Re: 5KW 72V Controller 36 #4410 FET's, $108 #4110's $154

[parabellum]

Little note: He might be in partnership with the actual person who does programming, who would not budge because then Leo could skip him. I don't know. He's knowledgeable about what he sells, which is exciting, but I'm just suggesting there may be more than 1 reason why he withholds programming.

Thats true also. Who knows. I certainly am not trying to deprive anyone of an income or a living, but there must be a happy medium.

In the meantime.......



That's the best shot I could get of the chip in the Leo controller, I didn't get the schmutz on it, that was already there. Looks like a bit of heatsink compound. As we can see, there is a row of vacant pads immediately in front of it.

Flicking the board over reveals that vacant strip of pads to be all labeled "+5v"

Those are not same pinholes pictured from opposite sides of the controller right?

Do you have picture of opposite board side from first picture?

[The Mighty Volt]

Yeah you are correct, I made a mistake, I will dig the other photo out presently. Thanks.

[boostjuice]

I couldnt find a datasheet, but i did find this reverse engineered schematic for a 250W controller that also uses the X8M06-C microcontroller.
Some of the MCU pins regarding the TTL-RS232 programming are labelled. Whether or not this chip uses ROM (single write) or EEPROM (rewritable) programability is still unknown i guess, as is its compatibility with obtainable programming software.

http://www.avdweb.nl/Article_files/Solarbike/Motor-controller/China-BLDC-motor-controller-36V-250W.pdf

[pelle242]

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl ... 38&act=url

says its a UPD79F9211 .

Can be used for ebikes: http://cn.renesas.com/media/support/demo_cn/E_bike.pdf

[zombiess]

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourdev.cn%2Fforum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D5327338&act=url

says its a UPD79F9211 .

Can be used for ebikes: http://cn.renesas.com/media/support/demo_cn/E_bike.pdf

That software is available, it's for and older Xie-Chang controller. They only made the EB706 EB709 and EB712 as far as I can tell from the programming software I've seen.

[bearing]

Can be used for ebikes: http://cn.renesas.com/media/support/demo_cn/E_bike.pdf

Interesting. From the google translation:

Feature A: 180 Degree sine wave control
Feature 2: Current and speed closed-loop
Feature 3: Two current over-current protection
Feature 4 The effect of: ultra-quiet
Feature 5: Brake energy regeneration

It would be awesome(!) if the controller this thread is about have these features implemented. I mean, sine wave and closed loop current control!

I found a related document:
Motor Control by μPD78F0714
Hall IC 180° Excitation Method
http://documentation.renesas.com/doc/Do ... V0AN00.pdf

And also another "ebike schematic"
http://documentation.renesas.com/doc/pr ... ard_sc.pdf

[silverrich1]

should I say Traolach Kaye?

Yeah you are correct, I made a mistake, I will dig the other photo out presently. Thanks.

[The Mighty Volt]

should I say Traolach Kaye?

Yeah you are correct, I made a mistake, I will dig the other photo out presently. Thanks.

Thats up to you Nader. Or should I say......"NovemberSierra" lol

How is that goot working out?

Don't get me wrong, you are a talented guy, but you need to loosen up. Stop trying to shake people down. I can spot you a mile off. Maybe I will contact the Home Office.

Peace bro!

[silverrich1]

nah.. traolach kaye's novembersierra

should I say Traolach Kaye?

Yeah you are correct, I made a mistake, I will dig the other photo out presently. Thanks.

Thats up to you Nader. Or should I say......"NovemberSierra" lol

Peace bro!

[The Mighty Volt]

I feel a ban coming on.

How do you know Sangesf?

[silverrich1]

This guy is sangesf, a ripoff scammer, sellers watch out you have been warned, he's coming into the europe buy trying to ruin the cell's reputation. stay away from him and his controllers / ebikes aka 'The Mighty Volt'.

and you're trying to sell people these dead controllers at a markup, I know your tactics, right back at you, how do you know sangesf 'The Mighty Volt' ??
Exactly.

