hand throttle instead of pedal assist

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ioniamichael
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hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Nov 28, 2017 5:16 pm

Hello dear friends.
I have a hybrid electric bike from a2b ultra motor hybrid 26" ( like in the picture ).
As I said before, these bikes are hybrid and the engine only works when pedaling.
I very much want to connect a hand throttle instead of pedal assist.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this?
Can anyone advise me how to do this?
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ultra-motor-a2b-hybrid-26-wheel-2011-electric-bike-EV149574-9999-1.jpg
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MadRhino
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by MadRhino » Nov 28, 2017 5:59 pm

Most controllers that are on PAS ebikes have a connector for a throttle. Then all you have to do is to buy a cheap throttle of your choice and plug it. If your controller doesn’t have a throttle connector, you’d have to replace it, or find the proper place on the board to wire one yourself.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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ioniamichael
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Nov 28, 2017 6:45 pm

Can you direct me to this controller? I can not find him on the bike, is he in the engine? These are special bikes, I have no idea where the controller is.

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by MadRhino » Nov 28, 2017 7:35 pm

I don’t know your bike. It is unlikely to be inside the motor. From the pic, I would guess under the frame over the front of the rear wheel, or fitted on the battery rack. Follow the motor wires, they have to go to the controller. :wink:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by amberwolf » Nov 29, 2017 4:25 am

you might look at these
search.php?keywords=a2b+throttle&terms= ... mit=Search

FWIW, the controller *is* inside the motor on at least some A2B bikes:
search.php?keywords=a2b+controller*&ter ... mit=Search

there's more A2B threads if you search on just that

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fechter
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Nov 29, 2017 10:33 am

At some point, A2B started using external controllers. If it's the internal (inside the motor) type, your options will be very limited.

Start by looking closely at the wires coming out of the motor. Bikes with the internal controller will have 2 heavy wires and a bunch of skinny wires. External controller will have 3 heavy wires and a bunch of skinny wires. You might need to unplug the connectors to tell if the wires are fat or skinny because they're bundled in a cable.

My A2B doesn't have PAS, only throttle. I'm not sure how their PAS sensor works, but it may be possible to take the wires going to the PAS sensor and connect them to a throttle instead. A close up picture of the PAS sensor and connector might help. This will be around the bottom bracket somewhere.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by amberwolf » Nov 29, 2017 2:30 pm

fechter wrote:
Nov 29, 2017 10:33 am
I'm not sure how their PAS sensor works, but it may be possible to take the wires going to the PAS sensor and connect them to a throttle instead.
I'd venture that it's unlikely to work that way--unless they have a torque-sensing BB like the THUN/etc that outputs an analog voltage, it's highly likely to be a pulse-train output simply counting PAS revolutions. This means you'd have to take the throttle's analog voltage and convert it into a pulse train that is higher in frequency the faster you want to go (probably). Even if the BB is an analog voltage it's unlikely to be the same as a throttle voltage range (at least, the ones I've worked with so far aren't).

It's easy to find out though--use a volt meter on the PAS wires and see how it changes. If the voltage goes in big swings from 0V to full voltage, and changes more often the faster the pedals are moved, it's a pulse train type.

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Nov 29, 2017 3:12 pm

You're right. That's why I'd like to see what the sensor/connector looks like.

It wouldn't be too hard to make something that generates pulses depending on throttle position but not sure that would give you the desired result.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Nov 29, 2017 5:13 pm

Hello again friends,
Thank you very much for all the answers.
I photographed everything I could, an engine, a motion sensor.
By the way, look at which capacitor connects to the battery, maybe the controller is inside the battery?
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Nov 29, 2017 10:11 pm

The rear battery connector looks pretty standard. No controller inside there.

On the side of the wheel opposite the chain, there is a cable coming out of the axle that runs along the swing arm toward the pedals. That's the one we need to check out. Try tracing that line and look for some kind of connector. The Metro has a connector about half way to the pedals that makes removing the rear wheel possible. We need to unplug those connectors and see the pins.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Nov 30, 2017 10:19 am

I was trying to find a manual for that bike, but didn't have much luck. I found a view online only version but hard to know if it is the right vintage.

