JDMopar's KHS BBS02 Mid-Drive Build Thread

JDMopar

100 mW
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
46
Location
Connecticut, U.S.A
Edit: This thread began as a question about e bikes and inclement weather, but I changed the title because the direction has changed. It is now a build thread! You can see the original posts below and skip to page two to see build progress. As of 10/28/17 there is no progress except some hefty charges to my credit card.

The subject frame will be this old KHS DJ200 that has been migrating throughout my garage for the past 8 years plus. It's been stripped of all its useful parts except for handlebars and stem. (oh and the perfectly functional Avid BB5 which I will let go for $1+ the cost of shipping, including matching Avid brake lever! You must use it, I will be sad if you resell it. If this is still up then it's still available...)

I am currently an avid cyclist and commuter, but I haven't yet ventured into the e-world. The goal for this is to build a reasonably light and reliable commuter that can take me further and with less exertion, and that can be taken off road for mild mountain biking. I stress MILD, because I'm fully aware I won't be log-hopping or going headlong into rock gardens with this-I have a wreck-able mountain bike for that. Nothing more aggressive than easy singletrack/4x4 utility roads. I will absolutely do light off-road regularly, as one option of my current commute involves a nice stretch through the woods. I rarely take this option currently because it's a bit too strenuous in the morning on my gravel grinder.

YIW5YlAh.jpg


Edit: Now that it's nearly decided, I'll add the bike spec list here, just because it makes sense.

Frame: ~2005 KHS DJ200 15" Steel
E-drive: (From Luna) Bafang BBS02 750 Watt/48V Shark GA 13.5 Ah, DPC18 display.
Rims: Stans No Tubes MK3 27.5" 32 hole rear/28 hole front
Hubs: Novatec Superlite
Fork: Manitou Marvel Comp 100mm w/Remote Lockout
Brakes: Shimano Deore M615 203mm front, 160mm rear w/motor cut-out sensors.
Rear shifter: Shimano SLX 10-speed
Rear derailleur: Shimano SLX
Chainring: Raceface Narrow Wide? (the largest that will fit and still have a decent chainline)
Cassette: Shimano SLX 11-40t
Chain: KMC
Headset: FSA Orbit MX
Stem: Heavy Sette for now
Handlebar: Heavy Sette Duo for now
Seatpost: XLC Comp (in the annoyingly rare 26.8 mm diameter) & XLC seatclamp with built-in rack mounts.
Pedals: Shimano A530?
Accessories

Topeak MTX Rear rack



With that, and if you'd so choose, you can read my disjointed thought progression in its unadulterated confusion starting below. Thanks all for this wonderful forum; I'd be a good deal more lost without it.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Hello everyone, this is my first post here. I've been bicycle (non e-) commuting almost exclusively for a good while now. Typically unless I need to carry heavy bulky objects or there is torrential rain and lightning, I'm riding.

I never thought I would consider an e-bike because I really enjoy the workout. But I've just found that I cannot drive at all for the foreseeable future (long story and no it's not a legal issue). I would like to be able to take care of my own transportation as much as possible. This poses a problem with the imminent winter particularly. Cold I can deal with, but snow and ice are foes that I do not wish to challenge on roads that cars travel on. Anyway, obviously can't ride a bike-e or otherwise-in that weather, so there's nothing I can do but stay home or beg for a ride in that sort of weather. That's really just a tangent, I'm kind of letting a stream of conscience out... anyway, because I'm now going to depend on my bike rather than just prefer it, I'm considering an e-bike so that I can ride further distances with less effort, so not everything has to be a super workout, and to ride faster so as to be able to make most time commitments. But that means that I'm going to be riding in all sorts of weather (except for snow/ice) and I won't be able to just decide "Nah I'll just drive today"

So, to my questions: How many of you ride your e-bikes in all weather, and what steps did you take to make them weather proof, and have you had any weather-related issues?


I already have three bikes and I'm thinking about retrofitting one of them. I have a hardtail mountain bike I build up a few years ago, a Raleigh Willard gravel grinder, and a Giant Defy 2. I don't really want to touch the MTB or the Raleigh, but the Giant I'm willing to tear into a bit. I'm not quite sure where to start but I'm cruising this forum and finding some pretty great ideas.

edit: Okay I need to add these things.

Desired max speed: 25 mph would be nice
Desired max range: At least 15 miles
Preferred bike wheel size: 700C
Brake type of motor wheel: Road caliper (rim) brake
Rider weight: 165 pounds
Terrain: Lots of hills, some long, some short, this is in the northeast United States. For example, my relatively gentle normal commute is 5.2 miles with over 400 feet of elevation gain, and that's really all in a single hill.
Budget: less than $1000 for the kit, preferably quite a bit less.


