Golden Motor Build 48v and Beyond!

[dogman]

Yup a regular rack will greatly interfere with the action of rear suspension, so you need the seatpost kind. I have seen two of em used to hold more weight. If it looks like too much for the seatpost itself, a stout hickory or oak dowel inside would stiffen it.

On the spinout, torque arms are important, but not nearly as important as a proper fit, with nice flat contact on the dropouts. It's one of the reasons I like the simple pinched tube kind. You simply put em on a vise and press em flat to make em perfect. There is no cup to deal with. Justin at ebikes-ca just added a c washer to his product line to fill the lawyer lips on dropouts. The washers you saved will work only if you drill em out to a larger hole. Not real easy to do. A larger split lock washer can work. In any case, the perfect fit is the thing. A bad fit will actually start spreading the forks as you tighten down, and will let go on you later for sure when it spreads some more.

On brakes, just get some pinched tube forks with v brake posts on em. Ebay ususally has em from out of date bikes dissasembled. You can pinch that tube a lot for the clearance. there is nothing but a threaded rod in the bottom 4 inches of the cheap forks, so go ahead and pinch em all you need.

[The Stig]

Good:) so you can use regen braking. I like the idea of hardly ever having to change brake pads.

[icecube57]

Yeah I would probably get one of knuckles controllers. Atleast his doesnt have a high failure rate like the Golden Motor Controllers does with regen. I read somewhere that someone tried to use regen on the GM controller and the motor ripped out of the forks. Not a nice thing to do. The funny thing i see about their new controller is i think it has antitheft device where if it feels vibrations it will use current to lock the rotor to prevent someone from riding away. It think its a cool but funny feature. Imma have to get a new controller anyway i think i see a hole in my budget where i can make 11.1v LIPO 8AH-16AH Booster pack out of some RC packs. lol it would be kinda sick for me to go to 96v.... but im not that stupid. I think ill save the extra juice for the last leg of the ride when the voltage drops off and speed disappears. Even tho lip isnt supposed to sag like SLA does. I got a quick question Is it safe to parallel a pack of different voltages. If i take these rc packs and make a 44.4 volt battery and my main pack sits at a way high voltage is it or is it not possible to parallel them with a schottys. Or should i stick to the idea of just making a booster. I wonder also If i could use the stock 48v controller with the booster pack. Wont know until I open it up.

I bought my Watts up meter... well i paid for it today on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0032518289

Im also about to get these torque arms on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/E-Bike-Torque-Arm-E ... .m20.l1116

Anyone ever use them?

Well guys its snowing here. This is a rare occasion... For Georgia that is... Snow on the grass and black ice every where. I gotta go get me some of this action. lol

PEACE

[Hyena]

I read somewhere that someone tried to use regen on the GM controller and the motor ripped out of the forks. Not a nice thing to do.

Yeah that was me. I don't recommend adding the experience to the list of things to do before you die. If you do, best put it last on the list...
Mine was non-regen braking - same deal as regen but was dissipating the energy into a coil of wire rather than back into the batteries. I was using it in the absence of front brakes because I couldnt fit discs to the GM and my forks had no v brake mounts. Seeing as you've already sorted front brakes I'd highly recommend against it - not worth the risk on front hub motors for such minimal regen gains.

Re: the watts up meter, remember they're only rated to 60v and you'll promptly kill it if you try and put higher voltage into it.

[icecube57]

Its not limited to just 60v. But limited to voltage of a 60v pack. I think i recalled that it showed all the information on my 60v pack on my last 60v build. It peaked at 68v and some change. I even went to 72... with a half dead SLA pack. But once i put a fully charged pack on it popped. I know the 48v ductape pack will be 54+ off the charger. I should be able to run the booste pack too. and stay under 68v limit. The meter says its limited to 100A i think i pulled 138A through it on a crazy stout scooter controller.

[The Stig]

I read somewhere that someone tried to use regen on the GM controller and the motor ripped out of the forks. Not a nice thing to do.