How do you know Sangesf?

[zombiess]

I just wanted to add something to this about Lyen and his controllers. His controllers may be a bit more expensive than these but he does also support them, provide programming software and USB cable for them and also builds them with good quality components. I own many controllers that Lyen has built, some that were most likely built by Xie Chang themselves and now some I've built myself. There can be a huge difference in quality, especially in the capacitors which are critical to a controllers survival at the limits. You certainly are getting what you are paying for when you deal with Lyen whose prices I personally think are quite reasonable especially after building and modding some controllers. If you haven't actually built a controller yourself you should try it. It can be quite tedious and time consuming and gives you a lot of insight as to what it takes. High quality components such as capacitors aren't exactly cheap either, even in decent quantity.

This isn't meant to put down this controller, everyone has a personal price point vs what they get. I know with all the effort I've put into my own builds I wouldn't even think of selling them for as cheap as Lyen does his unless I was really in need of money and my 18 FET is just one of his that I modified.

[The Mighty Volt]

I just wanted to add something to this about Lyen and his controllers. His controllers may be a bit more expensive than these but he does also support them, provide programming software and USB cable for them and also builds them with good quality components. I own many controllers that Lyen has built, some that were most likely built by Xie Chang themselves and now some I've built myself. There can be a huge difference in quality, especially in the capacitors which are critical to a controllers survival at the limits. You certainly are getting what you are paying for when you deal with Lyen whose prices I personally think are quite reasonable especially after building and modding some controllers. If you haven't actually built a controller yourself you should try it. It can be quite tedious and time consuming and gives you a lot of insight as to what it takes. High quality components such as capacitors aren't exactly cheap either, even in decent quantity.

This isn't meant to put down this controller, everyone has a personal price point vs what they get. I know with all the effort I've put into my own builds I wouldn't even think of selling them for as cheap as Lyen does his unless I was really in need of money and my 18 FET is just one of his that I modified.

I knew you were a big Ed Lyen fan. He does build good controllers. I have used his 18 Fet 4110 Overclocker. Brilliant. His prices are quite reasonable. I am trying to build my own controllers but I need proper working environments. I wouldn't dream of underestimating the guys talents, but lets face it, its human nature to look for more, for less, right? Who here wouldn't dream of being able to source cheap, programmable boards which we can mod and alter at our own convenience??? Its not even a question of money, its a question of speed and efficiency and flexibility. Maybe I will keep my Lyen as my main controller and my Leo as a back up. No harm there, surely?

[SkyCaptain]

Hey I have this contoller 24fet 100v and just powered it up today.

It seems really slow, and low power compared to my other controller I was using.

It did not come with a 3 speed switch.
But I asked leo to set it to maximum high power.

It just seems strange. It powers/revs up the motor really slowly, and has no torque. As if it is set to low power or something.

I am using the same battery and motor, I just swapped controllers.
My other controller which is only a 15fet 40amp, pulls much harder, so something must be wrong.

Does anyone know what colour the wires are for the 3 speed switch plug?
Do I just short all 3 of them to put it to maximum power?

[NeilP]

I answered that in your new thread about this, but sorry, I was getting confused as to which controller you had, I was thinking another controller

If unsure I think the best bet is to slide the board out the case and check/ follow the wires back to the board
One will be ground and the other two alternately connect to it for either high or low speed

[methods]

ok... here we go again

So I just read this entire thread twice.
I found it via this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38225

Now before I go too crazy... does anyone have any other threads to cross link so I can be fully informed?

some thoughts:

1) Those 4110's dont look genuine to me. I have handled thousands of them and although I can not point to anything specific - when I first saw a picture the print seems off - or crooked. Has anyone confirmed that these are actually genuine IRFB4110 fets manufactured in Mexico? As in confirmed by testing? Makes a difference... I would love it if this guy has genuine 4110's so we dont have to screw around. I can believe that he might actually have his grubbies on the real deal since you can now grab them in quantity 1 at Arrow for only $1.53

http://www.arrownac.com/parts/detail/42590206S7624301N3340
(I was having to purchase 12,000pcs at a time to get similar pricing just a year or two ago... so... that is CHEAP!)

