Assembling a safe fast ebike

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NeedForSpeed
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Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by NeedForSpeed » Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm

I'm assembling my first high-ish power ebike (~3k-5k watts), and not wanting to die, I'm wondering what are the inherent dangerous aspects of a fast 2 wheel vehicle (the vehicle itself, not external factors like other cars). I want my ebike to be as safe as possible at high speeds (UPDATE: ie around 40-50mph, not much more than that), so I'm attempting to explore what it is that differentiates a (i'm assuming safer) DOT approved motorcycle from my hobby ebike, e.g. tires that can handle high speeds.

Has anyone given thought to this? So far all I can think of is wheel/tires that can handle high speeds/potholes, but I'm stumped what else could impact the safety of a high speed ebike. What else can go wrong at high speeds?
Last edited by NeedForSpeed on Jan 20, 2018 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by e-beach » Jan 19, 2018 11:13 pm

NeedForSpeed wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm
I'm assembling my first high-ish power ebike (~3k-5k watts), and not wanting to die, I'm wondering what are the inherent dangerous aspects of a fast 2 wheel vehicle (the vehicle itself, not external factors like other cars). I want my ebike to be as safe as possible at high speeds, so I'm attempting to explore what it is that differentiates a (i'm assuming safer) DOT approved motorcycle from my hobby ebike, e.g. tires that can handle high speeds.

Has anyone given thought to this? So far all I can think of is wheel/tires that can handle high speeds/potholes, but I'm stumped what else could impact the safety of a high speed e-bike. What else can go wrong at high speeds?
Ok, define high speeds. First thing to know is that a bicycle is not a motorcycle. It is not even a scooter. Bicycle parts are not meant to be used at highway speeds the way motorcycle parts are.

As far as it goes lots of ES members have considered high speeds. I, myself don't go high speeds around my city because the car just don't see bicycles. How do I know? I have been hit by a car riding my e-bike. That is not to mention the close call when a car cut me off and stopped in front of me and I literally flipped my bike in the process of stopping. The only thing worse then flying over the handlebars and looking up from the wet gutter at a front wheel of a car is seeing the sidewalk coming before smashing your head into it after being hit by a car.

The problem with trying to stop from a high speed on a bicycle is that you don't enough tire surface to stop a heavy bike. You can lock up your rear tire but you will still skid for a while. Hit the front brake too hard and you wash-out or skid straight into what ever you are stopping for. Or flip over the handlebars if your front break is too good.

That being said those who use fast motors use moped rims and tires to become more motorcycle like. You should use a very well built DH frame and forks and scooter rims and tires.

And you should make sure your neck is a swivel because the cars are the most of your problems, not your least.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by NeedForSpeed » Jan 20, 2018 12:07 am

Thanks for the reply!

I should have been more specific as you mentioned. High speeds as in greater than ~35mph/60kph.

My current build (that my question is around) is a custom build off an Electric Enduro frame with primarily beefy DH bike parts.

I don't plan on riding at high speeds often, particularly in the city, for the reasons you mentioned, it's more so on the occasional time when I have a straight-away. with no cars in sight, and I also plan on doing most of my riding off-road, so it's more of a "this is a bike mainly using mountain bike parts... and I want to go fast, what could go wrong"

And yes, I totally agree as a neck swivel, I've been riding a lower powered ebike for the past few months and I totally understand that cars never, ever, ever, see you! Kind of fascinating tbh but understandable as a car driver myself.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MadRhino » Jan 20, 2018 12:50 am

Yep, I agree that fast is not the same fast for everyone.

Skills are not the same either, and so tuning knowledge, maintenance and consciousness. Add perception of risk, riding style, years of experience...
Different riders, different bikes.

My bikes are all bicycle components, including wheels and tires. Actual top speed of my city commuter is well above 70 Mph and I hit 60 a few times everyday in the summer. Riding in the city a 70 lbs bike that leaves any scooter far behind and beat most notorcycles on a start, does require a solid riding background. It is dangerous, but with conscious choice of components, building, tuning and maintenance, the bike itself can be safe and reliable. Never one of my ebikes did cause a crash for any failure.