Yeah that was me. I don't recommend adding the experience to the list of things to do before you die. If you do, best put it last on the list...
Mine was non-regen braking - same deal as regen but was dissipating the energy into a coil of wire rather than back into the batteries. I was using it in the absence of front brakes because I couldnt fit discs to the GM and my forks had no v brake mounts. Seeing as you've already sorted front brakes I'd highly recommend against it - not worth the risk on front hub motors for such minimal regen gains.

Re: the watts up meter, remember they're only rated to 60v and you'll promptly kill it if you try and put higher voltage into it.

Regen in the front without torque arms is a very bad idea.
Regen in the front with dual torque arms properly install, I would say, is a good idea.

[icecube57]

My battery and motor kit both came in today. 2 Days from china for my battery isnt bad. Didnt realize how heavy that 48v 20AH battery really was... about the size of a car battery too. Battery was in good shape... the box it came in was kinda furked up. The motor kit had many faults. When I removed the rim out the box it was rattling... I thought something went fubar in the motor. I deflated the tire. Unmounted it removed the inner tube and tire.... One there was no rim tape. Two there were burrs all around the rim where the rim had been drilled for the spoke nuts. Three there was a freakin spoke nut just rattling around in the double walled rim. I removed the nut. Got rid of the burrs. Installed some rim tape. Installed a new inner tube. Mounted the original tire that came with the bike. I went to install the wheel to the fork. One side had the nut on backwards. I had to kut my sensor wires/connector on the motor to put the nut back on correctly .... the torque washers were a joke... they didnt fit even after bending the tab They got omitted. I mounted the motor... no torque arms yet. I resolder the sensors and ran the wiring along the bike. Temporarily mounted the controller. Went out to a local shop. I bought seatpost rack and bag. Went to wally world and bought a pump. The pump didnt work. Had to rig it to work. The bag wouldnt fit the battery no mattery how hard i tried i ended up slitting one corner of the bag. It didnt compromise the bag to much. but it fits in there and the opening lets me run my wires out. Its a temporary bag i suppose. The rack fits fine but its hard to get it tight. Even then it still swivel a little bit but not by much. The battery came charged... I topped it off in like 20 minutes. Loaded my bike up and took her for a spin. I finally realize my gears need some tuning but it didnt matter its not like i can use them anyway. The start off torque on this motor is fierce. Im 315lbs and it took off. And fast even when you pedal up to speed and hit the throttle it jolts off like your input was in vain. I dont have my watts up meter yet so i can tell the actual amp draw or how my pack is behaving. But i rode around the block a few times up some hill... pulls like a pack mule. I dont see any reason for me to go higher than 48v on this bike im satisfied with what i got now. Other that so minor bugs tweaks to my drive train and some rewiring to do... this bike kicks ass. Ill probably get out the next day or two and get some gps speed results. Dont have a bike computer yet either... Funds spreading thin. Here are some picks of where the build is now.

[icecube57]

Yesterday was a fun day.. Today just had a host of problems. I had some serious wiring issues. The connectors I were temporarily using kept burning up. They were fine under light load but when I went for more than 20 secs WOT the power would cut out... Not completely. The pack voltage lights still worked but there was such a volt drop at the connectors the controller LVC kicked in under load. I was going to try for a long distance drive but with those problems I didnt even make it out my apartment complex. I worked the past hour re doing all the wiring. Seems to be working fine now. Even under stall. I also took the time to tune my gears. They were way out of check. The gear number shown wasnt the actual gear that it was in. I finally got everything lined up correctly. Everything shifting correctly according to the numbers on the shifter. The front derailer alignment was way off. It kept causing the chain to pop off. I keep seeing why this bike was discounted. I did a bike only ride just now. Shifting smoothly. Got a new pump. Pumped my tires up to 60psi. Ride wasnt harsh. The suspension took alot out of stiffness you get in hard tail bikes with that high psi setups. I tweaked my seatpost rack. It kept swiveling even when tighen down all the way. I ended up taking my old handlebar grip and putting around the seat post and then put the seat post rack on top of that and tightened it down. No more swivel. Moved the controller from the along the top tube and attached it with heavy duty zip ties to the seatpost rack. It doesnt interefer with the mounting of my battery bag on the rack. My battery is sitting at 60v floating charge on the charger. 58v after 1hr sitting off charger. After applying a load it drops to 54 v. I havent even been able to do a 5% discharge yet. With all the work Ive done today tommorrow is defintely a good test day. I feel it. Im still waiting on my Watts Up meter.... Still trying to figure out how to mount it too.