2) Programming is not a non-starter. Reality is that most guys want programmability but most guys dont really even use it. Most of the time I just end up cranking everything to the limit and then adding more solder to the shunt. I would be more than willing to explore these controllers. We now have a 3spd switch that can go inline with any controller and can be adjusted for anything from 0% - 100%. The CA can handle most other basic stuff... For me - I will just set it as high as it will go and tune my throttle resolution to keep control of it.

3) What is up with the regulator - anybody sort that yet?

So I posted in that other thread..... then went back and deleted it.
The gist of my post is that I am gong to sample 10 of these. Depending on how easy the supplier is to communicate with I will get them as pimped as possible. Here are the things I would ask for.

*) Genuine IRFB4110 fets from Mexico
*) Heavy 10awg (or better) wires on the PCB traces
*) Try to fit larger 1000uF caps in as many places as possible
*) Add CA-DP connector. Ensure it hooks to the throttle via a diode and not ebrake.
*) Set the current limit to 100A (or as high as he is willing to set) and populate all of the shunt slots available (for increased shunt power handling)
*) Run the absolute largest Power and Phase wires that he is willing to fit in there. 10AWG at a minimum.
*) Extend the Phase and Hall leads to 1.5 meters
*) Request JST-SM (black, same style as CA and Crystalyte use) 3 pin connectors for throttle
*) Set the 3spd switch to 25%, 50%, 100%
*) Power switch? (that also switches the CA)

Ok - that will be a good start.
Please add to my list if you have suggestions

If he is even remotely respondent to that I will start trying for a real set of requirements including call outs for all the connectors and lengths, gasket material, power switches, etc. For starters I would be happy if he would do 10% of that shit and we can finish them off here.

Realistically this will probably just scare him off but I just as soon find out now then have to wait.
If he is willing to play ball I will bring in 50 of these and have my guys here finish them off to be plug and play compatible with Ebikes.ca and Crystalyte gear.

If anyone wants to get in on this action let me know. I will front the dough and shield you from any shit that hits the fan. Not sure how it will turn out - but it is not like this will be the first time I shot a wad of money into the dark vagina called China.

-methods

[NeilP]

Just to be clear, are you saying that since you feel most people ask for programming, but do not actually use it in practice, that you will or will not be putting pressure on him to allow us to do programming

If you are buying quantities of them, then maybe he would be more inclined to give you programming info, you could then spread the info to us. your bigger buying clout may help to persuade him if you lean on him a bit

[neptronix]

Methods, i look forward to seeing what will come of what you do.. i am in the market for a 36FET 4110 as of now, to drive the motenergy 4201 and MAC 2kW motors to their limits.

I don't see anyone making the 36FET controllers available these days and if we could get our hands on these and mod them to be programmable, and all the other things you mentioned.

I want to be able to set the phase to battery ratio and regen HVC appropriately for the job, so lack of programming is a deal breaker to me.

[methods]

I have been having so much trouble finding a source in China who will produce controllers (at least somewhat close) to my requirements that at this point I would be willing to forgo having the ability to program.

Here is the deal: They are either programmable or they are not.
If they are programmable then it is only a matter of time before we gain access.
If they are not programmable then they are what they are. A lot of the chips these days are programmed at the factory. These guys are not necessarily flashing these boards... they might just have a few options when they order blanks.

I have been TOTALLY out of the loop with this stuff for over a year but the little I have seen is showing that things are moving away from flashable chips and toward chips that have a subset of real-time programmability. I have not looked - but I am sure someone has dug into the details of how Kenny's CA-Ripoff communicates with the chips.

