New to ebikes, trying to decide between DIY or Juiced CrossCurrent S

Key things I'm looking for:
• 28mph or higher. Especially if I end up going longer distances as I expect
• High range. My in-town needs are 10-20mi round trip, but there's lots of places I'd like to try the e-bike for that are 30-50mi round trip, especially as I don't own a car. From what I've read, this means pretty high Wh batteries once you get above 20-25mph.
• Low maintenance, or maintenance that I can do myself. I'm used to riding my bike and doing my own normal bike maintenance already
• Torque sensor is non-negotiable. I've tried riding a few cadence-only bikes and it was awful
• I think I prefer direct drive based on research/demos, but would be okay with geared I think. Not much interest in mid-drives, seem like too much maintenance and I couldn't find much real world evidence of efficiency over modern hubs.
• Most of the areas I'm riding are semi-flat, but there's a few routes that are extremely steep, prolonged grades (I live near the mountains, and there's almost no transition between flat plains and thousands of feet of elevation gain).
• Misc: I'm about 175lbs, 5'7" so looking at medium sized bikes, prefer mountain or cross style.

Budget is somewhat flexible, but I'd like to keep it between $2K- $3K.

I've done some initial pricing on a DIY approach, and was surprised to find the price ends up being similar to the CCS with the 19Ah battery, especially since I don't have an existing bike (that I'm willing to convert).

My question: does it make more sense to go the DIY route? I really like the CCS, but I'm worried about being able to do my own maintenance and replacements on it in the future.

There is no way you'll get 30+ miles range at 28+ mph from the Juiced bike. You can have one or the other, maybe. If you really want both, you'll need to build the bike yourself. And the battery will be expensive. And the bike will be heavy.

Consider using a system with a frame mounted pack that can give you the 10-20 mile round trip you'll usually have, with the option of carrying a spare battery for more range.

Thanks Chalo - I think I should've been clearer that I want the ability to go faster when needed, but not that I'd necessarily go that fast continuously. I'm guessing 23-24mph would be much more doable for those longer distances?

The 28mph number got stuck in my head because it's a legal limit for e-bike classifications here, and so a lot of the bikes I was able to demo would cap out at that point.

I've also been doing more reading about hub motors, and am a bit confused. On the one hand, it seems like the main issue with a direct drive on inclines is overheating as it reaches low rpm / high torque limits, based on playing with the simulator. But the explanations I read that say geared is better for torque also say that geared has worse heat dissipation.

neither should over-heat if one limits the power avail. to twice their rating(and avoid really steep long hills if need be). The only thing I've ever got hot w/ my geared motor/low power controller systems (15 to 25 Amps) is the controller, mostly because the motor was too high a motor-speed(usually called a 328, 328 rpm's @ 36 V).
The way I see it, the reasons to choose one or the other is twofold.
If much of your riding is long straight-a-ways, long distance riding, a DD motor could be right for you. especially if you do lot's of miles.
If you do a lot of city riding, the geared has the advantage of coasting a little better. I like to "point and shoot", pedal hard and then coast up to the light. I also like the fact that sm. geared motors disappear behind the cassette and even the bigger ones aren't that noticable.
Both are reliable, but if a guy was doing 1000's of miles a year, the DD would probably last longer.
Another plus for me is, one can get somewhat better performance on a low volt(36V or 48V)system with a geared.