[biohazardman]

Yesterday was a fun day.. Today just had a host of problems. I had some serious wiring issues. The connectors I were temporarily using kept burning up. They were fine under light load but when I went for more than 20 secs WOT the power would cut out... Not completely. The pack voltage lights still worked but there was such a volt drop at the connectors the controller LVC kicked in under load. I was going to try for a long distance drive but with those problems I didnt even make it out my apartment complex. I worked the past hour re doing all the wiring. Seems to be working fine now. Even under stall. I also took the time to tune my gears. They were way out of check. The gear number shown wasnt the actual gear that it was in. I finally got everything lined up correctly. Everything shifting correctly according to the numbers on the shifter. The front derailer alignment was way off. It kept causing the chain to pop off. I keep seeing why this bike was discounted. I did a bike only ride just now. Shifting smoothly. Got a new pump. Pumped my tires up to 60psi. Ride wasnt harsh. The suspension took alot out of stiffness you get in hard tail bikes with that high psi setups. I tweaked my seatpost rack. It kept swiveling even when tighen down all the way. I ended up taking my old handlebar grip and putting around the seat post and then put the seat post rack on top of that and tightened it down. No more swivel. Moved the controller from the along the top tube and attached it with heavy duty zip ties to the seatpost rack. It doesnt interefer with the mounting of my battery bag on the rack. My battery is sitting at 60v floating charge on the charger. 58v after 1hr sitting off charger. After applying a load it drops to 54 v. I havent even been able to do a 5% discharge yet. With all the work Ive done today tommorrow is defintely a good test day. I feel it. Im still waiting on my Watts Up meter.... Still trying to figure out how to mount it too.

I had 12lbs of lithium on my rear rack and thought it was OK. I tried a bit more and did not like the balance at all so went with some panniers and put the weight low. Rear racks for more weight that install on the triangle are available and would make things a bit steadier although they are not cheap. I would expect you could modify one of the better regular bike racks to fit. A bracket that fits on the axle can easily be made to bolt the rack on and hold the majority of the weight. Smallish U-bolt clamps will fit on the triangle to hold the front of the rack. Oh, and the torque bar looks allot like what I have on my avatar works well it does. Good luck and be safe.

[morph999]

Im also about to get these torque arms on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/E-Bike-Torque-Arm-E ... .m20.l1116

Anyone ever use them?
PEACE

Those torque arms don't look good. They don't look adjustable. The good ones have a thing that pops out so it can be rotated around but I don't see it on those.

Here is what the good ones look like:

http://ampedbikes.com/buynow.html
scroll down and you can see how the middle part pops out so it can be adjusted

[dogman]

It generally takes me a 100 miles of riding to finally get all the tweaks out of a new bike. Sounds like you know how to do it. It's worth it to save hundreds of dollars compared to a similar cheap bike bought at a high dollar bikeshop. If you aren't able to dial in a bike, then the bikeshop may be worth the price for the service. Once I got mine all set, I haven't had to touch anything for thousands of miles exept for the brake adjusters on the handles and a wheel trueing at about 1500. Back when I rode hard on pedal bikes, I trued the wheel weekly, so even cheapo suspension has a big effect.