I’ve never hit a car unless I decided to, and never got hit, in the last 8 years riding fast ebikes a lot of mileage. A few times I had to lay the bike down and take a slide, but never got hurt more than scratches and burns. I crash in mountain trails a few times every season, without any major body damage. I know how to avoid, and to handle a crash, keep relax and choose the best landing, because I did crash hundreds of times in my life. Worst of all, I wear minimal protection: Boots, gloves and glasses all the time, and a helmet when I have to.

Yet, consider that I have been riding all my life, horses, motorcycles dirt and street, DH and all sort of bikes, for more than 50 years. If you are not a rider deep inside and willing to live with pain as consequence, don’t do what I do. If you don’t know bikes and components, and tuning and maintenance... Build more robust and ride slower.

By the time I wrote this, you had said 60 kmh. That is not fast by my standard. I can leave the handlebar an look behind at that speed. You see, different riders, different requirements, different bikes.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by amberwolf » Jan 20, 2018 1:53 am

NeedForSpeed wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm
<snip>
(UPDATE: ie around 40-50mph, not much more than that), so I'm attempting to explore what it is that differentiates a (i'm assuming safer) DOT approved motorcycle from my hobby ebike, e.g. tires that can handle high speeds.

Has anyone given thought to this?
Yes, there are many threads about it. A small sample are listed in the "I"m a noob and want to go 50MPH" thread and ES Wiki article, and in this search
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search
NeedForSpeed wrote:
Jan 20, 2018 12:07 am
And yes, I totally agree as a neck swivel, I've been riding a lower powered ebike for the past few months and I totally understand that cars never, ever, ever, see you!
They *can* see you depending on what and how you ride. Whether they will bother to try, or care even if they do, is a whole other thing.

One of the many reasons I prefer my "wierd" bike / trike builds is that people definitely see them--but I never count on that, and still ride as if I was invisible. ;)

I don't assume they see my turn signals or braking lights either, day or night, but most of the time I can tell they do (even if they choose to ignore them).

I also ride as (a slow) part of traffic, and not as if traffic was just around me (though often enough, it is just flowing around me; I'm not trying to move around traffic, not riding past it when it's all stopped, I wait with it, which makes for less risk of dooring or someone being an ass and pulling over in front of me specifically to cut me off or make me hit them). I stick with the rules of the road and it's worked fine so far, along with the headswivel (though I actually use MC mirrors for monitoring behind me).

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by dogman dan » Jan 20, 2018 8:24 am

I think you are on the right track wondering about tires. I wore out a bike tire in 45 min once, but that was extreme riding on a racetrack. Looked fine outside, inside the cord was all cooked out of the rubber.

If you go with " bike stuff" to ride street with all its potholes, manhole humbs, etc, you will need suspension, good wheels, and the best tires.

With cheap stuff, no suspension, shitty rims, cheap tires, best to keep it down to more like 30 mph max, with 40 mph possible.

I'm not going to start lecturing you about if 50 mph in the street is safe. Most people consider everything I've done unsafe.

On this, I feel safe up to 30 mph.
6-1-2015  Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG
But to play in traffic, I choose a 400cc scooter, able to do 90 mph or so, and most importantly to me, people expect a motorcycle to be going fast. They expect a bike to be going slow. The scoot has better brakes and tires, but so what if they stop in front of you on the freeway. The other day I was doing 60 mph down the rumble strip because they were having road rage up ahead. I got stopped, but beside the car ahead of me. Brakes did not save me, situational awareness did.

Of course, both have to be ridden like they don't see you at all, cuz they don't. :roll:
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by lester12483 » Jan 20, 2018 11:39 am

In my view, ebikes aren't supposed to be fast. 25mph to speed is fast enough for riding in a city. I am always worried about potholes. At least out in the country you don't have to worry about traffic. I care more about range than speed.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by e-beach » Jan 20, 2018 12:09 pm

So for speed, get a big motor and over-volt it. Just don't over heat it.

If you go for a rear DD hub motor be very continuations of the rear dropouts so your motor and torque arm will fit well. Or consider a custom frame and motor setup.

Liveforphysics has a fast bike. He calls it his "deathbike". Look that one up.