Thanks all in advance.

P.S.... few pictures of my bikes.

2WaB8u8h.jpg


gt7aXz1h.jpg


OmbaBOah.jpg
 
$1000 will be the target, you do not want to spend less then that. You do not want to skimp on anything!
You'd should get a 10 or 12-15Ah battery, cant go wrong with a direct drive motor as its silent as can be, match it up with a Sinewave Controller. Look at the rear wheel Leaf 1500W motor, buy the kit that allows you to use the KT display. For all weather riding, the mountain bike should be your choice. Do not forget to buy Torque arms. You can buy the kit from Leafbike.com or Leafmotor.com, then you need to source a battery and torque arms. Go to ebikes.ca and dont forget your charger! I think you'd be very happy with that setup. Very efficient motor, good enough power to last forever, no need to upgrade in the future. Also look into puncture resistant tires, you can search it here on Endless Sphere. Also we need to know where you are, and add it to your user profile. northeast United State is a little vague.

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location will appear in every post so you won't have people asking where you are ever again. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum, and country is the most important. There are many cities with the same name all over the world. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.



Terrain: Lots of hills, some long, some short, this is in the northeast United States. For example, my relatively gentle normal commute is 5.2 miles with over 400 feet of elevation gain, and that's really all in a single hill.
Budget: less than $1000 for the kit, preferably quite a bit less.


-edit-
http://leafbike.com/products/diy-bike-conversion-kit/26-inch-electric-hub-motor-kit/newest-26-inch-48v-1500w-rear-hub-motor-bike-conversion-kit-987.html

http://leafbike.com/products/lithium-battery/48v-li-battery/48v-15ah-rack-lithium-ion-battery-1000.html

http://leafbike.com/products/electric-bike-parts/torque-arm/c-112/

Buy an extra throttle from Leafbike, something different then the one that comes with the kit. Its a spare, plus you can see if you like one or the other.

http://leafbike.com/products/electric-bike-parts/bike-tools/freewheel-remover-tool-856.html

http://leafbike.com/products/electric-bike-parts/bike-tools/spoke-spanner-wrench-920.html
 
I have been riding ebikes all year long for the last 8 years, in a city where winters are cold and snowy. Melting agents are making the bike dirty, and corrodes many components. So yes, you need to build for those extreme conditions, and to dress for it. Other than that, riding is ok most of the time. Icy conditions and deep snow are happening once in a while, those days are dangerous until the city workers are catching up. Usually it is ok in the afternoon.

Different places have their own conditions. Some are slow to clean the streets. Some are not using any melting agents. You need to adapt to the conditions that you ride. Studded tires are a must at some places. Good choice of tires is a must everywhere. Waterproofing all connectors is important, cleaning the bike often does save a lot of springtime maintenance.
 
Bikes/trikes *are* my transportation, for me, the dogs, and heavy / bulky cargo, and groceries (sometimes all at once). I ride in all weather here, but it rarely rains, and heat is more a problem than cold. See my SB Cruiser, CrazyBike2, Delta Tripper, and DayGlo Avenger threads for various information on what I've done to fix / prevent various weather problems.


FWIW, a trike will be easier to stay rubber-side-down on in icy conditions than a bike, but you'll still need studded tires for a good grip.


Below are links to lists of some threads on weather proofing and winterizing stuff, including clothing (heated or not) and studded tires. Not all threads in each list will be relevant, but you can tell from their titles, generally. SOme of them are troubleshooting threads for problems caused by weather, so those can help you avoid those problems.


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=winter*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=weather*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=water*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=stud*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
Thanks both of you. Good advice. I'll look into a different bike because I don't want to e-bike my dedicated mountain bike. I do have an old KHS hardtail frame...and a Marzocchi Shiver fork...hmmm...
 
amberwolf said:
Bikes/trikes *are* my transportation, for me, the dogs, and heavy / bulky cargo, and groceries (sometimes all at once). I ride in all weather here, but it rarely rains, and heat is more a problem than cold. See my SB Cruiser, CrazyBike2, Delta Tripper, and DayGlo Avenger threads for various information on what I've done to fix / prevent various weather problems.
.....

Thank you!

I'm definitely not going to buy a trike, but I get it. Studded/snow tires for sure, I've purchased snows for every car I've owned...Even my FWD Accord was a beast in the snow with them...and a bike would be no different.

Attached is a picture of the KHS frame I have. It's been bastardized over the years and now it will need bottom bracket/cranks/pedals, headset, wheels, seatpost/saddle etc...I have the fork but not pictured. The problem with it is that it's not as efficient to pedal as my Giant, and it would be nice to find something that could move okay even without electric assist...but my Giant probably won't accommodate snow tires because 700x30c is the very max of what I could squeeze in there. So I suppose something has to give.