From the manual:
Electrical specification, motor controller
• Control function: current, voltage, temperature, speed, torque
• Power supply light: 6 V, 7 W
• Position: in motor hub

The A2B has a 'true pedal assist' function, this means
the motor engages only when the rider is pedalling. So
you can get places under your own steam yet have
the comfort of the electric motor giving you that extra
boost along the way.
The A2B is equipped with a Torque Sensor, which means
as soon as you start to pedal, you'll feel the motor kick
in to complement your pedalling – making riding an
effortless pleasure.


Below is a diagram of how to remove the rear wheel. You can see the connectors along the swing arm. We need to see the pins:
A2B wheel instructions.JPG
A2B wheel instructions.JPG (141.47 KiB) Viewed 477 times
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ioniamichael
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

fechter wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 10:19 am
I was trying to find a manual for that bike, but didn't have much luck. I found a view online only version but hard to know if it is the right vintage.

From the manual:
Electrical specification, motor controller
• Control function: current, voltage, temperature, speed, torque
• Power supply light: 6 V, 7 W
• Position: in motor hub

The A2B has a 'true pedal assist' function, this means
the motor engages only when the rider is pedalling. So
you can get places under your own steam yet have
the comfort of the electric motor giving you that extra
boost along the way.
The A2B is equipped with a Torque Sensor, which means
as soon as you start to pedal, you'll feel the motor kick
in to complement your pedalling – making riding an
effortless pleasure.


Below is a diagram of how to remove the rear wheel. You can see the connectors along the swing arm. We need to see the pins:

A2B wheel instructions.JPG
thank you very much for your answer .
Tomorrow I'll unplug the wheel and see what happens there.
In the meantime, it's the connections that get out of the engine. It is enough ? Or is it still necessary to dismantle a wheel?

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 01, 2017 10:24 am

ioniamichael wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

thank you very much for your answer .
Tomorrow I'll unplug the wheel and see what happens there.
In the meantime, it's the connections that get out of the engine. It is enough ? Or is it still necessary to dismantle a wheel?
No need to remove the wheel. Just a good look at those connectors going to it.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 01, 2017 12:47 pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 10:24 am
ioniamichael wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

thank you very much for your answer .
Tomorrow I'll unplug the wheel and see what happens there.
In the meantime, it's the connections that get out of the engine. It is enough ? Or is it still necessary to dismantle a wheel?
No need to remove the wheel. Just a good look at those connectors going to it.
It's the connections that get out of the engine
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 01, 2017 1:50 pm

OK, that has the controller inside the motor. It looks just like the Metro connectors, so I assume the motor is the same. I think you could get a throttle from a Metro and just plug it in. But one of those might be hard to find. You could use a generic throttle and splice the wires. Let me dig around and see if I can find the wiring for Metro throttle.

The Metro has battery indicator LEDs on the throttle body. You may need to come up with a different battery indicator. There are some very inexpensive digital voltmeters you could just put across the battery wires which would be better than the LED.

What does your bike have for a battery meter?

If you follow the small 5 pin wire toward the pedals, can you see where the pedal sensor is?

Edit: here is the wiring diagram for the Metro. My guess is the motor part is exactly the same but the Switch Module is different. Anyway the wire colors are shown. The line marked EAI is the throttle signal. A standard hall effect throttle will work.
A2B Metro wiring diagram.JPG
A2B Metro wiring diagram.JPG (55.42 KiB) Viewed 389 times
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ioniamichael
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 02, 2017 9:30 am

fechter wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 1:50 pm
OK, that has the controller inside the motor. It looks just like the Metro connectors, so I assume the motor is the same. I think you could get a throttle from a Metro and just plug it in. But one of those might be hard to find. You could use a generic throttle and splice the wires. Let me dig around and see if I can find the wiring for Metro throttle.

The Metro has battery indicator LEDs on the throttle body. You may need to come up with a different battery indicator. There are some very inexpensive digital voltmeters you could just put across the battery wires which would be better than the LED.

What does your bike have for a battery meter?

If you follow the small 5 pin wire toward the pedals, can you see where the pedal sensor is?

Edit: here is the wiring diagram for the Metro. My guess is the motor part is exactly the same but the Switch Module is different. Anyway the wire colors are shown. The line marked EAI is the throttle signal. A standard hall effect throttle will work.

A2B Metro wiring diagram.JPG
A cable with five ends splits, and three of them go in that direction.
Can I cut it and try to connect throttle?

And what is this sensor?
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by docw009 » Dec 02, 2017 11:48 am

Fechter has you covered. Follow his guidelines. I just want to add my comment to your "What is this sensor?" question.