It basically goes like this: Volts gives you speed. Amps gives you torque. Watt hours gives you range. Put it together in a solid bike you too can go fast. Just remember it is a bicycle and not meant to take the stresses you may apply to it.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by wturber » Jan 21, 2018 12:55 am

NeedForSpeed wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm
I want my ebike to be as safe as possible at high speeds (UPDATE: ie around 40-50mph, not much more than that), so I'm attempting to explore what it is that differentiates a (i'm assuming safer) DOT approved motorcycle from my hobby ebike, e.g. tires that can handle high speeds.
My perspective is a bit different from some of the folks who have responded. I don't consider laying down your bike to be safe. It may be safer than colliding with some thing, but it is still a good way to get hurt. My goal is to always be able to stop or in some other way avoid colliding with anything and stay upright. Of course, I can't ever guarantee that, but that's what I work towards. As an adult I've crashed three times. Once was a complete failure on my part and I went over the handlebars when I hit an unseen road obstacle. The other two were barely crashes. I simply failed to un-clip out of my pedals and tipped over on two occasions. But one of those times was on the road and could have been worse.

For me, the fundamental thing that distinguishes the high speed soundness of a typical e-bike compared to a motorcycle or scooter is the relatively high center of gravity that is created by the rider's position. This fundamentally limits your braking since applying maximum or near maximum front brake can pretty easily flip you over the handlebars. Low batteries and low heavy motors help, but even on an e-bike, the main mass is still the rider - and the rider sits up fairly high relative to the wheel hubs.

This is the main reason I generally max out at about 25 mph on my e-bike. The exception is long downhills with a clear view. I'll do 35 mph and more there, but only when I have a clear view so I can be pretty sure that I can stop in time if anything gets in my path. And frankly, that's probably not exactly smart given my general goals.

IMO, you can't put big enough tires or brakes or in any other way "beef up" a bike that has the rider in a conventional riding position so that you'll end up with what I'd call a safe bike at 50 mph on regular roads. Perhaps it might be considered reasonably safe on a closed course where you don't have to deal with the dumb things cars do and where you can just focus on the course and riding. But if you want to share the road with automobiles and still have a decent chance of making safe emergency stops, you need a lower center of gravity.

You could go with a recumbent e-bike, and that may help, but then there's the visibility issue. So perhaps a better compromise would be to go with a stretched frame - especially one that might lower your riding position a bit. That will probably sacrifice pedaling efficiency, but that's probably not the priority on a 50 mph e-bike.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MadRhino » Jan 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Riding is a good way to get hurt. We all prefer to avoid a crash, but the fact is that it will happen. A conscious rider, is one who is riding within his skill level, aware of his environment and all vehicles and obstacles around, a proper bike that is always reliable, and does train himself to face every situation for the best probability of minimal damage.

If you have a slight chance to avoid, but very high probability of dramatic damage if you don’t succeed, then you have to accept the safest option even if it does mean to volontarily suffer minor damages. Playing roulette, is leading a rider in a coffin or a wheelchair.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by DRMousseau » Jan 21, 2018 10:01 pm

Well, like motorcycles, stopping and mechanical soundness IS important, when speed is considered.

AND, every motorcyclist is quite aware of the safety importance of APPEARANCE and creating AWARENESS OF PRESENSE in traffic conditions. Headlights, loud engines and exhaust, bright colors and unusual appearance can contribute to these factors. Because of popularity, motorists are "conditioned" and know what to expect of various motorcycles and riders, from the moped college student and full-helmet, ballistic clad motocross riders, to the leather jacketed crotch-rocket guys and the casually vested cruisers.

