my inrunner build ? go ahead and laugh

[enoob]

here ya go enoob:
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Neodymium-Magnet ... 53ddc19ad3

) thanks my friend you know i already orderd the other ones you did the cad drawing to . be here monday so i got work to do on a rotor

may be wrong but i saw that those ones are n48 , while stronger the 42's apparently deal with heat a little better. so i took the bait.

if this one works out then ive already (in my head) worked out a water jacket wrapping the stator . im thinkin ill make this one spin and see what i get for rpm. go from there.

speaking of rpm its time to buy the wire . any suggestions ? i was going to go with 16 or 14 gauge with as many turns as i can fit into it.

[enoob]

Eric,

I recall reading about a motor somewhere that had the poles angled at 45 degrees, supposedly it increased torque, something to do with maximizing the area of the air gap..

Would something like this produce more torque than the first design I showed?

ETA: One advantage I can see is that it can be made thinner than a lot of the other axial flux designs since the width of the iron is only the same as the longest part of the magnet.

the first thing i see with that setup is a rather easy way to trap magnets to a rotor . and i cant remember the math but a 45 degree angle significantly increases surface area.
be fun to try.

[Thud]

ENOOB!
I seem to have missed a dimension on the dia. of the mags in that drawing.
They are in fact .5"dia.
this drawing represents .37"dia mags.


there ya go, let me know if i have something goofy.

[Miles]

may be wrong but i saw that those ones are n48 , while stronger the 42's apparently deal with heat a little better. so i took the bait.

That's often the case, but not necessarily so. You'd need to know the thermal rating, to be sure. Strictly, N48 and N42 have the same thermal rating:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp.

[enoob]

ENOOB!
I seem to have missed a dimension on the dia. of the ags in that drawing.
They are in fact .5"dia. i will repost a drawing with the 24 poles with 3/8"dia. in a moment.

no rush . till lunch im dad not chad the fabricator. (wifes sleeping off a night shift kids are at preshcool )

ive made the jig and its easy to adjust size . the only real important number i need is the radius to the center of the mags and in reality the test runs with the jig will flush out the correct measurements i need . nice to have a accurate starting point though.

late today or first thing in the morning ill get my aluminium disks in the jig and see what happens . so far im happy with how its working the mdf .

[Thud]

please see above edits. I thin i got mm

[enoob]

please see above edits. I thin i got mm

no problem . on the phone with mag4less right now . checking if my order is out yet, made it last night online so i doubt it.
be nice to have the stronger mags and the lower kv.

may be wrong but i saw that those ones are n48 , while stronger the 42's apparently deal with heat a little better. so i took the bait.

That's often the case, but not necessarily so. You'd need to know the thermal rating, to be sure. Strictly, N48 and N42 have the same thermal rating:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp.

thanks miles . took another look at what made me see that and im betting i was comparing nh or nm 42's to a n rated 48 . looks like n rated = 170f . i hope so cuz mags for less is out as of 1 min ago and emovendo is stepping in .found some n50s but what i read says they are relatively easy to demagnetize and will keep the beer fridge empty a little longer so ...... no.

[rhitee05]

I recall reading about a motor somewhere that had the poles angled at 45 degrees, supposedly it increased torque, something to do with maximizing the area of the air gap..

Would something like this produce more torque than the first design I showed?

ETA: One advantage I can see is that it can be made thinner than a lot of the other axial flux designs since the width of the iron is only the same as the longest part of the magnet.

I think you're correct, the increased airgap area should increase torque/power. Finding magnets with that shape seems tricky, though. Without modeling it, I'm not sure offhand if there's anything you'd need to tweak with the design to optimize the flux flow, but seems like a reasonable concept. The form factor would be attractive, as you mention.

[AussieJester]

Before you die of laughing at his manner, remember, he makes better electric motors and vehicles than anyone! Enjoy!

He does have uuuuhm..'interestinnnnnggggg' mannerismmmmmss doesn't heeeee, i'm guessing hes some what of an ecntric individual, he obvioulsy
knows his stuff though, some might impressive figures for his motorcycle!

KiM

[enoob]

cheduled Delivery Date:03/12/2009 Shipped To: LANGLEY, BC, CA Weight:1.90 Lbs
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Location Date Local Time DescriptionWhat's this?
COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 25/11/2009 21:36 ARRIVAL SCAN
MESQUITE, TX, US 25/11/2009 0:56 DEPARTURE SCAN
RICHMOND, BC, CA 24/11/2009 22:43 PACKAGE DATA PROCESSED BY BROKERAGE. WAITING FOR CLEARANCE
MESQUITE, TX, US 24/11/2009 22:48 ORIGIN SCAN
24/11/2009 17:10 PICKUP SCAN
US 24/11/2009 14:46 BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED







sigh . i new i shoulda got it sent to ship happens id have em by now .
bloody excruciating.

