Adding hall sensors to outrunners

[gwhy!]

some pics of my modified hall sensor block from 60 degree spacing to 17.14 degree spacing, the timming adjustment is achieved by loosening the 2 bolts this allows the hall block to moved. The gap between halls and motor is approx 1mm I didnt want to have to remake the motor faceplate to allow a bigger gap, as Burtie suggested but the set performs very well with this slightly smaller ( 3.25kw ) motor than Burtie is using.

modded hall block.jpg (51.64 KiB) Viewed 1207 times

flea drive _mount.jpg (50.61 KiB) Viewed 1207 times

[gwhy!]

Just found some pics of my original hall mount.

001_hall housing.jpg (36.5 KiB) Viewed 1194 times

002_hall housing.jpg (32.84 KiB) Viewed 1196 times

bigger_motor_with halls.jpg (97.75 KiB) Viewed 1197 times

[dbaker]

Great pictures, Gwhy! I see your curved block with exit wire hole. Do I understand correctly that there are 3 Hall sensors spaced at 17.5 degrees in the curved block sandwiched between the curved aluminum plates? And you simply feed all 3 Halls with + & - from the Keywin controller and then connect the remaining Hall sensors wires to the 3 Hall inputs to the controller?

Thanks for sharing your work!

Dave

[kfong]

Nice job Gwhy! What kind of performance are you getting with that turnigy motor. I have the exact same one SK6374, I was planning to use in on a push scooter since it seemed small.

[gwhy!]

Great pictures, Gwhy! I see your curved block with exit wire hole. Do I understand correctly that there are 3 Hall sensors spaced at 17.5 degrees in the curved block sandwiched between the curved aluminum plates? And you simply feed all 3 Halls with + & - from the Keywin controller and then connect the remaining Hall sensors wires to the 3 Hall inputs to the controller?

Thanks for sharing your work!

Dave

The sensor is set into the slot on the curved surface, the flat side of the sensor is facing towards the motor and the 3 leads from the sensor run up the small hole to the channel between the ali sandwich ( there is only one slot cut in the picture but there are 3 ) the spacing is 17.14~ degrees between the sensors. All the +'s are joined together and all the -'s are joined then the 3 outputs from the sensors along with + and - go to the controller hall plug.

Nice job Gwhy! What kind of performance are you getting with that turnigy motor. I have the exact same one SK6374, I was planning to use in on a push scooter since it seemed small.

the motor runs very well on 48v, no load its drawing 2.5 - 3A. On my bike It have peaked at about 5kw it also runs quite cool, I have put more glue on the magnets and also have replaced the bearings (didnt need doing but done it anyway ) I also have added a additional bearing on the faceplate of the motor to help support the output shaft under load... All good so far ..

[liveforphysics]

I also have added a additional bearing on the faceplate of the motor to help support the output shaft under load... All good so far ..

That is what makes these motors designed to spin a propeller with no side load, work in a heavy side load chaindrive application. The bearing in the mount is critical IMO.

[dbaker]

Luke,

Where did the discussion on the instant start Infineon controllers that was part of the other Hall sensor on RC motors go? I infer from Methods use of Clyte 18 fet boards that the 18 fet instant start issue went that direction but I have not been able to find a discussion of 12 fet controllers.

Your posts are always an inspiration. I loved the cellman battery test stuff!

Dave

[AussieJester]

Luke,
I have not been able to find a discussion of 12 fet controllers.


Dave

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4282

KiM

[dbaker]

Thanks, Kim. I recognize the beginning of that thread and I did check the end. Now to the middle of those 29 pages! I was looking for the conclusion or the next step in the discussion of Luke's 12 fet Infineon's instant start problem that sorta' disappeared in the Hall thread (somewhere around Aug/Sept?). I got wrapped up in it and before I knew it the clock showed 3am so I am trying to find the conclusion to that great story!

I always enjoy your spirited posts and the lines on your current build are great. I am planning an HXT build with an Infineon controller so am interested in ES folks' experiences with that combination.

Envy your summer weather!

Dave

[gwhy!]