But in most places, the e-bike hasn't been popular enough to distinguish it any different than either a possible "motorcycle kinda" thing or, jus a simple bicycle!!! If your pedaling in any manner, your a bicycle,.... maybe a somewhat fast one, if your wearing lycra,... or maybe jus a slow old man cruisin' about, like me! And if you quit pedaling,... your assumed to be "coasting" and slowing. NO ONE expects a "bicycle" to rapidly increase in speed beyond any cadence they may exhibit!!! It's pretty important for e-bike riders to keep in mind as a matter of safety. If you build and look "fast", you'll be considered differently, than if you build "stealthy" with hidden and unexpected capabilities. Headgear and apparel appearances can also affect the judgement of motorists,... heavy helmet and boots are assessed differently then baseball cap, shorts and flip-flops.
NeedForSpeed wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Has anyone given thought to this? So far all I can think of is wheel/tires that can handle high speeds/potholes, but I'm stumped what else could impact the safety of a high speed ebike. What else can go wrong at high speeds?
Build for soundness, dependability and safety,... but keep in mind your "appearance" and quietness that may contribute to the motorists lack of awareness of what you truly are.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 21, 2018 10:48 pm

so to answer the original questions...
I am a very experienced sportbike rider. Unlike a lot of people on here, I feel completely comfortable moving in traffic, passing traffic and going "high speed".

There are a few ebike things that I dont see talked about much.

First are brakes of course.
90% of your braking at speed is with your front wheel.
I had simple normal disc brake. It cooked enough to smell the first time I tried it.
I upgraded it with a larger EBC rotor. This helped braking performance, but the pads still cooked.
I then upgraded the caliper to a hydraulic unit that came with better pads. This works well.

My newfound braking ability started causing another issue. My cheap front fork was flexing under hard braking.
I ended up upgrading to a high end downhill fork and wheel. The good news is, you can have something as old as early 2000s and its safe, you dont need the latest and greatest dowhill equipment... so if budget is an issue, you can get this used. If you get a model that can be serviced, you can rebuild it for far less. This is what I did. I have marzocchi forks and a thru hub wheel for about $150.

So now you have a solid front end and can brake well... you take it out a few times, and poof. your rear tire is worn. lol.
You now need to redo that rear wheel with a moped rim, so you can fit a moped tire that can actually last at 30+mph sustained.
If you want the front to match... you're redoing that too.. (but braking improves because the front wheel is slightly smaller)

So in a nutshell... moped rims/tires, oversize front rotor, hydraulic caliper and good front fork are must-haves if you're going high speed.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by dogman dan » Jan 22, 2018 10:31 am

Good points dude.

Lots of travel on a good fork means you can brake hard enough too cook your pads, without the instant flip. I also highly recommend lengthening the bike. John in CR did it perfect for his needs.

But for me, I find it much cheaper to own the scooter, than to build a really high performance e bike for street. Primarily, its the damn battery. By the time you are riding like a crotch rocket, or even a lame scooter like mine, you are really burning up battery in a hurry. For me its pretty simple, 30 min ride time is not enough, so the scoot with 200 mile range per tankful suits me.

At 30 mph or so, I can easily afford an hour rides battery. But at 50 mph, its more like a 15 min ride.

Battery is my real problem. Not brakes, tires, etc. In my favor, tags and insurance on the scoot don't cost shit. less than 200 a year, including theft insurance.

Re laying it down,, its something I have practiced a lot. Starting in grade school on bikes, then dirt motorcycles, and so on. Very few laydowns on asphalt, none in traffic. You want to be wearing some good armor when you do it.

Build an e bike to ride on street at 50 mph speed, I suggest you become expert at laydown, or slow down. The tires will not hold like a cheap ass 150 scooter from china will. A roketta 150 can cost 700 bucks used. Think about that before you spend 700 on just a fork.

I rely on threading the needle when I find myself screwed in traffic. Brakes stop you too long. Just the other day what saved me was steering while I braked, to thread the needle. Locking up the brakes, I'd have just rammed that car that suddenly stopped in my path on the interstate.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 22, 2018 11:26 am

I'm probably more "active" on the bike than most... when I am braking extremely hard, I put my weight back and down.. under max braking the seat is actually in-front of me, and im ducking over the rear wheel. lol.
No worries of flip over, just max traction braking... I will say it is MUCH easier to modulate with the hydraulic units compared to a cable one. The effort is less and therefore easier to feel and modulate.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by wineboyrider » Jan 22, 2018 11:43 am

As we can see there are a lot of different factors when building a fast ebike. For me in a very rural area i would ride on side roads like a bicycle and then open up the speed on flat long terrain with very little traffic, but I always ride like a bicycle when in the city or heavy traffic. A 35 mph ebike is ok, but any faster than get a motorcycle frame or just get a motorcycle imo.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Jan 22, 2018 9:17 pm

