Sortimo electric cargo trikes

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LockH
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Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by LockH » Jan 18, 2018 8:50 pm

Hehe... ESB "Search found 0 matches: sortimo"... as in Sortimo electric cargo trikes... seen (briefly) in a YT vid re the IAA - Internationale Automobil-Ausstellung in 2016... re the 2017 show, then upcoming:
Sortimo.jpg
Sortimo.jpg (37.55 KiB) Viewed 404 times
... seen here on a YT vid:


Turns out, from these folks:
https://www.sortimo.de/shop/en/Cargo-bi ... 551?q=:tsa

BTW... (They say:)
1897
First IAA held at the Hotel Bristol in Berlin.
... and:
This is where technology firms, the automotive industry, service providers, cities, startups and disruptors come together to shape the future of logistics.
... and the esw GROUP says:
http://www.esw-group.eu/aktuelles_en.php
"Future now" at the 67th IAA Cars
22.08.2017
The Current trend in the automotive industry, such as lightweight, electric and hybrid drives as well as autonomous driving, change the classic automotive industry and therefore the requirements of the modern supplier industry. The 67th International Motor Show (IAA) Cars will run under the slogan “Future now,” dedicated to the core topics of automotive transformation.

The esw GROUP faces these challenges and will be showing its products at the IAA in Frankfurt from 14th to 24th September 2017, among others, in the areas of seatbelt tensioner, restraint and door check link systems, which are an essential part of safety and reliability for the people of today and tomorrow.

Visit us at the pavilion of LEG Thuringia

Hall 4.0, Stand C27.
... and they note:
67th IAA Commercial Vehicles
Hanover, September 20-27, 2018

Fairgrounds of Deutsche Messe, Hermesallee, D-30521 Hanover
Sorry if this post/message "too dense" for some?
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 18, 2018 10:03 pm

Good design that could be built with lots of power.

For the price they are selling it, they should list the components. Their lack of details is making them look unprofessional.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 18, 2018 11:49 pm

Like most leaning trikes, it's an expensive, heavy, and complicated way to do something that you could do cheaper, lighter, and simpler with two wheels.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by LockH » Jan 18, 2018 11:56 pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 10:03 pm
Good design that could be built with lots of power.
For the price they are selling it, they should list the components. Their lack of details is making them look unprofessional.
Watt? They say: "Further detailed information about the ProCargo CT1 is available in the current brochure."
... and stuff like:
https://www.sortimo.de/fileadmin/user_u ... ahrrad.pdf

"ProCargo CT Motor: Bosch Performance Line Cruise CX 25 km/h"
"Akku: Bosch PowerPack 500 Wh Rahmenakku" (Re the battery...)

Sprich nicht Deutsch? :mrgreen:
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 19, 2018 1:49 am

LockH wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 11:56 pm

Sprich nicht Deutsch? :mrgreen:
Ja natürlich. Ich habe das PDF verpasst. dank
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by amberwolf » Jan 19, 2018 2:21 am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 11:49 pm
Like most leaning trikes, it's an expensive, heavy, and complicated way to do something that you could do cheaper, lighter, and simpler with two wheels.
Perhaps, but a few possible points that I considered while pondering options on my BarkFiet ideas:

--with a load of cargo, the difference in weight from a bike version is probably not very much. (assuming heavy enough cargo to "need" something like this).

--two wheels (in front) gives a bit more grip in turns than one, and a bit more front braking power (larger contact patch), assuming the same size wheels used on bike vs trike.

--might require a bit less skill in turning sharply with a load and not sliding out the front wheel and crashing, under adverse conditions.

--for those riders not strong enough to support the loaded bike upright at every stop, the trike would hold it up for them, especially if it has a tilt-lock. (This could also ease loading and unloading, though a good double-leg stand built into the cargo area (widest point of the base) would do that too, so it's not that much of a plus for the trike)



Negatives,
--more complex so more stuff to wear/break
--more expensive to make / buy

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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Papa » Jan 19, 2018 4:46 am

Tilting designs offer NO advantages at lower speeds - and if hauling cargo, reduced payload capacity. And hauling on slick streets??.. Forget it. You can build significantly cheaper and carry far more payload with a non-tilting, 3-wheeled delta platform.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 19, 2018 10:11 am

Papa wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 4:46 am
Tilting designs offer NO advantages at lower speeds - and if hauling cargo, reduced payload capacity. And hauling on slick streets??.. Forget it. You can build significantly cheaper and carry far more payload with a non-tilting, 3-wheeled delta platform.
That is the purpose exactly: A trike that does handle speed and power safely.
Because that is the most important turn off to trikes, to have horrible handling at speed.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Papa » Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:11 am
That is the purpose exactly: A trike that does handle speed and power safely.
Because that is the most important turn off to trikes, to have horrible handling at speed.
Help me out here... I'm a bit foggy about your statement.

