12 kw rc motor

Electric Motors and Controllers
bearing
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 638
Joined: Dec 24, 2008 2:14 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by bearing » Sep 11, 2013 5:56 am

Probably some error, it's been stuck on 98% during lunch.

bearing
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 638
Joined: Dec 24, 2008 2:14 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by bearing » Sep 11, 2013 8:38 am

bearing wrote:We are going to overload his machine :( :D
Looks like we/I actually did that! Because the simulations haven't run to 100% for me since lunch. And the site stopped responding an hour ago or so. Maybe he blocked my IP (lol).

EDIT: It was probably only a temporary DNS problem.

User avatar
Miles
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 11436
Joined: Mar 16, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: London UK

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Miles » Sep 22, 2013 1:22 am

This looks like a clue (page 72 (87).

The equation is from Hanselman.
Attachments
Torque-eq..png
Torque-eq..png (14.28 KiB) Viewed 2437 times
COGGING TORQUE, TORQUE RIPPLE AND RADIAL FORCE ANALYSIS OF.pdf
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 76 times

User avatar
Miles
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 11436
Joined: Mar 16, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: London UK

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Miles » Oct 20, 2013 6:11 pm

Biff wrote:
Miles wrote:
Biff wrote:Arlo asked why not have a 24tooth 22pole tooth design. That is a good magnetic design, I don't know why they wouldn't pick that combination.
Because there is only one winding symmetry?
possibly
It seems to be the only thing not in its favour.

I've just noticed that the smaller Joby motors used this configuration :)

bearing
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 638
Joined: Dec 24, 2008 2:14 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by bearing » Oct 20, 2013 7:00 pm

I have actually played with that configuration the last days as well!
It's a nice config.

Maybe it's not used so often because it has more poles than 24t20p, yet a (slightly) lower winding factor (from memory).

User avatar
Miles
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 11436
Joined: Mar 16, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: London UK

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Miles » Oct 21, 2013 2:28 am

bearing wrote:I have actually played with that configuration the last days as well!
It's a nice config.

Maybe it's not used so often because it has more poles than 24t20p, yet a (slightly) lower winding factor (from memory).
The winding factor is slightly higher, for 2 layers. No prominent sub-harmonics, either. It's just the single symmetry that isn't good.

User avatar
sigimem
100 W
100 W
Posts: 189
Joined: Feb 22, 2012 4:07 pm
Location: RLP, Germany

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by sigimem » Jan 28, 2014 7:42 am

What inductance has the new 28 magnet motor from phase to phase?

Is it still 8µH ? Was that measured Phase to Phase?

User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8538
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Arlo1 » Jan 28, 2014 10:07 am

sigimem wrote:What inductance has the new 28 magnet motor from phase to phase?

Is it still 8µH ? Was that measured Phase to Phase?
I don't know the new motor but it will not be to far off from that.
As for the first prototype Its 8uH phase to phase.
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
SplinterOz
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 532
Joined: Apr 21, 2010 4:29 am
Location: Canberra
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by SplinterOz » Jan 29, 2014 3:29 am

I will have a look at the measurements I took before fitting the motor to my motorbike and post them up tomorrow.

Currently I am adjusting the timing (static advance/retard) on the motor so I can do full testing. Note however the new motor is on the bike with the same controller and driving the bike and myself up to 60 km/h.

Once the timing is spot on higher speed and more current will be tested.
SplinterOz
In the Capital of Australia
http://rgelectric.wordpress.com

Jan Christian
100 W
100 W
Posts: 165
Joined: Oct 26, 2013 4:36 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Jan Christian » Sep 20, 2014 10:22 am

Is it possible to get the watercooled collossus these days?

User avatar
marcexec
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 412
Joined: Mar 10, 2009 8:20 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by marcexec » Sep 20, 2014 1:56 pm

Jan Christian wrote:Is it possible to get the watercooled collossus these days?
Jan, there is some more info on the "sale" thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=125 - this is more the "development" type :)
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

User avatar
sigimem
100 W
100 W
Posts: 189
Joined: Feb 22, 2012 4:07 pm
Location: RLP, Germany

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by sigimem » Oct 30, 2014 3:25 am

On the for sale thread Acountant stated:

5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.

