AVIAN featherweight mid drive

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ScooterMan101
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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 24, 2017 12:22 pm

While you are working on the VESC , What throttle are you going to use with it ?

How will you have a cruise control function ?

Idea I have is to have it work on / with a up and down button , each press of the + button/ pad will increase speed by 1mph or better yet 1 Kph.
each press of the - button/pad will decrease the speed by same amount. long press of either + or - will speed up or down just like a throttle.
This to work with brake sensors that shut off the motor when engaging either brake lever. or option of engaging when the front brake .

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 24, 2017 4:19 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:While you are working on the VESC , What throttle are you going to use with it ?

How will you have a cruise control function ?

Idea I have is to have it work on / with a up and down button , each press of the + button/ pad will increase speed by 1mph or better yet 1 Kph.
each press of the - button/pad will decrease the speed by same amount. long press of either + or - will speed up or down just like a throttle.
This to work with brake sensors that shut off the motor when engaging either brake lever. or option of engaging when the front brake .
If you can program it and work out all details, then go for it. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that will be happy to use it.
I will be just fine without cruise control.
I used CA in my first mid-drive build, but I don't want to use it on this one. I like VESC because it is compact and it can be set up all kind of ways. I'm using a cheap Chinese hall throttle. On VESC, it is so simple to hook up that even cave man can do it.
I just hope that someone will help me with setting up D E A D - M A N switch.
Guys, if you know how to set up D E A D - M A N switch on VESC, please chime in.
I will really appreciate it.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by orange streak » Oct 03, 2017 1:47 am

It should be belt drive if you want to be particular with making it lightweight.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 03, 2017 11:05 am

orange streak wrote:It should be belt drive if you want to be particular with making it lightweight.
I'm particular about everything and I already own one of the best belt drives. It is made by GNG and I improved almost everything I could on this kit. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252
It weighs 9lb, it is 4 times as big, and it is very good representation of 19th century industrial revolution design. It's nothing wrong with it, and if that's what you're after, I recommend Lightning Rods kit.
Once I finish my new build, I will, most likely, sell my GNG kit as well.
Now, anybody that knows how to set up a motor cut off power on VESC?
Last edited by Ecyclist on Oct 18, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by robbie » Oct 03, 2017 2:06 pm

Ecyclist wrote: I just hope that someone will help me with setting up D E A D - M A N switch.
Guys, if you know how to set up D E A D - M A N switch on VESC, please chime in.
I will really appreciate it.
Great job with the Cyclodial drive!

No eBrake input. Just looked up the hardware. Having almost zero familiarity with the product and programming specs... I'm just grasping, but someone surely can give you some experiential feedback.

You could force a short on the PWM signal from whatever your throttle is, nullifying the output. A simple hack. Just include a resistor of whatever size is needed so that your driver doesn't get damaged.

Does the VESC have an eBrake input? a parallel switch for the ebrake input that acts as a deadman?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by madin88 » Oct 03, 2017 2:59 pm

Awesome battery and drive system.
I wonder how much power and torque this gearbox can withstand, and how the wearout is.
Any more details about that?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 06, 2017 9:56 pm

robbie wrote:
Ecyclist wrote: I just hope that someone will help me with setting up D E A D - M A N switch.
Guys, if you know how to set up D E A D - M A N switch on VESC, please chime in.
I will really appreciate it.
Great job with the Cyclodial drive!

No eBrake input. Just looked up the hardware. Having almost zero familiarity with the product and programming specs... I'm just grasping, but someone surely can give you some experiential feedback.

You could force a short on the PWM signal from whatever your throttle is, nullifying the output. A simple hack. Just include a resistor of whatever size is needed so that your driver doesn't get damaged.

Does the VESC have an eBrake input? a parallel switch for the ebrake input that acts as a deadman?
Thank you for your idea. It helped me a lot. After I read it, I realized that I can install micro switch in a line that supplies power to the throttle. I even don't have to mess with VESC, and that's a good thing.
@madin88 So far I'm only running it on the fluid exercycle because I'm working on a case for the VESC and the battery pack. On the Rohloff top 14th gear and 30MPH, I'm pulling only 900W. So nothing special. I actually just finished the case for VESC. The battery case is next, but before that I will need to work a little to put some food on the table. :D

