the switches inside these boxes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

I needed a good charger to charger my packs to 42v charged. I bought this 48v power supply. I plan to tune it to 42v and charge my pack in the 4p2s 36v 20AH configuration.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

I bought some female JST 6 pin balance connectors. I bought 10 of them. I want to create a balance harness that will connect 4 packs in parallel by the balance harness to post balance them after the bulk charge.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

I bought the appropriate JST 6 pin male balance connector to terminate the other end of the balance connector so it will plug into the hobby king battery medic.
http://stores.3dxhobbies.com/-strse-488 ... +Balancing

I bought 2 Hobby King Battery Medics. There will be 4 packs parallel to 1 Medic. Thats why i bought two.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=10328

I bought Turnigy Watt Meter. I will probably mount this on the outside of the AMMO/Battery box on the harness that goes to the other AMMO/Battery box. It will be monitoring only 1 pack half but it will give me all the information i need to calculate my pack SOC/AH and wh.mi. I know i could use a CA but im trying to get back to the basics by keeping it simple. Once i get a feel of how the new packs ride and feel I will just only glance at it when I stop. I prefer not to have it in my face... I find myself not enjoying my ride if im looking at my CA all the time.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/stor ... duct=10080

I bought 4 battery monitors. I though it would be a good idea to monitor each 18.5v pack section. It only gives group and cell voltage but the resolution isnt high enough for a accurate reading. It will be more vanity if anything. They will be mounted topside of the the ammo boxes. I also didnt realize i would need more balance harnesses to do this. To monitor each 2p section I have to parallel the packs with a balance connector that will then go to the display meter.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=6589

[icecube57]

I wired my first 4pdt switch. This switch will take my two 18.5v packs and parallel them to 18.5v 20AH or series them to 36v 10AH. With alot of help from the web, Doctorbass and trial and error I figured it out. I posted a picture on how the bottom of my relay looks. Ihis is 1/10 scale low voltage trial. I tried it out with two konion cells acting as the battery pack before applying it to the real thing.The contacts are parallel to increase amperage capacity of the switch to 40A.

[Hyena]

Are you going to have some sort of safetly / warning system when switching from series to parallel ?
If you've got a meanwell with 100v caps you should be right, but I suspect that knock off SMPS you bought will be the same as mine and only have 63v caps.

As I mentioned over in the lipo or maybe it was the power supply thread, I blew the *SHIT* out of my power supply by accidently hooking up my packs to the supply while still in series (I bypassed my usually fool proof andersons plug set up for bench testing something else). Even turned off and unplugged it sent 60+ volts back down into the unit that was set to output 20.5 and the capacitors let go in spectacular fashion. Luckily nothing else was damaged and replacing the 2 caps fixed it.

[icecube57]

I so see what you mean. Name a feature I can include and ill take it into consideration win constructing my battery ammo box. The center is off. Thats prob the first line of defense. Only connect and disconnect the packs when they are in the center off position.
I will think have a linking cable that will have a Turnigy meter built. This will provide limited protection.. Reverse polarity. Thats about it.
I will wire a 40-50A fuse on each input/output.

Nothing is final yet. I dont even have my pack or PSU yet. I planned to mount the switch to my ammo boxes i picked up. I was going to dremel and epoxy an anderson connector into the box. I will wire a 40-50A fuse on each output. on each box. This cable will plug into the anderson connector on the other box . This anderson will be also hooked up to another switch for Series/Parallel to take the packs from 36v 20 to 72v 10. It will then have an output/input anderson connector for charging and discharging. Other than labeling everything clearly I technically do have a bomb on my hands. There alot of prep work to get the packs ready for a ride before on the old system. But this system is supposed to be simpler. But im hoping to get the packs and balance them for the first few runs and make sure they are working and then do a balance every 10-15th charge. That way i dont have to keep fooling with my packs every ride which increase the odds of a BAD connection.

[Hyena]

AH, I forgot about the packs being in 2 seperate ammo cans.
Will they be removed for charging or you'll charge them on the bike ?
Are you actually planning to be able to run the bike on 36v for twice the range ? Or is the switching from series to parallel just for charging ?
If you're not planning to be able to run the bike and hence don't need to be able to switch on the fly you don't actually need the switching set up, the simplest would be to have a single set of andersons leaving each ammo box. For powering the bike you have a series cable that connects to both packs and runs back to the controller, for charging the bike you unplug each ammo can connector and replace it with you parallel charging lead. This is how I charge my 18S pack (3 banks of 6S). Mine are all together in one plug, yours would just be seperated by the distance you ammo boxes are apart. OR, you could have longer leads on one of the ammo cans so both sets of plugs can be clicked together for convenience and then you just have a single 4 pin anderson connector to plug and unplug

[icecube57]

The cans will be removed from the bike. I have no other way to transport my bke on my car.

I know WH is WH no matter what configuration i run it will be the same WH. I do believe there is eff to be gained when runnng at 36v vs 72. I will be alternating depending on the ride. But i wont be doing it under load. These switches are here to help me in chargng and dischargng my packs. I could create a simble plugs but I sometimes like the elegance of complexity.

[The Stig]

the elegance of complexity

Hehe, nice oxymoron.

[icecube57]

So I got some early Christmas presents. I modded my faux meanwell 48v power supply. I swapped out the 1k svr1 pot to a 10k pot and it gives me a wide adjustable range. 58v-below 19v. Im not sure how low it can go or how long it can run at the extremely low voltage.I have it at 37.2 and it pumps out about 10.6A.

THe hobby city balancers work alright but its not super great. The balance mode sucks. I currently use the discharge mode for top end balancing to 3.7v. Your power supply has to be close to your desired pack voltage cause the balancer doesnt have big enough resistors to agressively balance like it should


The thundersky cells are beasts. I ordered from Elite Power. The sla cases for the 5 packs that I add up to atleast 2-3lbs.. They are kinda difficult to work with. Its like asking a slinky to stay still. Im going to put wraps of Gorrila Tape to make them behave. I ran my fau 10G really 12G battery wires. I installed the balance connectos. Im going to cut some stick on floor tile to the size of the top of the battery and stick it on top. Im going to leave a hole for the discharge wires and the balance connector and wrap the packs.

THe cells cam well packaged. They were all with in .02v of each other. They were hovering arouund 3.31v-3.3v. I put them on the charger and loaded about 8AH into the packs to 3.7v

One problem that im having with the Thunder Sky cells is that some of the cells seem to have low internal resistance when fully charged. So when i put the charge on the pack the immediately shoot up past the desired balance voltage. I have to wait for the stragglers to catch up. This is what balancing is. Kinda annoying. I was trying to balance them and get them close as possible to 3.7v. There is a variance of about 0.05v which isnt bad. I have yet to cycle the packs. I was going to do 5 cycles. 1 5AH 2 10AH 2 15AH 2 20AH discharges and see how they come out. When they come off the charger the float charge slowly drifts away. After a few hours they become unbalanced and show a variation of .05 to .10v.