Main problem was how to put the HAL sensors inside motor, on the right spot, where signal is strong and clear.

Problem solved !!!

What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.
Is the Hal Signal so important for the power satge? I thought the low inductance would be more of a problem. :?

Arlo are you running lebowskis chip with hal sensors or the version without them (after picking up rpm)?

User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8538
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 30, 2014 8:58 am

sigimem wrote:On the for sale thread Acountant stated:

5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.

Main problem was how to put the HAL sensors inside motor, on the right spot, where signal is strong and clear.

Problem solved !!!

What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.
Is the Hal Signal so important for the power satge? I thought the low inductance would be more of a problem. :?

Arlo are you running lebowskis chip with hal sensors or the version without them (after picking up rpm)?
Plan is to have the hall option with v2.3 from lebowski but I do not plan to use it unless I find I need it. Inductance does mater and my hall sensors were lined up properly with my colossus and it would run on a 24 fet Chinese controller at very VERY low settings but still blow up randomly because they do not measure phase current and the pwm frequency is to low for the low inductance of colossus. I was going to stay out of this thread but you asked. So I can tell you the only success I had was with a more advanced controller like lebowski's or with external inductors. Remember I spent my own hard earned money to buy colossus and to buy all my controllers and mosfets and test equipment I have spent over 10,000 since getting the challenge of colossus. I'm broke because of it. But I call that the cost of my education. I just don't want to see others go down that road.
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
riba2233
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1869
Joined: Jun 30, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Croatia

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by riba2233 » Oct 30, 2014 9:11 am

Have you tried kelly? Or maybe spliting it into 6 phase?

User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8538
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 30, 2014 9:19 am

riba2233 wrote:Have you tried kelly? Or maybe spliting it into 6 phase?
Yes I got a Kelly given to me and it lasted 5min with the wheel in the air. It was the biggest explosion I have had in my shop.
New kellys seem to run it with the high frequency firmware but they are not a great controller.
As for the 6 phase thing. I have done a lot of experiments and that was one of them but where do you buy a 6 phase controller? Or Do you want 2 controllers just to run a motor??? There is no real advantage to using it as a 6 phase or 2 separate 3 phase motors. Zero has winding split so you can do this but I think its more because they can't find controllers to feed enough power to their motor to push it. If this motor had enough inductance I could most likely melt it with a size 6 sevcon.
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8538
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 30, 2014 9:25 am

About the Kelly thing.

This is a couple of lukes posts.
They were thinking that they could call it a 400phase amp controller if they stuck 7 fets in parallel... Wrong! Lol
Kelly isn't well funded bro, I don't think they even have their own engineers. It's a little shack in China assembling the through-hole parts by hand on boards that come in from a pick-n-place yard that handled the SMT assembly, then brushing over conformal coating and screwing them together in the extrusion. And a satellite office that answers phone calls from angry people who don't know how to get a working hall-combo, or want an RMA number to mail the controllers back that released the magic smoke. That is the whole company.
On this thread discussing them taken apart. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 02#p429502
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
MitchJi
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3195
Joined: Jun 02, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by MitchJi » Oct 31, 2014 8:01 am

Hi,
5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.
What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.

You completely missed his point. The original version of this motor only worked with only worked with some Kelly controllers and DIY power stages, with the Lebowski brain. Now it will work with most controllers.

So now instead of being limited to the mediocre Kelly controller you are free to choose an even more lame infinion controller if you want, but why would you want to do that? Now for example you can run it with a Sevcon, if you can afford to hire Arlo to program it for you.
Last edited by MitchJi on Nov 01, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Two examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here
The cells are rated conservatively by GM at 7.8C, Yabert's tests of Volt packs on the DiyEv car forum suggest a higher C rate, 15+ C!.

$1,400 plus $360 freight. Still over $1k less than new lead!

User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8538
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 31, 2014 9:47 am

MitchJi wrote::idea: Hi,
5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.
What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.

You completely missed his point. The original version of this motor only worked with only worked with some Kelly controllers and DIY power stages, with the Lebowski brain. Now it will work with most controllers.