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 22, 2018 10:31 am
I rely on threading the needle when I find myself screwed in traffic. Brakes stop you too long. Just the other day what saved me was steering while I braked, to thread the needle. Locking up the brakes, I'd have just rammed that car that suddenly stopped in my path on the interstate.
I had one of these last week, I made the mistake of being slightly behind a car on the right in the designated bike lane going down a slight hill, luckily I was keeping a close eye out for the driver to make any false moves, sure enough, a sudden right hand turn into a driveway without using their blinkers. Seemed like they suddenly spotted the building they wanted to turn into, almost slammed on their brakes and whipped the wheel to make the turn, then noticed me and again slammed on their brakes to make a panic stop (which meant they ended up right in my path with me flying towards them. My reaction was to brake hard and as soon as I determined they were indeed at a full stop I released the brakes and flew past them on the right, I didn't have time to swing left into the road around them. Luckily it worked out for me, it easily could have turned out badly.

Almost kicked myself for riding in the bike lane, I usually always take the lane on that stretch of road. I might mention I was riding a bike with V Brakes and Kool Stop tri-compound pads and they worked real well in this particular situation, those things are worth the money. I was stupidly following them at too close a distance on the right in what was likely their blind spot.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by e-beach » Jan 22, 2018 11:55 pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Jan 22, 2018 9:17 pm
....... Luckily it worked out for me, it easily could have turned out badly.......
I am very-very glad it worked out for you this time. Hopefully it will always be the same. I for one, have not been so lucky. :oops:

There are many riders on this board who have fine skills. They are proud of their many years of riding and claim to have practiced and honed their skills to keep from getting hit because of their finely honed bike riding prowess and life time riding experience.

I say it only takes one time.

I got my first bike 53 and 1/2 half years ago. I got my first motorcycle 46 and 1/2 years ago. I have hundreds of thousands of hours riding two wheeled vehicles. And all I have to say to those who think that their skill will always save them is this......."bullshit."

"It only takes one time."

I tell people that the US military spends millions and millions trying to figure out how to make military members invisible when all they have to do is ride a bicycle.

I don't care how much anybody practices, keeping your self away from disastrous situations is the only real answer to long term riding safety.

That means taking the whole lane and not caring about slowing down traffic. It means waiting at the green light while all the cars pass before starting down the street. It means patience and caution and vigilance while riding and knowing that those who think their past experience will always save them are fooling themselves in the long run.

Don't be that victim.

How do I know? I ride daily in the busiest most car infested city in the USA. And, I have not been the lucky one.

Over the long run luck runs 50/50. Some days you win, some days you loose. Some days the car runs over you. Sounds like a country song.

Like that line from an ancient Hollywood move titled The Gay Divorcee which went "Chance is a fools name for fate."

Don't take your chances. Ride cautiously, responsibly, thoughtfully and without false ego, or you too will get hurt.

:wink:
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MadRhino » Jan 23, 2018 1:07 am

E-beach you got this all wrong.

Skilled riders with long time experience don’t believe they will always be saved, unless they are total idiots.

Young riders might believe that, but they pay the cost of learning pretty soon. Old riders who are still riding fast and dangerous conditions are perfectly conscious, because they live with the pain of all the bad crashes of their life, on cold and rainy days especially.

It is just that some riders are accepting the consequences, and don’t let pain or fear dictate they way of life. I did accept a long time ago that I might die in a crash, or by accumulation of consequences. I just think ‘so what’, it is our fate to live, suffer, and die. Death is smiling to us all, some of us are smiling to her in return.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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dogman dan
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by dogman dan » Jan 23, 2018 9:18 am

Actually, I've had a couple of those one times in the past, but just got lucky. ( and already knew how to do a rag doll at lower speeds) The luck part was rag dolling into nothing, vs concrete or steel.

I sure as hell know it could go unlucky any time.