Are you implying that non-tilting, utility trikes are slow and unsafe?
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 19, 2018 3:57 pm

Papa wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:11 am
That is the purpose exactly: A trike that does handle speed and power safely.
Because that is the most important turn off to trikes, to have horrible handling at speed.
Help me out here... I'm a bit foggy about your statement.

Are you implying that non-tilting, utility trikes are slow and unsafe?
They are unsafe unless they are slow, if you need more precision.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 19, 2018 4:20 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 2:21 am
Chalo wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 11:49 pm
...something that you could do cheaper, lighter, and simpler with two wheels.
Perhaps, but a few possible points that I considered while pondering options on my BarkFiet ideas:
[...]
In addition to everything you said, there's also the ability to put cargo in between the front wheels. So you can have a shorter wheelbase for any given total capacity.

It still seems like a mighty roundabout way to make a vehicle that does what a bicycle does.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Papa wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm
Are you implying that non-tilting, utility trikes are slow and unsafe?
I think he's not implying it, but saying it. And it's true. Like for like, the trike will put you on your head sooner, at a lower speed, than any two-wheeler.

I've been working with one of my friends to design an e-pedicab that can carry six passengers. So I don't dispute that you can carry more stuff on a conventional trike than you can on a bike or a tilting trike, but you do have to keep it relatively slow and be mindful of slopes.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Papa » Jan 19, 2018 5:15 pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 4:29 pm
Papa wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm
Are you implying that non-tilting, utility trikes are slow and unsafe?
I think he's not implying it, but saying it. And it's true. Like for like, the trike will put you on your head sooner, at a lower speed, than any two-wheeler.

I've been working with one of my friends to design an e-pedicab that can carry six passengers. So I don't dispute that you can carry more stuff on a conventional trike than you can on a bike or a tilting trike, but you do have to keep it relatively slow and be mindful of slopes.
A dime-store-5mph granny trike perhaps,.. But otherwise.. verifiable nonsense.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by dustNbone » Jan 19, 2018 5:40 pm

In comparison to 2 wheelers, and to a lesser degree tilting three wheelers, the fact that a non tilting trike is slower around corners and more likely to fall over while turning is a matter of simple and well understood physics. It's not a matter of opinion, and certainly not "verifiable nonsense".

Even with a tilting delta trike, due to weight transfer, in a corner you're effectively riding a bicycle with the wheels offset because the outside front wheel is providing very little grip. Even worse, you're lacking the gyroscopic force that a tilted front wheel on a bike uses to stabilize itself while it's changing direction, although with lightweight bicycle wheels rotating fairly slowly this force is minimal anyway.

That thing really looks like it would be better off as a 4 wheeler with conventional coil over shock suspension, but of course that would make it a car in most jurisdictions.

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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 19, 2018 5:56 pm

Papa wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 5:15 pm
Chalo wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 4:29 pm
Like for like, the trike will put you on your head sooner, at a lower speed, than any two-wheeler.
A dime-store-5mph granny trike perhaps,.. But otherwise.. verifiable nonsense.
The trikes I work to design and build are the best in the business. They start at about $6k including passenger carriage. Track width is closer to four feet. But there is nothing we or anybody else can do to make them as safe at speed as a two wheeler.

https://precisionpedicab.com/

All you have to do to verify that trikes are less stable than bikes is to ride one.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Papa » Jan 19, 2018 8:01 pm

dustNbone wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 5:40 pm
In comparison to 2 wheelers, and to a lesser degree tilting three wheelers, the fact that a non tilting trike is slower around corners and more likely to fall over while turning is a matter of simple and well understood physics.
And not whisper of detailed physics or multi-track vehicle dynamics to substantiate your claim... :roll:
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Cars don't use three wheels to go fast, either. And three-wheeled cars, like three-wheeled "bikes", are known for overturning easily. I don't know what your beef is; this is just a matter of simple fact.

The only way to keep from tumbling a trike when things get fast and festive is to put the center of gravity much lower than would be necessary for a two- or four-wheeler. There's no room for cargo in that formula.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 19, 2018 9:35 pm

Maybe the misunderstanding is coming from Papa’s perception of ‘fast’

If you find that 25 Mph is fast then yes, some cargo trikes are safe to ride fast. That is if you are keeping from cornering aggressively.

On a leaning trike, I would feel confident riding 60 Mph and overtaking a car inside a turn.