Thanks, Kim. I recognize the beginning of that thread and I did check the end. Now to the middle of those 29 pages! I was looking for the conclusion or the next step in the discussion of Luke's 12 fet Infineon's instant start problem that sorta' disappeared in the Hall thread (somewhere around Aug/Sept?). I got wrapped up in it and before I knew it the clock showed 3am so I am trying to find the conclusion to that great story!

I always enjoy your spirited posts and the lines on your current build are great. I am planning an HXT build with an Infineon controller so am interested in ES folks' experiences with that combination.

Envy your summer weather!

Dave

I have a 12fet 116 jobbers that I have been playing with and it works perfectly , I haven't encountered any of the problems that luke was having with any of my controllers. I had a slight issue with my latest 6fet (116) but this was down to the 60degree timing I was using then ( it was very odd ) Since I have changed to 17.14 spacing all 4 of my controllers work so much better.

[AussieJester]

I was looking for the conclusion or the next step in the discussion of Luke's 12 fet Infineon's instant start problem that sorta' disappeared in the Hall thread (somewhere around Aug/Sept?).

Can't help you there matey, i know very little about anything electric, i trust Luke has it sorted though he is 'bomb proofing' my 12fet controller for me ....Only thing im worried about is he will make it so it wont start unless it sees at least 100v of Lipos & have ONLY two speed...stop and flat out hehehe

Envy your summer weather!

our weather gets old fast when its over 30c day after day after day i givez you the tip unlike the fellas in the snow keeping them indoors, here its the heat, getz over 35 and even the beach is a horrible place, you get near 3rd degree burns walking across the sand to the surf LoL...

Best of luck with your build i think you will LOVE the Turnigy very 'torquey' motors sound incredible at full throttle too ...

KiM

[TPA]

& have ONLY two speed...stop and flat out hehehe

Will likely only be one speed....Make sure you are on the bike when you hook up the power leads.

our weather gets old fast when its over 30c day after day after day i givez you the tip unlike the fellas in the snow keeping them indoors, here its the heat, getz over 35 and even the beach is a horrible place, you get near 3rd degree burns walking across the sand to the surf LoL...

I used to feel sorry for you when I used to read that you worked in 30-35C weather....until I did the conversion to F.

From mid June to Sept. I do not see less than 35C almost every day. It is not unusual to see 40C (104F) here.

...and all this talk of frock wearing...

[AussieJester]

...and all this talk of frock wearing...

.....has nothing to do with weather.... although, would be nice in a cool breeze ...maybe these frock motor boyz are onto something Hyenaaaaaa

KiM

[nieles]

hi,

i need some help, i am in the proces of adding hall sensors to my outrunner.
i made a test stand with the sensors at 120 mech. degrees. in my final desing i will use 17.14 degrees.

1. is there a big difference between the ss41 and ss411a? i am using the ss41 right now and works fine, but just wondering

2. does it matter what way the halls are facing, they are all facing in the same direction. if i flip them all, does it still work?

Niels

[gwhy!]

hi,

i need some help, i am in the proces of adding hall sensors to my outrunner.
i made a test stand with the sensors at 120 mech. degrees. in my final desing i will use 17.14 degrees.

1. is there a big difference between the ss41 and ss411a? i am using the ss41 right now and works fine, but just wondering

2. does it matter what way the halls are facing, they are all facing in the same direction. if i flip them all, does it still work?

Niels

the 411 has a faster switch time, and is just generally a higher spec hall sensor than the 41 also the 411 latches, the 41 should be ok. As long as they are all facing the same way it will still work.

[Burtie]

I know that people, myself included, have been having a some problems using external halls lately.

From the Hyperion hall sensor thread:-

fitek wrote:
...the external mounting works. Motor runs fine at low speed. The system does cut out at high throttle. You have to put the throttle back down to zero and then bring it back up..

gwhy! is experiencing similar problems, using 6 FET keywin controllers.

I have seen this problem using a 12 FET keywin controller on my Stinky, but only when drawing battery current greater than 80 amps.
Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.

I am not sure what causes the controller to cut out like this, but I have a hunch it is to do with noise, (or spurious spikes) on the hall sensor inputs to the controller.
Here are a couple of ideas:

1) It may be that noise is being induced in the sensor wires when they run too close to the phase wires or the battery wires.
2) It may be that the hall sensors are being triggered at the wrong time by the magnetic field generated by the stator currents.