Does your rear derailleur mounting plate resemble this one? That's from a design where they incorporated the PAS sensor into the derailleur mount. They can also put a torque sensor there. Since your A2B has both PAS and torque sensing, I suspect it uses the same module and those are the wires that disappear into the derailleur plate. Don't touch them.

Image

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 02, 2017 12:23 pm

ioniamichael wrote:
Dec 02, 2017 9:30 am

A cable with five ends splits, and three of them go in that direction.
Can I cut it and try to connect throttle?

And what is this sensor?
That's what I would try. I have no idea if the wire colors are going to match the Metro though. With a voltmeter, you should be able to verify.
Throttle will need 3 wires. One is ground, which will be electrically connected to the main power black wire. Check with ohmmeter. One will be 6.5v above ground but you need to power on bike and measure. During this test, there is a chance the motor could run, so be sure to get the rear wheel off the ground or put the bike upside down. Once you determine ground and 6.5v, the remaining one will be the signal. Note: it's 6.5v on the Metro, but anything around 5v is OK.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 02, 2017 12:43 pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 02, 2017 12:23 pm
ioniamichael wrote:
Dec 02, 2017 9:30 am

A cable with five ends splits, and three of them go in that direction.
Can I cut it and try to connect throttle?

And what is this sensor?
That's what I would try. I have no idea if the wire colors are going to match the Metro though. With a voltmeter, you should be able to verify.
Throttle will need 3 wires. One is ground, which will be electrically connected to the main power black wire. Check with ohmmeter. One will be 6.5v above ground but you need to power on bike and measure. During this test, there is a chance the motor could run, so be sure to get the rear wheel off the ground or put the bike upside down. Once you determine ground and 6.5v, the remaining one will be the signal. Note: it's 6.5v on the Metro, but anything around 5v is OK.
I do not have an ohmmeter.
Can I just try to connect the throttle in different variations and see if it works? Or can I burn something?

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 02, 2017 1:21 pm

You could possibly fry something with random connections.

Can you see the wire colors on the 3 that go toward the sensor?
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 02, 2017 1:33 pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 02, 2017 1:21 pm
You could possibly fry something with random connections.

Can you see the wire colors on the 3 that go toward the sensor?
The colors of the cables are black, blue and brown.
And the wires lead from this sensor to the screen on the steering wheel

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 04, 2017 12:26 pm

Can anyone help with the problem? :)

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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 04, 2017 3:21 pm

If you follow the wires coming out of the motor, where do they go? On the Metro, there's a plastic cover on the bottom of the frame by the pedals and a bunch of connections inside there. You want to see if there is a convenient place to tap into the motor wires. From what I've seen so far, I would guess they pass through the frame and head toward the display unit. If there's a connector somewhere between (other than the one on the chainstay), it would be a good spot to try.

If there are no connectors between the motor connection and the display, then your only option would be to cut into the wire. You want this to be in a spot where you can protect it from rain, etc. after you do the work. If you use a sharp blade, you can flex the cable and carefully split the jacket without hitting the individual wires inside. A lengthwise slice will allow you to open the jacket and look at the wires inside. On the Metro, there are 4 wires inside that cable. If the colors match the Metro, then good chance to hook it up without metering the lines, but to be safe, you will really need to test with a voltmeter.

You can get a cheap voltmeter for around $10.
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by ioniamichael » Dec 08, 2017 2:46 pm

Hello again friend,
I got the tool you were talking about. Can you explain briefly how to use it?
The first time I hold this thing in hand =]
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Re: hand throttle instead of pedal assist

Post by fechter » Dec 08, 2017 8:22 pm

That looks like a great meter (nicer than some of mine).

The trick is to make contact with the lines running from the motor connector up to the display unit. The pins on the connector are very small and easy to short. If there is another connector further up the line, it might be easier to probe.

What I do for those connectors is to find a short length of skinny solid wire that fits into the socket and twist the other end around the tip of the (red) probe, maybe with some tape. The black probe needs to go to the fat black wire on the motor power connection, but the connector has to be connected. Same trick with the skinny wire works if you wrap the end around the prong on the connector, then plug it in. Everything is referenced to the fat black wire (battery negative).

Then with the skinny wire connector unplugged, power up and measure the voltage on each pin. We can go from there.
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