But, knowing when your brakes will not stop you in time, and when they will is crucial.

how you make threading the needle is this, you have a plan for the right cross, or whatever. When cars started slowing to a stop in front of me while I was in the left lane, my pre planned maneuver is what I did, I got on the rumble strip, with my left arm nearly touching the cable barrier. I am always ready to do something like this, especially around an on ramp. People get crowded, then get in your lane before looking. I'm always ready for this.

The time before, about two years ago, I threaded the needle between the lanes. About five years ago, I watched a guy on a Harley get sandwiched real bad. He stopped in time, square in the lane, and then let a car hit him from behind. All three times, same place, where the on ramp dumps traffic on that road in large numbers. I'm always ready for anything there.

I watch my mirrors, and have my front tire pointed at the eye of the needle, leaving a generous bit in front of me. If I am going to stop that close,,, I'm already between lanes.

Have a plan, watch them, and don't be there getting whacked. The other day I got surprised, but having a plan made it easy.

I don't expect to never get whacked. I merely plan on it. Have a plan for every thing those f heads do, in your car too.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by DRMousseau » Jan 23, 2018 11:22 am

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 9:18 am
I watch my mirrors,...


I don't expect to never get whacked. I merely plan on it. Have a plan for every thing those f heads do, in your car too.
OH YA!!! MIRRORS! There a pain,... but a fast e-bike still isn't gonna be fast enough for traffic behind ya! I couldn't count the times I've left the road entirely, when on a narrow two-lane with approaching traffic and a big 18-wheeler comin' up behind in my mirror. If the road ain't big enough for both of us to maintain safety of each other and those around us,.... I figure it's best if "I" leave the road for spaces not easily taken by others!

So build sturdy enough for "those spaces" when necessary, and don't forget a mirror. lol!

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 23, 2018 12:19 pm

YES! I nearly forgot about them because I always have them.
If you dont have good mirrors... get some. Just go on ebay, and if you dont like the bicycle mirrors, start looking at motorcycle bar end (or other kind) of mirrors. Want stalks? You can get CNC aluminum perches for a couple dollars. They're intended for people modifying motorcycles/scooters but they work great for ebikes too.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MadRhino » Jan 23, 2018 2:37 pm

This is bringing a point, as how building a safe fast ebike need to be specific for the rider and where he does ride. When I ride someone else’s bike, I always feel that it does need many changes to be a safe ride. So I believe someone else riding mine, might miss the mirrors.

I never put any mirrors on bikes. I ride a quite crowded city, or single track mountain trails. I never let a vehicle tailing me, and I am never in the tail of anyone either. When I have trafic ahead and can’t pass, I ride the side until the next light and start ahead of them all. Then I speed to the next trafic pack. Never anyone behind, unless it is a motorcycle trying to catch up.

According to how and where one does ride, many things on his bike might need to be specific for his requirements. We are also a tad maniac about some things. I need a 780 mm low rise handlebar, I feel handicaped without it. I need a bright warning light, that I flash to warn people ahead. I don’t need a horn, for there are too many horns in town, so I prefer short locking the rear wheel, making a screaming braking noise that immediately catches attention. For those reasons and obvious others, I value tire grip way over efficiency and lasting. So I need fresh tires very often, and I adjust PSI almost every morning. I also need my suspension to be perfectly tuned, perfect brake pads, and the bike perfecly stable to leave the handlebar at 40 Mph.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by e-beach » Jan 23, 2018 11:44 pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 1:07 am
E-beach you got this all wrong.
Do I really have it all wrong? I don't think so. I just happen to believe living with constant pain is a bad thing. How do I know? I have my own aches and pains that hurt all the time. Who needs more of that? Nobody.
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 1:07 am
Skilled riders with long time experience don’t believe they will always be saved, unless they are total idiots.
Skilled riders......OK, I am moving on to 55 years of riding bicycles. It will happen this June. And motorcycles, my 47th year will be about May. I have ridden bicycles and motorcycle in the densest traffic in the world, high speeds and low speeds. I have been doing it for decades. I have also trained on road bikes to the tune of 150 miles per week, for years. I have ridden motorcycles into the deep desert, at high speeds, to places where no man has ever walked, at least not willingly. I have climbed steep hills on motorcycles, and bicycles. I have descended at high speed on both as well.

Skilled riders?