1) is easy to fix by re-routing or screening the sensor wires.
2) is perhaps not quite so easy. The sensors would need to be moved to a position that was less affected by the stator field, but still maintain the correct timing.
It may turn out that the 17.14 degree spacing is more susceptable to stator fields, because the sensors are positioned more in line with the poles of the stator.

Any theories or empirical findings gratefuly received.

Burtie

[AussieJester]

Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.

Burtie, when mounting the halls internally is the spacing still 17.4 degrees apart or does it change slightly?
I think this might be what i shall have to do if there is issues with the external mounting?

KiM

[gwhy!]

I tried lots of different combinations ( spacings and positions from 15.5 degrees upto 18.5 degrees) for the external halls over the last couple of days and this made no difference and all the signals/switching was as clean as can be ( all the spacings worked on my old 6fet just the efficiency went out of the window unless you used 17.1'ish degrees ), just to recap on my situation older 6fet works 100%, new 12 fet works 100%, new modded 6fet has problems and a new out the box virgin 6fet also has problems ( these were test on 2 different motors with external halls fitted ). Carried out lots of test ( don't appear to be anything funky going on on the 12v and 5v lines ). its not the lvc cutting in and I also swapped out throttle. Matt from another thread discovered that his controller works with a lower voltage 22.2v 100% so I also tried this and yes the 6fets work ok on 22.2v 100%, So now it looks like if its something to do with the 12/5v lines after all. I also tried adding more caps this also made no difference. You can also get these symptoms if the timing is out ( motor cutting out as you wind on the throt ).

[gwhy!]

Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.

Burtie, when mounting the halls internally is the spacing still 17.4 degrees apart or does it change slightly?
I think this might be what i shall have to do if there is issues with the external mounting?

KiM

Hi KiM,
If you fit the halls inside the motor then the only real option is to go to 120 degree ( inbewteen the stator slots )

Edit: Just found some pictures of when I fitted halls into the big motor that I have, I have since reverted back to external fitting . I think I have posed these somewhere else aswell but this thread is the best one to post in.

hall sensors.jpg (39.34 KiB) Viewed 867 times

hall sensor glued in slot.jpg (87.36 KiB) Viewed 867 times

hall wires brought out.jpg (94.53 KiB) Viewed 867 times

hall wire grouping.jpg (89.17 KiB) Viewed 867 times

hall sensors fitted complete.jpg (95.34 KiB) Viewed 867 times

[liveforphysics]

You did a great job Gwhy


Did you decide to go back to externals because it enabled the timing adjustment?

[gwhy!]

Hi Luke,
Yes timing was one reason for going back to external, But the main reason was it is a lot easier to swap out a external hall setup should there be a problem with any of the hall sensors.

[AussieJester]

Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM

[gwhy!]

Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM

Hi KiM,
This was my motor that I modded , I think Burtie also posted some pics in another thread of his modded motor( I dont know what Burtie used to stick his in Im sure he will chip in and tell you), I used something called chemical metal (plastic padding). silicone may be a bit tricky as it takes quite a while to set and the halls just what to play silly buggers and twist in the slot.

[AussieJester]

This was my motor that I modded ,

Appologies mate i meant to change the name i initially had Burties name in place of all yours in above posted i incorrectly
thought Burtie replied my mistake. I wanted to use something that will allow easy removal of any halls that 'go south'
as you even mention the external halls you do is for both timing and ease of removal purposes. What i will likely
do is try the external mount as Burtie has sent me a hall bracket for the outrunner, if this works (or i can
even get it to work) and it runs fine i will likely stick with this method IF it doesn't however i wanted a
alternative setup, i do actually prefer the internals for its 'stealth' over the more 'messy' external setup.
I think what i will end up doing if the external is successful is making a carbon fiber OR polished aluminium
hall bracket so it 'matches' the rest of the bike, Burties mount will be used initially though and then as a template
if i make another

KiM

[Burtie]

KiM,
I used epoxy to glue in the halls. Hope I never have to remove them!

Burtie