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 06, 2017 10:15 pm

So, I finished the case for VESC and the fan for the motor.
VESC should be happier because I shortened cables between FAT's and capacitors and FAT's have heat sinks.
The little round thing on a side that looks like a hole is actually a polycarbonate plug that feeds the LED status indicator light to the outside.
Attachments
Vesc inside of the case attached to the bike..JPG
Vesc inside of the case attached to the bike..JPG (88.9 KiB) Viewed 683 times
Vesc case new 1.JPG
Vesc case new 1.JPG (79.85 KiB) Viewed 683 times
Vesc case new 2.JPG
Vesc case new 2.JPG (62.62 KiB) Viewed 683 times
Fan for 6374 motor.JPG
Fan for 6374 motor.JPG (74.94 KiB) Viewed 683 times
Motor with a new fan.JPG
Motor with a new fan.JPG (122.24 KiB) Viewed 683 times

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by aja » Oct 16, 2017 2:16 am

Ecyclist - Following with interest - there is a gap in the market for lightweight quiet motor kits for pedal assist. Look forward to seeing a video or hearing audio of the kit in action.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 17, 2017 5:58 pm

I still don't know what this kit is going to be about. Most likely more than pedal assist.
I think that Kepler Friction Drive is a very good choice for a pedal assist. I'm thinking about buying one like that and installing it on my wife's bike.
Anyways, I didn't finish my battery case yet, but I figured it is time for some testing and measurements.
Here are the results at 37.3V and using VESC set for 30A 6374 outrunner at full throttle:

Motor only 45W
Motor with transmission 65W
Motor with transmission running rear wheel off the ground 85W
6374 with Cycloid and wheel off the ground.JPG
6374 with Cycloid and wheel off the ground.JPG (119.41 KiB) Viewed 605 times
After that, I used a high tech red bungee cord, strapped the battery pack to the bike rack and took the bike for a few spins around the block.
Test ride.JPG
Test ride.JPG (155.06 KiB) Viewed 605 times
The cycloidal transmission runs quiet and smooth. Top speed at 36V is 29 mph, and that is about it for that motor and that is what I expected. Actually, the motor was very happy at 25 mph and 750W on a flat road and no wind. After the ride, the temp. of the motor was 115F and ambient temp. was 94F. VESC was nice and cool. I think that squeezing more than 30 mph out of this motor will be a challenge. It is not all bad because with that set-up I can cover a lot of miles on a single charge. However, power is additive so I bought a 8072 not sensored motor and ordered hall sensors, which I'm planning to put in that motor. I was looking at APS sensored motors, but they are 114mm long (actual size). Too long for my set-up. The motor I bought has a 12 mm shaft so I will build next version of a transmission specifically for that motor.
You can see my test ride video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZK7lXvnrHo

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Post by Mongo1 » Oct 18, 2017 12:21 pm

Nice job Ecyclist!! The entire setup (Motor/Xmission, chain drive) appear very stable. Motor temps are negligible which means you can squeeze more performance out of it without much stress. I suggest bumping voltage up to 48V to get additional speed.

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Re:

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 18, 2017 5:47 pm

Mongo1 wrote:Nice job Ecyclist!! The entire setup (Motor/Xmission, chain drive) appear very stable. Motor temps are negligible which means you can squeeze more performance out of it without much stress. I suggest bumping voltage up to 48V to get additional speed.
Thanks dude!
I would love to go up to 48V but that motor is rated up to 10S so pushing that much more might not be a good idea.
I already bought a motor that is good up to 13S .
8072 motor.JPG
8072 motor.JPG (83.88 KiB) Viewed 571 times
Unfortunately VESC is recommended up to 12S only.
I know that on esk8ts this is a problem because a motor is used as a brake, but on a mid drive e-bike this isn't the case, so maybe 13s is doable.
Any thoughts or threads about using VESC and 13S Li-ion battery on e-bike?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 18, 2017 11:23 pm

Many people could live/be happy with a 12 s pack.

Although the 18650 size packs that are sold commercially are mostly 10s/13s/ and some now 14s
Many
People here on E.S. use Hobby Lipo's , so there are many 6s packs and good chargers available , add to that the new kits that are available for making your own solderless 18650 packs, so making your own pack to what ever Series and Parallel configuration you want will be more commonplace .

So If you can get more speed out of that newer motor with a 12s pack that would be good enough.


Ecyclist wrote: Unfortunately VESC is recommended up to 12S only.
>
Any thoughts or threads about using VESC and 13S Li-ion battery on e-bike?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 01, 2017 11:58 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Many people could live/be happy with a 12 s pack.

Although the 18650 size packs that are sold commercially are mostly 10s/13s/ and some now 14s
Many
People here on E.S. use Hobby Lipo's , so there are many 6s packs and good chargers available , add to that the new kits that are available for making your own solderless 18650 packs, so making your own pack to what ever Series and Parallel configuration you want will be more commonplace .

So If you can get more speed out of that newer motor with a 12s pack that would be good enough.