I researched the Juiced bike(you should have provided a link)and there are some claims that make me wonder. Like they don't show the "strain gauge". I'm thinking maybe it's just the Chinese genaric sine wave "torque Imitation" controller that limits Current rather than limiting Volts. That and a few other things like range and claimed top speed. It's a 13 Ah batt. and figuring 1 1/2 to 2 miles per Ah, that's 20 to 25 miles. Top speed? It's listed as having a 5 to 1 gear ratio, so most likely is a mid-speed motor(260 rpm's @ 36 V), so I would think 23-24 mph on 48V and 25-26 mph on 52 V, tops. You don't want to go 28 mph on a hardtail anyway.
It seems an ok Ebike for the money, but I also noticed Amazon is selling selling the striped-down, ridgid fork version for $1145 US(free shipping w/ Prime). I would buy that and add a suspension fork for around $200.
I could probably build a little nicer bike for that cost based on an used mountain bike(w/ rear suspension), but I would have to shop for the bike, order the parts and put it together. I've done enough of these that I could do it w/out making mistakes, but when I was a noob, I made plenty.

Sorry about no link: https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/crosscurrent-s?variant=4417415544855

It's a 13 Ah batt. and figuring 1 1/2 to 2 miles per Ah, that's 20 to 25 miles. Top speed? It's listed as having a 5 to 1 gear ratio, so most likely is a mid-speed motor(260 rpm's @ 36 V), so I would think 23-24 mph on 48V and 25-26 mph on 52 V, tops. You don't want to go 28 mph on a hardtail anyway.

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The 12Ah battery is the base configuration, but they offer a 19Ah for only $300 more, and is what I was planning on. There's also a 21Ah@52v available in April.

I was able to demo this bike (12Ah@48v) through a coworker today, and easily hit 25-28mph, so I think you might be off on the motor specs. I've emailed Juiced to ask for the exact model of the motor, their spec sheet only says its a geared Bafang 650w.

I don't think it's an imitation torque controller - there's a chain-based sensor mounted in the rear, and it responded similar to other torque-sensor equipped bikes I've ridden.

Amazon is selling selling the striped-down, ridgid fork version for $1145 US

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That's a different model with a much smaller battery and no torque sensor.

My alternative to the CCS was to do a DIY build (probably using parts from Grin), but that seemed like asking for trouble when I've never owned an e-bike before.

In any case, I think I'm going to go with the CCS after having the chance to ride my coworker's around, and it looks like the parts are standardized enough I could replace many of them with off-the-shelf components later if I had to. Thanks for the help!

So much of this decision depends on you. A DIY e-bike based on a direct drive or geared rear wheel hub is pretty straightforward if you, have average DIY skills, buy a kit, and do a standard assemble. I'm not one of the guy's here with a ton of experience. In fact, I've built exacly one e-bike. Nor am I even close to being a skilled fabricator. But I had no significant problems. And as a newbie, I set my self up for extra grief by deviating from a "standard" build in three ways.

1) Non-standard, inexpensive surplus e-bay batteries.
2) I'm using a voltage boost converter to take my non-standard 36v batteries up to 54v to better match the inexpensive 48v $225 e-bay kit I purchased.
3) I made my own torque arms rather than purchase them off-the-shelf.

My bike works pretty darned well. I pretty much hits all of your design goals. It goes over 30mph. It has a range in excess of 50 miles if speeds are kept around 20mph. It can commute 32 miles round trip with typical speeds of around 25 mph on one charge. While it does not have a torque sensor, the KT controller based pedelec system is quite good. You might be surprised at how good. Before I was temporarily sidelinee for medical reasons, (Three more weeks and I should be back on the bike.) I was putting 500 miles a month on it with very good reliability. My total budget was around $1000. $225 for the motor kit. $250 for the 36 v "hoverboard" battery packs. $200 for the used donor MTB and another $300 for other miscellaneous stuff (wires, soldering irons, battery charging systems, rack and mods, etc.) I've probably gone over that $1000 with light and other upgrades and fiddling about.

IMO, there are probably three strong reasons to build an e-bike yourself.

1) Economy. If you bargain hunt, you really can do a lot with $1000.
2) You want something unique. The customs you will see outlined here range from lightweight bikes that barely look like they have a motor, to super-fast and powerful bikes that are effectively motorcycles.
3) You just like building, modifying and maintaining your own stuff.

There is no right answer. What do you think would be more fun, buying an e-bike or making one?