Before mountain bikes were invented I was cutting the loop off the back of the sissy-bar of my Schwinn Stingray and tucking it under my banana seat. And then clamping some sort of bar into my handlebars to form a crossbar so that when we rode (my buddys and i) down to Fox Hills, before there was a mall, when they were still dirt hills, the handlebars wouldn't collapse when I got air-born down the main hill for at least 50 feet of air before I hitting the bottom of the hill and skidding left through the 90 degree turn so not to go over the side of the 20 foot drop-off.

Lecturing me about skilled riding will certainly fall on deaf ears because my cycling experience is dense :wink:
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 1:07 am
........Old riders who are still riding fast and dangerous conditions are perfectly conscious, because they live with the pain of all the bad crashes of their life, on cold and rainy days especially.
Yep, and that's why "expecting to get hurt again" is a really-really stupid idea. Expecting to ride in a way where one is not put into a situation where they will get badly hurt again is a much better idea.
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 23, 2018 1:07 am
It is just that some riders are accepting the consequences, and don’t let pain or fear dictate they way of life. I did accept a long time ago that I might die in a crash, or by accumulation of consequences. I just think ‘so what’, it is our fate to live, suffer, and die. Death is smiling to us all, some of us are smiling to her in return.
Well like the young say "Live fast. Die young. Leave a good looking corpse. :roll:

Well, here is the thing, not everybody wants to die early. Or live with pain. And once you crash hard, pain may not be your only way of life. Like this poor guy. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html And, yes he got money, but that is mostly going to pay for 24/7/365 nursing care. Do you really want a catheter and someone to go at you bottom with rubber gloves every day because your bowls don't function anymore?

Don't think that death will get you quickly, or peacefully, like some sweet peaceful summer rain on your forehead. You may suffer for years before you go....

Or, you can take my advice and be smarter about how you ride.

My guess, sad to say is that you wouldn't make it in my town. And I say "sad to say" because I appreciate your input around ES. I really do!

However, I don't care if you have a plan A or a plan A and B or a plan A, B and C, that is still not enough around here. If you think learning to lay your bike down will save you, well maybe where you live, but around here the next car will just run over you and may not stop to even look at you. If you think I am exaggerating, then google this once a week for a year.

"Los Angeles bicycle killed hit and run"

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Los+ ... irefox-b-1

It is a never ending crime sheet. And I mean never ending!

In any case I say safe riding is better then egotistical assumptions about how good you are. Besides, you or me, we can never control how the other guys is driving. It only takes one time.

So my suggestion to ES members is to not think you are in total control when you ride, because you aren't. :wink:

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Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by MadRhino » Jan 24, 2018 12:32 am

I never questioned your experience.
I just said that old riders are not ignorant of the risks of riding, and when they choose to ride fast, you are wrong to think it is because they believe that their experience will save them forever. It is just their philosophy, to believe that riding slow, or not at all, doesn't offer any better guarantee.
I live with pain since a bull teared my stomach when i was 14, and it got worse with every accidents from work, riding or other sports. I have accepted and live happy, not being worried of the next, or the final. During all those years I have seen so many people who were living carefully, finish with much worse destiny than I. I find myself lucky to still be able to work, run and ride at 70 years of age, and will continue to live one day at a time.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Assembling a safe fast ebike

Post by dogman dan » Jan 24, 2018 8:11 am

Sounds like we were not the only kids on sting rays, "inventing" bmx riding in the 60's. We had a big dirt drainage ditch that was a neat half pipe. No, we did not do fancy air in those days, but we did jumps to the bottom of it, and rode vert on it. Amazing what those old schwinns could handle. That was where I learned to rag doll crash to come up unhurt.

FWIW, all my bad pain now is from construction work, or the crash I had 8 years ago on the e bike. That was the sub 15 mph crash,, when the water bottle jammed in my fork. Broke both collarbones, and wrecked a left rotator cuff.

But you definitely want to avoid all crashes, all your life. So when I want to go faster than 35 or so, I want big motorcycle brakes, big motorcycle tires, and yes, the body armor. I can lay er down at any speed anytime, but I don't want to have to because of bike tires. Racing on the ebike, it was really easy to go down. not enough tire to hang in there, and then whee!

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