Ecyclist wrote: Unfortunately VESC is recommended up to 12S only.
>
Any thoughts or threads about using VESC and 13S Li-ion battery on e-bike?
I warmed up to your idea, but for now I will stick with 10s6p set up.
10s is safer for VESC, specially with vector drive configuration. Charging battery 2x6s is not appealing to me either.
Thank you for the suggestion, anyway.
Going with 13s on VESC is no go in my book.
I have my new 8072 motor with new VESC running nicely. Next, I will install hall sensors. Fun, fun, fun.
Last edited by Ecyclist on Nov 02, 2017 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 02, 2017 2:14 am

If you already have a 10s pack I understand your not wanting to use 12s, at least not at this time anyway.

I have now 6 , 6s packs, that I am using on my Mac Motor Conversion, and they are going to last a while so I would be interested in using them, + I already am used to charging a single pack at a time anyway, and prefer a charging system that I use balance plugs / wires so I can balance the cells in each pack.

That new motor will accept up to 13s, then 12 s would be preferable to me. ( And others that have 6s hobby packs that they are using on their current bike )

What is the weight of the Motor/Transmission, Chain, Freewheel Crankset and anything else , not including the battery ?

Are you getting more speed on that new ( Red ) motor than the other ? or More Torque ?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 02, 2017 9:04 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:If you already have a 10s pack I understand your not wanting to use 12s, at least not at this time anyway.

I have now 6 , 6s packs, that I am using on my Mac Motor Conversion, and they are going to last a while so I would be interested in using them, + I already am used to charging a single pack at a time anyway, and prefer a charging system that I use balance plugs / wires so I can balance the cells in each pack.

That new motor will accept up to 13s, then 12 s would be preferable to me. ( And others that have 6s hobby packs that they are using on their current bike )

What is the weight of the Motor/Transmission, Chain, Freewheel Crankset and anything else , not including the battery ?

Are you getting more speed on that new ( Red ) motor than the other ? or More Torque ?
The kit (motor + transmission + mounts) is 4.63lbs. Adding a freewheel, and replacing with wider bottom bracket and ugly Chinese cranks are extra 1 - 1.5lbs.
So kit without battery adds to the bike about 6lbs.
At this point, I have the red motor on a test station. I will need to make a new, step down shaft and a new transmission mounting plate in order to put it to work. I hope that this motor will give me more torque and speed.
I'm actually eying another motor. APS just started to offer 8072 sensored motor with 10mm x 33mm shaft. Exactly what I need.
Are you running your Mac Motor with VESC?

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 02, 2017 11:58 pm

I built up the Mac conversion about 3 years ago,I did not even hear about a VESC until Kepler did his latest friction drive this last year, so the Mac uses the standard what many people call the Infineon controller,
12 fet version, with plug/wires to directly plug in the Cycle Analyst V 2.3 I also have on the bike.
It works very well, every other week I think about selling it, but then change my mind since it works so well , except for climbing steep hills like over 12% grade. It is the 6T one = Low torque / high speed one.
( I am now thinking about/will be selling my Q100 c CST , kit since the Mac works so well and I need to raise funds to buy a Mid-Drive )
I asked Paul or Joseph at Em3EV about the Max amount of current to put into it and they said up to 30 amps max. which is what the 12 fet controller can handle. I typically just adjust it to 26 amps max on the C.A. V2.3 .
I used to have , still do have a low amp output Li-ion pack 13s, but it it was rated at 20 amps max output,
the Hobby Lipo packs work so much better/ Mac feels so much better with more than 20 amps through it, so I am using the Hobby Lipo's now since they can handle a huge Amp output. ( I got the 25c 6 and 7s packs 5,800 mah and 5,000 mah )
Sometimes I run the 7 s packs on it 7s x2 for 14s , then another 7s x2 , it works just fine , although it might loose a couple points of effiecncy at 14s
So Mostly use the 6 s packs. ( 6s x 2 for 12s then another 2 6s together packs to bring amps up to 11.6 amp hour pack )
The VESC Programing confuses me so when I buy a kit with one I will have to have it programed by the seller for the kind of riding I want to do with it.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 03, 2017 6:24 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:I built up the Mac conversion about 3 years ago,I did not even hear about a VESC until Kepler did his latest friction drive this last year, so the Mac uses the standard what many people call the Infineon controller,
12 fet version, with plug/wires to directly plug in the Cycle Analyst V 2.3 I also have on the bike.
It works very well, every other week I think about selling it, but then change my mind since it works so well , except for climbing steep hills like over 12% grade. It is the 6T one = Low torque / high speed one.
( I am now thinking about/will be selling my Q100 c CST , kit since the Mac works so well and I need to raise funds to buy a Mid-Drive )
I asked Paul or Joseph at Em3EV about the Max amount of current to put into it and they said up to 30 amps max. which is what the 12 fet controller can handle. I typically just adjust it to 26 amps max on the C.A. V2.3 .
I used to have , still do have a low amp output Li-ion pack 13s, but it it was rated at 20 amps max output,
the Hobby Lipo packs work so much better/ Mac feels so much better with more than 20 amps through it, so I am using the Hobby Lipo's now since they can handle a huge Amp output. ( I got the 25c 6 and 7s packs 5,800 mah and 5,000 mah )
Sometimes I run the 7 s packs on it 7s x2 for 14s , then another 7s x2 , it works just fine , although it might loose a couple points of effiecncy at 14s
So Mostly use the 6 s packs. ( 6s x 2 for 12s then another 2 6s together packs to bring amps up to 11.6 amp hour pack )
The VESC Programing confuses me so when I buy a kit with one I will have to have it programed by the seller for the kind of riding I want to do with it.
Programming VESC can be intimidating, but it can be rewarding as well.
You can set it up all kind of ways, but you have to be thorough. So far, I've been careful and lucky. The cool thing about VESC is that it is very small and you don't need CA to make it run smoothly. Also, you can hook up the throttle directly without a servo tester. You can run it in FOC (Field Oriented Control AKA: Vector Drive). From what I understand, FOC is the most efficient way of running a brushless motor. VESC is pretty much it if comes to controllers. I just hope that someone will come up with VESC on steroids, but even the way it is now, it is good already.
I ordered 8072 motor with halls from APS.
I'm finally catching up with my work, so I will have time to finish my battery case.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 04, 2017 10:22 am