Also I guess there are places in my regular riding routes that approach 10% inclines (edit: for short distances, but there are definitely stretches of half mile of 5-7%, and there is zero way to avoid the hills) so I suppose that's something to consider. I'm a fairly strong rider so I'll be able to "assist" the electric motor even when I'm not exerting a hell of a lot, but I should plan for the eventuality that I'm sick...over-tired...or otherwise incapable of adding much power to the bike.

YIW5YlAh.jpg
 
Since the KHS doesn't have any cranks/BB, you could look into the BBSxx drives, which replace those anyway. Since it goes thru the chain like pedal power, you shift gears for it, too, to make it better on hills or flats, etc. Wears chain/sprockets faster than you would, though. Lots of threads about them with pos/neg about various things.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=bbs*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


Personally I like the simplicity of DD hubs, but they're not as efficient as geared hubs or middrives like the BBSxx, if you have varied terrain and stop/go traffic, etc. Less to break, though, easier to fix. I'd rather build my own wheel with one than accept any of the pre-built ones (every prebuilt one I've worked with was anything from sub-par to junk, usually just because the spokes were too thick for the rim strength--thicker is not always better. Lots of posts about spokes/wheels around ES too).
 
amberwolf said:
Since the KHS doesn't have any cranks/BB, you could look into the BBSxx drives, which replace those anyway. Since it goes thru the chain like pedal power, you shift gears for it, too, to make it better on hills or flats, etc. Wears chain/sprockets faster than you would, though. Lots of threads about them with pos/neg about various things.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=bbs*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


Personally I like the simplicity of DD hubs, but they're not as efficient as geared hubs or middrives like the BBSxx, if you have varied terrain and stop/go traffic, etc. Less to break, though, easier to fix. I'd rather build my own wheel with one than accept any of the pre-built ones (every prebuilt one I've worked with was anything from sub-par to junk, usually just because the spokes were too thick for the rim strength--thicker is not always better. Lots of posts about spokes/wheels around ES too).

Great thanks! I'll consider mid drive. I'm not committed to anything yet; it seemed like rear drive was pretty popular but perhaps it's not best for my purposes.

I am capable of building my own wheels so that's a great option. And I agree with you about wheels and spokes, there's no reason not to use butted spokes...

I'm getting kind of stoked on this whole idea...hopefully I don't blow my budget...haha.

Thanks all for the advice so far.
 
I ride bikes year round, all weather. My e-bike I avoid when I know it will be rainy; I simply ride a pedal bike with fenders and drum brakes instead. When I get caught in rainy weather on the e-bike, I improvise with trash bags and tape to cover the battery and console as best I can.
 
I have to disagree about a mid drive to ride dirty winter conditions. I mean, the simpler the better when you ride snow and slush. Everything on the bike is less reliable in those conditions. I like a winter bike overbuilt for reliability. If you have a Shiver, you might have other DH components. That is what you should be using, for crank, brakes and wheels at least. Riding the hills is not a problem, you just need to build the power to climb. My hub builds can climb 20% fast enough to do jumps uphill, so don’t let anyone tell you that a mid drive is the only good solution to climb 10% on the street. Riding down the hills on slippery surfaces, you will be happy to have regen enabled, and a DD hub is the most reliable motorization for a bike, with minimal moving parts and maintenance.
 
MadRhino said:
I have to disagree about a mid drive to ride dirty winter conditions. I mean, the simpler the better when you ride snow and slush. Everything on the bike is less reliable in those conditions. I like a winter bike overbuilt for reliability. If you have a Shiver, you might have other DH components. That is what you should be using, for crank, brakes and wheels at least. Riding the hills is not a problem, you just need to build the power to climb. My hub builds can climb 20% fast enough to do jumps uphill, so don’t let anyone tell you that a mid drive is the only good solution to climb 10% on the street. Riding down the hills on slippery surfaces, you will be happy to have regen enabled, and a DD hub is the most reliable motorization for a bike, with minimal moving parts and maintenance.

Okay thanks, but I want to clarify that I have the single crown Shiver which is a bit beefier than a cross-country fork but still not a downhill fork...I realize now that the Shiver DC was much more common.

Also I should stress that while we get bad weather here, I shouldn't actually have to ride in snow a ton, so I think I'd prefer not to overbuild beyond a mild XC spec'd bike. But I'll keep that in mind.
 
markz said:
Best advice is jump right in and dont procrastinate, buy a kit and get to it.

Unfortunately I should really sell my Honda first. I'd love to keep it but it doesn't make sense to keep paying insurance on it and barely drive it, and I can't really afford it AND this e-bike project. I am keeping my old Dakota though and I have a project Subaru that will get attention when I have the money. Not sure when I'll be back to driving but I can't stay away from cars even if I'm not in the driver's seat.
 