[enoob]

well i had a little mess this morning and wont get to my rotor till the mornin . BUT i did get a new braclet from ups today.



thats 30 of em and now the fun begins.

assuming the halbach thing goes as i suspect . wich is south. i think ill use 20 of them but with a gap between each . my thinking is this would allow me to push more than one rotor on the shaft to get magnets that are 2 or 3 inches long. matter of fact with this alternator as a case i could use threaded rod instead of the stock bolts and stretch it out a fair bit .

.

[enoob]

closer. now that is round


not the rotor i was hoping to have in hand this morning but its progress none the less. im 2 beer in now so it will wait till morning but that will get 18 magnets NOT in a halbach array. that will wait till mid week when i can get time on the endmill. if all goes well this time next week ill have 2 rotors to play with and see if this boat will float or not.

chad

[AussieJester]

ill have 2 rotors to play with and see if this boat will float or not.

chad

So its a 'boat' now not a motor MAKE UP YOUR MIIIIIND!!111

Seriously... nice to see progress rather than pages and pages of talk and discussion on what 'I'm gunna do' :-S I like those that jump in and get on with it, you get my vote enoob Following with MUCH interest all the best with the endeavour mate.

KiM

p.s only 2 beers weeeell..i tend to start doing my best around the 4th beer so down a couple more and get on with the show

[enoob]

Thanks for the vote of confidence AJ . i hope i can do it proud .

Well im not the most motivated with beer in me so i waited and i hope it was worth it ?

i didnt know i was bleeding till i loaded the shots on the pc oops.





magnets are not glued in yet but that should be a snap . ill give it a shot later tonight if all goes good. centre hole needs to be bored for the shaft still and ill clean up the cross drilled holes with the diegrinder in the mornin. how you like my passive airflow ? those holes are at about 33 degree angle and ill clean up the leading edges to scoop air.
without stator im now at 4 pounds 3 ounces. muhahahahahahahaha

[AussieJester]

VERY nice work there enoob your using a mill to get that sort of accuracy im guessing?

KiM

p.s BEER improves reflexes, thought processes and accuracy levels! i read it somewhere....or was that hinders.... :: looks at can of beer on desk ::

[enoob]

VERY nice work there enoob your using a mill to get that sort of accuracy im guessing?

KiM

p.s BEER improves reflexes, thought processes and accuracy levels! i read it somewhere....or was that hinders.... :: looks at can of beer on desk ::

tell you what. ill have a few beer and try and make another and see if im better

no mill yet but ill need that to get the halbach setup . just me and these tools + drill press . had an idea, i was getting drill bit wander when i went from the mdf to the alloy sooo after layout with the protractor i did the pilot holes the same diameter as the first step on the step bit. the final step on that bit is half inch, same as the magnets . so the tip of the bit was held inline as the bit ran through the material. i had a little blow out on one or 2 and im not sure ill glue the magnets in as if you look close there is some slop BUT it was good practice none the less . my big drill press will do a better job the little one i just used seems to be worn , the chuck has some play in it so there is room for improvement. first time that drill press has been asked to do that kind of precision and shes showing her age.

[def215]

wow. you have some skill there. im in to see the finished product.

also, just a suggestion to the drillbit wander. a good way that ive figured out to stop it is to take a sharp, pointy object, i.e. nail, knife, needle, just something sharp and pointy. put it on the spot you are going to drill at. smack the top of the sharp object with a hammer making a mark(more dimple-like shape) on the metal. put the drill into the mark and drill slowly to start it then when it starts to dig in, finish off the hole. so far ive been successful with that technique to address drill wandering.

[enoob]

wow. you have some skill there. im in to see the finished product.

also, just a suggestion to the drillbit wander. a good way that ive figured out to stop it is to take a sharp, pointy object, i.e. nail, knife, needle, just something sharp and pointy. put it on the spot you are going to drill at. smack the top of the sharp object with a hammer making a mark(more dimple-like shape) on the metal. put the drill into the mark and drill slowly to start it then when it starts to dig in, finish off the hole. so far ive been successful with that technique to address drill wandering.

well thank you sir.
i used a centre punch to eliminate drill bit "walk" as its called when the bit wants to walk across the material before it begins to cut.
the drill bit wander i was experiencing was the bit flexing and trying to blow out the side as i wanted the hole on the edge if not peeking out the edge.

i did this layout first hit each spot with the punch and proceeded to do the pilot holes with a 3/16 bit. made a simple jig with the centre hole giving me a fixed distance to the drill bit and just rotated the piece to each hole and once the first hole is done i used it to key off of and get the other 17

[enoob]

ok brains i got a

Been reading up on the ironless stator as i think im getting close to needing that piece soon . problem is as im getting deeper into it im reading that iron in the core = better efficiency at low rpm . ironless core's seem to make ground as the rpm get high . if so what are the factors that determine the point where its beneficial to be ironless ? rpm alone ? over all design ?

im hoping to be able to get a kv around or under 100 per volt . 48v =4800 rpm . i highly doubt the motor will see continuous WOT so for now ill assume 3k rpm to be an average .