So now instead of being limited to the mediocre Kelly controller you are free to choose an even more lame infinion controller if you want, but why would you want to do that? Now for example you can run it with a Sevcon, if you can afford to hire Arlo to program it for you.
I will belive it when I see it. They are blaming it on a hall miss alignment. Mine never had a hall misalignment and still blew up controllers if they changed the KV then maybe But still it would need to be about 50uH to allow most controllers to run it without problem so that would mean a lot less rpm per volt about 2.5-3x less...
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by gwhy! » Oct 31, 2014 10:55 am

Arlo1 wrote:
MitchJi wrote::idea: Hi,
5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.
What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.

You completely missed his point. The original version of this motor only worked with only worked with some Kelly controllers and DIY power stages, with the Lebowski brain. Now it will work with most controllers.

So now instead of being limited to the mediocre Kelly controller you are free to choose an even more lame infinion controller if you want, but why would you want to do that? Now for example you can run it with a Sevcon, if you can afford to hire Arlo to program it for you.
I will belive it when I see it. They are blaming it on a hall miss alignment. Mine never had a hall misalignment and still blew up controllers if they changed the KV then maybe But still it would need to be about 50uH to allow most controllers to run it without problem so that would mean a lot less rpm per volt about 2.5-3x less...
Hall placement is very important , and even though the signals from the halls may look spot on strange things can happen when motors are spun up under heavy loads.. Im not saying that the motor may have had other issues but don't blow away the fact that even if sensor signals look good don't mean that they will always be good at varying loads.

infinion more lame than a kelly :D the only good thing about kellys is the current control throttle but there are plenty of bad points.. There is nothing wrong with infinions is just some people don't know how to use/program them.

User avatar
sigimem
100 W
100 W
Posts: 189
Joined: Feb 22, 2012 4:07 pm
Location: RLP, Germany

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by sigimem » Nov 02, 2014 5:40 am

5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.
What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.
You completely missed his point. The original version of this motor only worked with only worked with some Kelly controllers and DIY power stages, with the Lebowski brain. Now it will work with most controllers.

So now instead of being limited to the mediocre Kelly controller you are free to choose an even more lame infinion controller if you want, but why would you want to do that? Now for example you can run it with a Sevcon, if you can afford to hire Arlo to program it for you.
I think I got his point but I can´t imagine running a infinion controller on the same power levels as on a hub motor is a clever idea. After all the main change to the motor was the position of the hall sensors and since I am trying to learn I wanted to know how that makes such a big difference to the power stage of a controller?
And you can´t use a sevcon because the max rpm would be much to low.

User avatar
circuit
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mar 19, 2009 11:43 am
Location: EU
Contact:

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by circuit » Nov 03, 2014 2:05 am

Arlo1 wrote:
MitchJi wrote::idea: Hi,
5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with the most of other controllers.
What does that mean for the potential buyer? I am not keen to put my 18Fet infinion on this motor since Arlo blew up so many FETs.

You completely missed his point. The original version of this motor only worked with only worked with some Kelly controllers and DIY power stages, with the Lebowski brain. Now it will work with most controllers.

So now instead of being limited to the mediocre Kelly controller you are free to choose an even more lame infinion controller if you want, but why would you want to do that? Now for example you can run it with a Sevcon, if you can afford to hire Arlo to program it for you.
I will belive it when I see it. They are blaming it on a hall miss alignment. Mine never had a hall misalignment and still blew up controllers if they changed the KV then maybe But still it would need to be about 50uH to allow most controllers to run it without problem so that would mean a lot less rpm per volt about 2.5-3x less...
I second that.
Answer is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 85#p966685

To developers of this motor: I totally admire your effort, but to me it looks like you have no idea what you are doing, apart from mechanical stuff. During those 5 long years you should have solved this long ago, and I am pretty sure it is NOT hall issue. From what I can see, issue is still there. *cough* inductance *cough*

gwhy! wrote:infinion more lame than a kelly :D the only good thing about kellys is the current control throttle but there are plenty of bad points.. There is nothing wrong with infinions is just some people don't know how to use/program them.
Kelly does phase-current limiting. Infineon doesn't and blows up occasionally. Few 18fets died on my arms while trying to start, while moments before they were running fine.
Kelly has current/torque mode. Infineon doesn't and this leads to jerky commuting. I absolutely hate that.
Kelly has synchronous output stage. Infineon doesn't and this leads to more heat and more prone to blowups.
Kelly has potted PCB. Infineon doesn't ans is prone to vibration. Seen many with bloken-off CAPs.
And list goes on.