Got it ?
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by gogo » Jan 20, 2018 10:00 am

dustNbone wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 5:40 pm
In comparison to 2 wheelers, and to a lesser degree tilting three wheelers, the fact that a non tilting trike is slower around corners and more likely to fall over while turning is a matter of simple and well understood physics. It's not a matter of opinion, and certainly not "verifiable nonsense".

Even with a tilting delta trike, due to weight transfer, in a corner you're effectively riding a bicycle with the wheels offset because the outside front wheel is providing very little grip. Even worse, you're lacking the gyroscopic force that a tilted front wheel on a bike uses to stabilize itself while it's changing direction, although with lightweight bicycle wheels rotating fairly slowly this force is minimal anyway.

That thing really looks like it would be better off as a 4 wheeler with conventional coil over shock suspension, but of course that would make it a car in most jurisdictions.
Delta means two wheels in the rear. These Delta trikes don't tip over: http://www.vigillante.com/vigillante2.htm
Cornering and Handling
With a very low center of gravity and most of the weight over the two widely-spaced rear drive tires (the only tires that can handle the transverse cornering forces), and a very low polar moment of inertia, cornering is incredible. The maximum theoretical tip-over limit is calculated to be 3.27 lateral "g", so the Vig will slide on dry pavement with street tires long before it reaches its tip-over limit. Our original design, the TriVetteTM that was designed in 1974, actually out cornered a Corvette of that time by 10% (verified by independent testing by an enthusiast magazine). And, it still had a 0.5 "g" safety margin before reaching the tip-over limit. Later testing by the Department of Transportation showed the TriVette to be one of the most stable and best handling vehicles they had tested. It out cornered and out handled virtually all four-wheeled production vehicles. Their conclusion was that three-wheeled vehicles can corner and handle just as well as four-wheeled vehicles if the physics are done correctly. Also, the very low polar moment of inertia yields very quick transient responses to steering inputs.

Braking
As incredible as the acceleration and cornering capabilities are, the most astounding capability of the Vigillante is its braking performance. The Vigillante will stop at 1 "g" (with high performance tires), but the most amazing thing is how it handles under braking in slick road conditions. Most of the weight is on the rear tires at static loading, and under hard braking some weight is transferred to the front tire. At 1 "g" deceleration, approximately 33% of the vehicle weight is on each tire, with approximately 66% of the vehicle weight on the rear tires, behind the center of gravity (CofG). That means the vehicle is in the dynamically stable condition.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Chalo » Jan 20, 2018 3:24 pm

gogo wrote:
Jan 20, 2018 10:00 am
Delta means two wheels in the rear. These Delta trikes don't tip over: http://www.vigillante.com/vigillante2.htm
That looks like a real cargo champ there. Probably also a honey in city traffic, with great visibility and maneuverability in tight quarters.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by mrzed » Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm

In the end, it doesn't matter what direction you point the triangle and how you suspend it, it's still going to be less capable of leaning into the turn than 2 wheels and less stable off camber than 4. I'm no engineer, but this just seems like geometry.

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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 21, 2018 1:13 pm

Well, we can play with geometry and weight distribution at the extremes for specific purposes. Of course we can build a dragster trike, a drifting trike or a flying trike.
Yet it would be pointless to bring a Ferrari for an example in a discussion about front end loaders, for its design characteristics are not applicable to the usage requirements.
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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by LockH » Jan 21, 2018 4:18 pm

^^ Hehe... and I'll suggest the "End Game" is to provide wheeled transportation for urban folks over "shorter" distances at "slower" speeds, while including in vehicle design options to add on/include spaces ie/eg for "extra weight aka stuff" eg groceries, kids, etc.

TO HELP KILL off use of any/all ("large", "heavy", "expensive", etc etc) vehicles used for personal travels. (While getting around town quicker - saving many lots of money at the same time...) and personally, have found monies saved better "wasted" as "vacations".

:wink:
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(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 15&t=60564

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Re: Sortimo electric cargo trikes

Post by Papa » Jan 21, 2018 5:31 pm

LockH wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 4:18 pm
^^ Hehe... and I'll suggest the "End Game" is to provide wheeled transportation for urban folks over "shorter" distances at "slower" speeds, while including in vehicle design options to add on/include spaces ie/eg for "extra weight aka stuff" eg groceries, kids, etc.

TO HELP KILL off use of any/all ("large", "heavy", "expensive", etc etc) vehicles used for personal travels. (While getting around town quicker - saving many lots of money at the same time...) and personally, have found monies saved better "wasted" as "vacations".

:wink:
my sedimants exactly!!! Thank you Lock,
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