[icecube57]

I got my Watts Up Meter. Here is some bike data. Controller is always on. Standby current is 0.08A and 4w. Standby with thumb throttle lock on is 0.2A and 11w... Big parasitic draw in my opinion. Freewheel draw is 1.5A and 78w. Stall current draw was 33.68 and 1664.1w. Speed measurements with a 315lb rider goes as followed. Garmin GPS verified 22mph unassisted. 26mph pedaling. 32mph downhill. 8-12mph uphill unassited. Never stalled on some decent grades. This bike is probably alot faster with you lighter people on this forum. I had my stock 30A glass fuse holder melt and blow today. It was pretty disfigured. I was riding pretty hard no input but thats no excuse for the cheap workmanship of the components of this kit. I replaced all power wires with 12g wire except for motor phase wires... Thats another project (grins). I realize my suspension is really soft on this bike. The weight with me and the battery causes the rack to bottom out on the tire. I will try to solve this by adjusting the shock adjustmen as far as i can with a wrench... instead of by hand. It should lift the rear end up a bit and sitffen then ride cause its way way to soft. I need brakes. Mines work but it leaves alot to be desired slowing down from high speed. Considering regen braking and possibly a higher amp controller possibly 40A. When torque arms come in and I get the funding. My battery has been fine. No abnormalities... No where near a full discharge either. If my bike is peaking at 30-35A 1.5C its in that safe slightly stressed butter zone. Does anyone bypass the bms for dishcharging and use the bms for charging? My bms is kinda big and takes up alot of room in the bag. Would be nice to do without it. Thats all for now... I also got some video if you dont mind wind and turning your head to the side to look at it sideways. Please turn speakers down.

[dogman]

Now that I realize what you weigh, some suspension and brakes upgrades could be good for you, on the cheap stuff that works fine for me. Look for better brakes for cheap on broken bikes at a flea market or gargage sale. I've got some real expensive stuff for $20 that way. On ebay, you should be able to find a stonger spring to put into the rear shock, or for money, get a better shock with more travel.

[icecube57]

I work up early this morning to do a test run on our paved bike trail out here. Its pretty level with slight grades. My goal was 20 Miles. On the first 10 Mile stretch I use the WOT pulse and glide method with light pedaling on the acceleration. On the way back I used a constant throttle at about 1/4 the way on. I was consuming 5-10A on the entire way back to my car. My average speed was 18-22 mph pedaling along with the motor at 1/4 throttle. My trip computer is very accurate. I checked it with the trail markers and its dead on the money so I know my speed is good. I tried to establish my top speed in the first leg of the 20 miles since It was slight down hill and I had a freshly charged pack. But funny thing is I ended up breaking the first record on my return trip up hill... go figure lol. I consumed more AH on the way out than on the way in. With the meter I trained myself to use less on the way back in. The low constant throttle used alot less power and I had better time. I had to get rid of that crappy video from before. Im glad I edited it. It came out alot better. At the end of the ride I show my Watts Up Meter results and my trip computer results. 20 Miles and I stayed under 10AH I dont see why with a little more training I couldnt get 35-40 miles on the battery pack as I originally states. The bike is alot lighter than my previous build with the 60v-72v of SLA batteries I was carrying befire. Its atleast 20-30 lbs lighter. And twice as fast and twice as much torque. Holding the throttle at the 1/4 position almost felt like i was riding a pedelec type bike. It still gives you a work out but you its good to know you arent entirely cheating while riding.

[icecube57]

I did 30 miles today. Maintained and average speed of 16mph consumed 9.8AH. Last mile I blew a tire. There was bulge in the side wall when I replaced the inner tube. I found there were fray marks all in the side wall where the nylon was frayed. I started poking at it and it blew out. I notice a wobble in the back wheel when I was riding and was trying to get back to the car as soon as possible. Gotta get a new set of tires... I swear I can use slicks where I live . I have a lot of spin outs starting up even when I pedal first. Sand and loose gravel in streets and side roads.