I agree that a VESC needs to be made " on steroids " , if you are thinking the same as me, that means to be able to
run on 14s / 16s/18s/20s battery packs with a good 40 and more amps continuously .

( it is the same with Hobby lipo's , they and the good balancing chargers , are not made in those size packs )

I will be able to understand how to program one, ... once a few video's are made that teach us step by step from start to finish, from people who use the VESC for e-bikes, ( not skateboards )
None of the Video's I have found so far do this, and are often shown too fast, ( clicking on one item then another then another to fast )

That is the Mistake that I have seen for years pertaining to anything with a computer, those that are showing us something go through many clicks and/or windows so fast we are trying to figure out what was done many clicks back , so get totally confused.

A Through , Complete , Slow enough to click pause before the next click/window open/etc. so that all can understand one adjustment before going on to the next, and explaining why that parameter / adjustment was made .

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 09, 2017 7:32 pm

The battery case is done.
Battery case 1.JPG
Battery case 1.JPG (90.64 KiB) Viewed 292 times
Battery case 2.JPG
Battery case 2.JPG (95.06 KiB) Viewed 292 times
The cradle for the battery is next.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by notger » Nov 13, 2017 1:12 pm

Whow, thats kind of what i wanted to make, just way more advanced an "modern".
My plan to make the Transmittion with Belts and chains and stuff, but Cycloidal Reduction opens up a new world.

So do you have any recommendations where to ordert Cycloidal Reduction - Stuff.
Or is it actually just possible to do it DIY making it fit 6473 or 8072 Motors ?

greets
Notger

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 13, 2017 7:29 pm

notger wrote:Whow, thats kind of what i wanted to make, just way more advanced an "modern".
My plan to make the Transmittion with Belts and chains and stuff, but Cycloidal Reduction opens up a new world.

So do you have any recommendations where to ordert Cycloidal Reduction - Stuff.
Or is it actually just possible to do it DIY making it fit 6473 or 8072 Motors ?

greets
Notger
As you can see from my posts, it can be done, but it's not that easy. I have tons of engineering and manufacturing experience, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it all out.
You can buy a motor with cycloidal transmission. Unfortunately, these transmissions are long because of the way bearings are stacked. They are not good for bike use. That's why I designed my own transmission. For now, my focus is on building a "perfect" ebike for myself. After I'm done with that, I will build a kit that will fit wide variety of, mostly mountain, bikes.
Belts and chain reducers are easier to build, and you can get most parts off the shelf. Buying a kit like the Lightning Rods is not a bad choice either.

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Mugenski » Nov 13, 2017 10:30 pm

Keeping an eye on this. Really nice little drive unit. I like it, keep up the great work! Love the styling of with the battery. Hopefully it doesn't exist only as a one (or two) off :wink:
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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Nov 15, 2017 8:23 pm

The battery is in.
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Avian with the battery installed.JPG
Avian with the battery installed.JPG (145.03 KiB) Viewed 193 times

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by sabongi » Nov 16, 2017 6:37 am

Brilliant!

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