Kelly is not the best product out there. Probably not even mediocre. But infineon is just silly, even compared to Kelly. Just an amateurish DIY toy, like those designed for RC toys - you buy it, have a few flights, it puffs/blows up/etc. and you just buy a new one.
smart and Tiny BMS solution
Visit my blog. Personal projects: Clean Peugeot conversion | Ultralight enduro
Any and all information, such as texts, specifications, drawings or other material that I post are to be used only as a reference for personal, non-commercial projects ONLY. Any republication for personal or commercial needs must be agreed on individually. Use of any information, that I post, for commercial purposes is strictly prohibited.

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by gwhy! » Nov 03, 2014 4:11 am

circuit wrote:
gwhy! wrote:infinion more lame than a kelly :D the only good thing about kellys is the current control throttle but there are plenty of bad points.. There is nothing wrong with infinions is just some people don't know how to use/program them.
circuit wrote: Kelly does phase-current limiting. Infineon doesn't and blows up occasionally. Few 18fets died on my arms while trying to start, while moments before they were running fine.
Kelly has current/torque mode. Infineon doesn't and this leads to jerky commuting. I absolutely hate that.
Kelly has synchronous output stage. Infineon doesn't and this leads to more heat and more prone to blowups.
Kelly has potted PCB. Infineon doesn't ans is prone to vibration. Seen many with bloken-off CAPs.
And list goes on.

Kelly is not the best product out there. Probably not even mediocre. But infineon is just silly, even compared to Kelly. Just an amateurish DIY toy, like those designed for RC toys - you buy it, have a few flights, it puffs/blows up/etc. and you just buy a new one.

I use infineon's and have used them ever since i have been in this game , I currently have 4 that are setup on my own bikes that are set up for 7kw each also have 3 that I have setup for others running at 5-7kw and in the past I have used 6fet controller setup for 4kw I have never had one blow and it dont take to much effort to work out how to get the throttle smooth .. never had a infineon get to hot or blow out of the 10's of infineon's that I have used. They are halve the price of the kelly's but do the job just as well as the kelly, I would say they do the job better just because of the fact they are cheaper. Yes kelly has a few more things that makes it "safe" but that don't make it better in my book when all i want is something that can do the job reliably and as cheap as possible and infineon's fall into this bracket I have never owned a kelly but spoke to people that have and seems kellys have there own sets of problems.

mjar99
10 µW
10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Oct 22, 2014 9:33 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by mjar99 » Nov 21, 2014 4:06 am

Hi to all!
Great thread! Great forum!
A month ago I didn't even know that Endless Sphere existed.
I knew nothing about rc motors. I even had to google the word "outrunner" the first time I saw it here.
No, a month later, over 100 hours of reading this thread + links to other threads/videos + a lot of googling.
It was like reading a good novel, you want to read the next chapter to see what will happen next.
It is amazing how many things you can learn from this forum.
I would like to thank everyone here: John in CR, liveforphysics, Arlo1, Jeremy Harris, olaf-lampe, SplinterOz, AussieJester, markobetti, HAL9000v2.0, toolman2, Biff, circuit and everyone else who shared their knowledge with us.
I'm new in EV community, though I tried to make a conversion back in 2011 but gave up. Now I have more confidence.
Hope one day become part of the community and share my knowledge and experiences with you.
Thanks again and keep the good work!

Jan Christian
100 W
100 W
Posts: 165
Joined: Oct 26, 2013 4:36 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Jan Christian » Nov 21, 2014 12:32 pm

I need some light weight power for my wakeboard. What about winding the collossus with 2 separate 3 phase and stick two of these on it: http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/boat-e ... et-esc-hv/
would it work?

Jan Christian
100 W
100 W
Posts: 165
Joined: Oct 26, 2013 4:36 am

Re: 12 kw rc motor

Post by Jan Christian » Nov 21, 2014 12:34 pm


Post Reply