As for juiced, they produce a good e bike. At least as good as you need to get what you want in terms of low maintenance, and a speed well over 20 mph.

You will not get torque sensing pas on a budget. its just expensive. I was of the opinion that cadence PAS sucked hugely, until I was able to ride one that I could tune to my ideas what I would like. I'm not sure if Juiced has this, but the best kits these days usually do.

But that said,, no way does any pas beat the best and fastest computer on earth for controlling a motor. That is your hand and your brain, on a throttle. With this, you can maintain a steady cadence and speed up and down hills, far better than any pas. Your brain learns as it goes, and you can realize huge improvements in riding more efficient. Pas can be very efficient too, but more in the way of just making you work harder the whole way. With a throttle, you can ride smarter, spending your watts where you want them.

The long rides will simply require an additional battery whichever you choose. The juiced bikes battery connection may make that difficult, unless you buy their battery. This alone may point you towards DIY. You will need about 30 ah of battery to do 50 mile rides at speed.

dogman dan said:

But that said,, no way does any pas beat the best and fastest computer on earth for controlling a motor. That is your hand and your brain, on a throttle. With this, you can maintain a steady cadence and speed up and down hills, far better than any pas. Your brain learns as it goes, and you can realize huge improvements in riding more efficient. Pas can be very efficient too, but more in the way of just making you work harder the whole way. With a throttle, you can ride smarter, spending your watts where you want them.

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Right. While I have a PAS I also have a hand twist throttle and use both every ride.

Juiced uses a torque sensor mounted in the rear drop out. It's a modular system. They also can put a cadence sensor in the same place for their basic model. I don't understand how it works, as it still appears to run off magnets.

Personally, I don't see the whoppy doo over torque sensing. I'll take my lower cost ebike kit with 5 PAS levels, throttle, as much power I want to buy, and no restrictions on speed, As dogman says, it's easy to find a cadence level where I'm putting enough work on my own to make it a bike ride.

wturber said:

IMO, there are probably three strong reasons to build an e-bike yourself.

1) Economy. If you bargain hunt, you really can do a lot with $1000.
2) You want something unique. The customs you will see outlined here range from lightweight bikes that barely look like they have a motor, to super-fast and powerful bikes that are effectively motorcycles.
3) You just like building, modifying and maintaining your own stuff.

There is no right answer. What do you think would be more fun, buying an e-bike or making one?

Click to expand...

2 and 3 are the main reasons I want to build one myself, and I do think it would be a lot of fun...

But as someone without a car, I've been dreaming of being able to travel further more easily (especially in very hot, very cold, or bad weather) for years, and now that this possibility has opened up to me I'm impatient to the point of obsession haha.

So the answer is... both? The 19Ah black CCS was finally in stock (briefly) earlier today, so I went ahead and bought it.

I still want to build a bike myself though (this forum is addicting...), but now I'll do it as a slow-burn hobby project, and I can take my time with it (or pick components up on sales) instead of trying to rush myself and getting frustrated with minor mistakes.

Thanks for the advice!

If you buy a complete kit, a pre-assembled battery and plan well, there's really no reason that you can't have a working bike in a weekend. Of course, that's just a basic commuter, not a custom. OTOH, doing that with "smart" component purchases will leave your pocketbook comparatively undamaged so that you will have more money to spend on a more cool custom down the road. Also, you will have picked up some hands on experience and perhaps confidence in the mean time.

There is a third option not mentioned. You could buy a used e-bike that would help with your short term anxiousness and get you on the road. This should also help to preserve funds for that custom build as well as help cement those features that matter to you.

It is probably obvious that I lean toward the DIY vs. the turn key. But I've got to say that a (literally) turn key bike certainly has advantages. Also, having two e-bikes makes a lot of sense if you don't have a car as a back-up.

I think, S/B. that you'll like the Juiced CCS. Have tons of fun.