[icecube57]

In my last post i said I had tire issues.I had a busted tube and the side wall of one of my tires blew out. I scraped some money and bought some bell wally world kevlar reinforced tires. Im not proud of my purchase but then again i like instant gratification. I gained 3-5 mph on the flats and downhills. Its a slick with slightly agressive tread for city/urban use. They roll very quiet compared to the knobbies I pulled off that sounded like a 4x4 truck going 70 mph with mud boggin tires on. I clocked 33 on the flats and 37 on my down hill. Keep in mind my free wheel speed is 44mph right off the charger. Cant wait until I get my torque arms cause i need some regen braking bad... Im thrilled at the speed increase. Ill post a wheel POV video.... You can hear my motor purr whine and growl as it hauls my fat arse around the park.There is still some wind but its alot better than my other vids. I had every intention of draining my pack today to do a review on my ebay duct tape battery pack. That thing is freaking huge. I spend over 30 minutes doing hard riding and only manage to drain 11AH. It was to cold to continue. I like the flat discharge curve and even performance even tho there is obvious 2-3v voltage drop with the load. Its pretty flat. I feel spoiled compared to my old SLA setup. Im expecting there to be 17-18AH in the pack due to the perkuets but i gotta get to the bottom of the bucket to let you know first... one day guys... one day.

[dogman]

I have 2000 miles on one of those wally world bell tires, and it still has a ton of tread left. Lots of sharp rocks, metal stuff etc, and it is fine.

[docnjoj]

Ditto on the Walmart tires. I need at least 2 at a time (front toe in sucks but is better than toe-out or zero) and they are lasting much better than my Big Apples did, plus they have less grip! That means a slide instead of a flip! Definitely better IMHO!
otherDoc

[icecube57]

After reading the recent NDE story I bought some torque arms from Earl at the Powerridestore. They torque arm needed some work but i got it on and i fit it inside the fork. I also got some Andersons but not enough to finish all my connections. I bought two headlights. I plant to buy a DC to DC convertor and tap power from my battery to power the headlights but right now im using ( 4)2600mah AA NIMH batteries in each headlight. I plant to recharge once a week and carry some regular alkaline in my emergency backpack just incase im stranded somewhere. Bought a wider comfort seat. That narrow assed stock seat was doing a number on my chode. I couldnt walk right or sit for atleast 3-4 days after that 30 mile test run. I also raised my handle bars about 1 1/2 inches... Ride feels much better.

[icecube57]

Today I did a dusk/night ride. I did manage to drain my pack today. I got about 16AH out of a 48v 20AH pack. I did WOT throttle 80% of the time. I pedaled during the start up until I couldnt match the motor speed and let rode the throttle rest of the time. I got about 23 m. The motor was mildly warm. The bms on the battery cut me off.I could technically keep pulling out of the pack at 5-10A but i couldnt stay in the butter zone. Someone please tell me is the 16AH I got out of my pack reasonable or do i need to do some sniffing to find the dead rat. I was drawing 30A most of the time. I wasnt babying the throttle. My light worked but they were lack luster. Im going to find a supplementary LED light system on EBAY I like they way the projected. For them to be so cheap i like that pure white blinding light. They had a wide angle mid throw even light beam The two I have a focused far throwing beam like a flash light. I also had a failed anderson. Bad crimp. I fixed it with my kit bag in the middle of my ride. Thats all i got for now.

[Russell]

Today I did a dusk/night ride. I did manage to drain my pack today. I got about 16AH out of a 48v 20AH pack. I did WOT throttle 80% of the time. I pedaled during the start up until I couldnt match the motor speed and let rode the throttle rest of the time. I got about 23 m. The motor was mildly warm. The bms on the battery cut me off.I could technically keep pulling out of the pack at 5-10A but i couldnt stay in the butter zone. Someone please tell me is the 16AH I got out of my pack reasonable or do i need to do some sniffing to find the dead rat. I was drawing 30A most of the time. I wasnt babying the throttle. My light worked but they were lack luster. Im going to find a supplementary LED light system on EBAY I like they way the projected. For them to be so cheap i like that pure white blinding light. They had a wide angle mid throw even light beam The two I have a focused far throwing beam like a flash light. I also had a failed anderson. Bad crimp. I fixed it with my kit bag in the middle of my ride. Thats all i got for now.