All the more reason to jump on it and sell that motorcycle, and buy the Leaf 1500W direct drive motor kit. It is a lot of fun and the more you wait, the closer the snow and cold is coming. Use that KHS frame you got, use whatever you got available to you, or buy cheap used components from the online classifieds or ebay. Buy new what really should be bought new, bearings.
 
Rain and wind is no big problem, that's what a motor and good clothes (and long mudguards) are for.

For winter I converted an old bike 7(?) years ago with a front wheel drive and (legal) throttle based- torque control, which makes a nice 2WD drive together with my own pedaling.

Add some spike tires and you are fine for most situations.

Disc brakes would be much better though... A internal gear hub would be nice, too and the chain dies rather quick in salt water, but I only use my old chains from my various other bikes on this one.

If you have more deep snow than ice than I would recommend a MTB with thick spiked tires...

Last winter:

file.php


file.php


Doesn't look nice and will not win any price, but it does the intended job quite well since years.

Some years ago:

file.php
 

Attachments

  • Winterpedelec01.jpg
    Winterpedelec01.jpg
    137 KB · Views: 2,990
  • pedelec_im_Schnee1.jpg
    pedelec_im_Schnee1.jpg
    182.8 KB · Views: 2,990
JDMopar,
I ride in Canadian winter every year for last 10 years.
My winter ride is DD hub gearless EPLUS drive for last 2 winters before that it was TIDAL FORCE drive.
Alberta Canada where temp can easly reach minus 20 C.
Ice, snow, salt.
winter commuting is much more challenging than summer commuting.
And ebike must be reliable meaning near top components, studed tires, etc.
 
Thanks, that's some crazy weather to ride in!!! :shock:

I think I've decided to go with a DD rear hub. The Mac hubs look pretty attractive to me.

I'll keep it as reliable as possible. I'll go with cheaper Shimano hydraulic discs (with which I've had fantastic experience and are very reliable), probably a Deore XT or SRAM X9 1x9 drivetrain with a 40 or 42 tooth front ring, dual sided platform/SPD pedals, some nice 26x1.75 semi-slicks for summer and studded for winter.

Clothing wise I'm almost set except for some good warm gloves and perhaps good glasses. Probably it won't hit -20C here for more than a 2 or 3 day cold spell, but we'll certainly see -10C for stretches.

edit: also I'd spray the interior of the frame down with Fluid Film, great anti-corrosion stuff I use on all my cars. And of course keep a good lube on the chain and all derailleur pivots.
 
JDMopar said:
also I'd spray the interior of the frame down with Fluid Film, great anti-corrosion stuff I use on all my cars. And of course keep a good lube on the chain and all derailleur pivots.

Very good idea. Thought about adding exactly that (Fluid film treatment) to my post, but didn't know if it's available to you...
 
of course my Eplus ebikes is build weatherproof and rainproof .
I can ride in rain for an hour - no problem.
Especially winter ebike must be build rust - proof ,down to every screw, nut, etc stainless steel or brass.
connectors weatherproof Delphi brand.
every wire must enter from the bottom with loop.
with 1000W at the throttle pathway doesnt has to be clear of snow but it is better if cleared.
What is really important is NOT to push your ebike right into warm inside from say below zero ,
must be warm up GRADUALLY - you know why.
 
so devil is in details as usual if it comes to winter riding, components wiring, connectors must be quality, no cheap.
I cannot imagine stopping in the middle of nowhere to push back shoddy connectors.
 
One item I would add is a bright headlight and tail light set up. As you will probably ride when it is getting dark and maybe a little a little light rain and drivers may nit be able to see you. Helmet and a high visibility vest should also be added.
 
JDMopar said:
I think I've decided to go with a DD rear hub. The Mac hubs look pretty attractive to me.
Just so you know, the Mac (and BMC, puma, ezee, etc) is a geared hub, not DD.
 
You might check out Cordura fabric if you're in for a lot of rain. Gcindc's Idrive thread turned me on to it when I built my second bike. Last November, I wrapped all my connections with waterproof Nashua tape and made "temporary" covers for my battery/controller out of Cordura. The plan was to fab a more permanent box eventually but the fabric works so well I didn't bother. I'm in Portland so I see a lot of rain.
Also with rain make sure you have drying space for your rain gear. Saturday it dumped so hard I left a car-sized puddle on my garage floor. The important parts were all dry though.
 
my general rule for riding in winter is to ride away from cars as far away as possible, the reason?
salty mist cars trail behind which I definitely do not want .
unless they dont salt roads in your area.
 
Back
Top