Does 3000 rpm benefit from an ironless stator

[Thud]

enoob,
That whole iron question is the big one in my head also. But untill I can get my mits on some flat copper in a apropriate size (without breaking my wallet) I am just going to play with cores & coil configs. I am anxious to see how a true ironless motor performs in testing though. I may have a go at building a rolling shear & cutting my own flat stock.( I see that as an advantage in an ironless design)

As for drill wander, it sucks! if anyone ever asks what is the most used tool in my shop I have to say my Drill doctor. I have the cheapest version in the line & the thing just rocks!
http://www.drilldoctor.com/pilot.asp?pg=user-guides
I bought mine at menards on sale for $50 & I use it all the time. it just works & a as a pro woodworker having sharp tools is a matter of pride.

[liveforphysics]

ok brains i got a

Been reading up on the ironless stator as i think im getting close to needing that piece soon . problem is as im getting deeper into it im reading that iron in the core = better efficiency at low rpm . ironless core's seem to make ground as the rpm get high . if so what are the factors that determine the point where its beneficial to be ironless ? rpm alone ? over all design ?

im hoping to be able to get a kv around or under 100 per volt . 48v =4800 rpm . i highly doubt the motor will see continuous WOT so for now ill assume 3k rpm to be an average .

Does 3000 rpm benefit from an ironless stator

At entry level design stages, the motor will be helped by iron at all points. You gotta really have your design tits-on before ironless starts to help at any RPM point.

[AussieJester]

enoob,
But untill I can get my mits on some flat copper in a apropriate size (without breaking my wallet)

Would 3-4ish mm thick copper plate be of use (ill get the exact measurement in the light tomorrow if need be) I have 3-4 sheets of it approx 30x20cm in size If it could be of use to your project Thud or enoob its yours. Let me know and ill get exact size for you. I have no need for it anymore it was what i used when making PC hard drive water blocks.

KiM

[enoob]

enoob,
That whole iron question is the big one in my head also. But untill I can get my mits on some flat copper in a apropriate size (without breaking my wallet) I am just going to play with cores & coil configs. I am anxious to see how a true ironless motor performs in testing though. I may have a go at building a rolling shear & cutting my own flat stock.( I see that as an advantage in an ironless design)

As for drill wander, it sucks! if anyone ever asks what is the most used tool in my shop I have to say my Drill doctor. I have the cheapest version in the line & the thing just rocks!
http://www.drilldoctor.com/pilot.asp?pg=user-guides
I bought mine at menards on sale for $50 & I use it all the time. it just works & a as a pro woodworker having sharp tools is a matter of pride.

love the drill doctor . ive learned that dull tools are a waste of time . and same here , i used up one bit doctor and had to replace it for the worn stone. comes in real handy when you need a short drill bit , just cut to size and resharpen. long long ago i used to able to sharpen one by hand but id bet that skill is buried beneath a few years of beers now.

as for some copper i better get a good idea of what you gents seek there. i got that rotor blank (the nice round one) from my local metal mart for $2.50 . they have bins with all the off cuts and i noticed varying sizes of copper flat bar . IF im right they have a size that would be great for you coils and as ive done some work for the manager of that outlet i can usually get offcuts on the cheap or free.

after sleeping on it and reading the posts you gents put up last night ill start by using rotor #1 with a stock alternator stator , local auto electric shop will do me a custom rewind on it for $50 including the wire. SOLD

im still going to make an ironless version and if i get my way ill have 2 rotors and 2 stators all of differing makup . should be fun to play with.

At entry level design stages, the motor will be helped by iron at all points. You gotta really have your design tits-on before ironless starts to help at any RPM point.

Thanks LFP . kinda where i was heading i think, i was feeling it was a little to early to jump right into ironless cores unless you folks tell me its a hands down winner . seeing i can get that stator rewound for that price (less than i was about to pay for wire to diy) ill give that a go . the fella that runs the auto electric shop is willing to sell me extra wire for my weird science and ill give the ironless a shot this week . But ya im thinkin out of the gate ill use rusty ol iron.


And kim . id love your sheet but no worries bro . something tells me the shipping would be more than we could stomach AND i think i may be on to a good lead locally. stay tuned.

i may even have it spinning this week coming up.

[enoob]

well work and the holiday rush kicked me in the jimmy this week and i did not get as far as i wanted BUT i did move it along

i took these and modified them into a magnet positioning device



like this



then i cleaned up my rotor with this



using a compass i found the north pole on one and lined them up , scoring them lightly with an arrow showing north



ive used this epoxy before on things that got hotter than the rated 100 Celsius with good results so here goes



and heres my magnet holding method. 4 to go after that one sets up and this rotor is ready to go.



and now i wait for this to come by UPS
https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?m ... uct_id=303

after seeing all the trouble with the rc controllers AND the "kelly naked and all washed up thread" kinda figured this would be a good choice . but this does mean ill be fitting hall sensors so i guess thats next.

[Miles]

Nice to see this taking shape, enoob