Do you know for sure it was the BMS shutting down or was it the controller? If you have a regular run-of-the-mill 48V controller it likely has a LVC of 41V which will cut you off BEFORE the BMS. If you have a unit like the modified controllers sold by ebikes.ca where the LVC has been modified lower then the BMS would be the item shutting you down. Measure the pack voltage when it shuts down and if it's around 41V you have your answer.


-R

[icecube57]

It was the stock GM controller. I think I recalled it was dropping down to 42... lor lowere under load. When the BMS tripped my Watts up meter went dead also so I think it was the BMS. At that same time I also had an Anderson Connector problem so the controller might have also sensed a volt drop from that under load. I fixed it but at the same time i wrapped up my run thinking my pack was dead. This is my first deep discharge. The other 4-5 have been 50% or less.

My pack is a little unbalanced there might be a weak cell.

Here is some individual cell data from my pack. Starting from the beginning of the string to the end. I checked it through the bms connector

2.87
3.07
3.17
3.17
3.14
3.11
3.17
2.95
3.11
3.11
3.13
3.13
3.11
3.14
3.16

So I may have two possibly 3 bad sections. Or it could be a bad soldering job and to much resistance causing the variation.Maybe another charge and balance and another discharge will bring it back in line if it doesnt after a few more cycles Im going to talk to the vendor.

[icecube57]

Its just got done charging. Not balancing anymore. The data goes as followed
3.78
3.77
3.77
3.79
3.78
3.76
3.78
3.48
3.78
3.76
3.78
3.64
3.77
3.79
3.78

Seems like a bad seed or two. Maybe hiding in there.
Here is the email i sent the vendor.
2009/3/16 Christofer Parham <khristopher2000inbox@hotmail.com>

So I have been using this battery. I have done 2-3 shallow discharges using 5 AH. I also done 2 discharges to 50% consuming 9-10 AH. Today I did a deep discharge but I couldn't get past 15.5-16 AH. I was discharging at 30A on my bike. I checked the cells through the bms connector ribbon after this deep discharge run and got these values.
2.87
3.07
3.17
3.17
3.14
3.11
3.17
2.95
3.11
3.11
3.13
3.13
3.11
3.14
3.16

Seems like there might be 2-3 problematic sections. I will charge and let it balance for a while. And record the data. I will also deep discharge a few more times and record the data. Can you shed some light on what might be going. I was kind of expecting close to 17-18 AH at most out of the pack.... Im happy with the pack so far Im just seeking that missing 2-3 AH. Hope it isn't a bad cell.

Here is the response.

Hi friend
According to the data you showed me, the current discharge is not so balance. So some current is protected in the battery. The 15.5-16AH is quite normal.
If you have any problem pls feel free to contact me.

Have a good day

I kinda figured there is probably more juice in the pack but the bad cell is bring the voltage low enough to cut the bms prematurely. But 15AH is still good. But how much is really left in there. I wont know until i cycle a few more times. Its raining so today is washed out.

[dogman]

Unfortunately that seems to be pretty common with the round cell packs. Too many cells in a parallel string lets one die before the bms stops it. And some sellers may even sneak a few cells in there that are no good from day 1. Light depth of discharge would be a good idea for that pack. They do go through a break in period, but you are mostly through that now.

[icecube57]

Although there obviously may be a weak cell or two. I think the bms is cutting in way to early. I talk to a guy thats designing a bms for a123 packs and other cells and hes going to set his to 2.3v per cell. 2.2 v is when cell reversal starts. When i measured mine they were in the 2.7 which is kinda above the theoretical cut of and i could possible drain it a tad bit more if it wasnt for the bms cutting in early. I think that they factor in so much head room in designing the bms that they dont let you drain the whole pack. One to save their asses from having to live up to the warranty. Two to prevent damage from over discharge. I could bypass the bms and discharge without it and let the lvc take over. But then again the lvc of the controller is probably 41.5 +/_ .5 v which is a little high for lithium. I feel with a properly adjusted lvc on the bms or on the controller will allow me to see 18ah.