So... I hear you guys about the programming. If I was just buying a controller for myself I would accept no substitute for exactly what I wanted... but it is totally different when you are trying to bring something in on a larger scale to try and make it available. If I can push him into populating with a different chip that is field programmable I will - but the reality is that I will be lucky if he even puts them in a box and kicks them out onto the porch for me.

Communicating with sketchy Chinese dudes is more art than science... I still have NFC how to do it.

-methods

[NeilP]

Regarding the APM CA .. Hardly call it a rip off, a totally different and inferior product

I do have one and a compatible controller, and am more than happy to try and intercept the data streams to/from the APM and controller chip. I have posted that I am willing to do this before, but I have no idea where to start in capturing the data
Ok I suppose some sort of RS232 adapter to USB..., T- off both the Tx and Rx lines?would that work? But how to wireit up, what to wire it to? Pair of cheap EBay RS232 to USB ADAPTERS I suppose but I need details on how to do it. Wire it etc

Then what software to log the data as it passes from APM to MCU and the other way around
I imagine two adapters, and two instances of the software running, one logging the data from APM, the other logging data from the MCU

If any one can tell me how to do this, what to buy to try,I'll happily give it a shot
Was thinking two of these eBay items

Item #: 251075129117
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewit ... 6988015040

[amberwolf]

I have been TOTALLY out of the loop with this stuff for over a year but the little I have seen is showing that things are moving away from flashable chips and toward chips that have a subset of real-time programmability. I have not looked - but I am sure someone has dug into the details of how Kenny's CA-Ripoff communicates with the chips.

Even Fusin's latest controller does something like this, using serial I/O with it's "analyst" display. Three buttons control stuff on the display as well as which of 10 power levels (off to max) it uses for PAS. There isn't the same kind of functionality that the "APM" or whatever it's called can do, with the Crystalyte controllers, but it's a start, and I bet someone with the ability to sniff the serial data stream could decode what's being sent and received, and test out alternate sequences taht might change other parameters in the controller (I'm sure that just like other companies, Fusin would never tell us if it is even possible to do it, much less help ).



@NeilP:
Capturing the data on a PC is easy--just open any terminal program and set it to the right com port. Then set it to save teh file. Same way you can do it on a PC capturing from the CA's data stream to log it.

Tapping off the serial data lines should be as straightforward as just hooking up the TX and RX and ground lines.

I've considered doing it with the Fusin version here, but I dont' really have enough time to do anything with it.

[neptronix]

Communicating with sketchy Chinese dudes is more art than science... I still have NFC how to do it.

Oh my god, tell me about it.

I hope some of the EE dudes who hack everything they can possibly get their hands on come out of the woodworks for this. They seem to be rarer birds every passing year here on this forum.

I think there will be a higher demand for 36FETs soon, given that the 54xx and Cromotor have came out.

These probably have crap components and we'll find out what's really going on with them later but they are worth a shot..

[methods]

Yea - I could reverse engineer the comms in a weekend but I dont even want to go down that path. The trouble is that there are 32 variants of that chip floating around with 64 versions of firmware. So lets say I get it all dialed in... problem is that 2 months later when I order my next batch of controllers they are running either different firmware or they are totally different chips. Chinese dudes just swap that shit out like they think it is funny Anyone who has been watching these "infineon" type controllers since they hit the ebike scene knows just how many variants there are out there and how randomly they change.

No way someone has not already reversed that data stream between the Kenny box and controller.... It has been out a long time.

-methods

[NeilP]

No way someone has not already reversed that data stream between the Kenny box and controller.... It has been out a long time.

-methods

but not on here, that i have seen that anyone has posted about and helped out in being able to program them

Capturing the data on a PC is easy--just open any terminal program and set it to the right com port. Then set it to save teh file. Same way you can do it on a PC capturing from the CA's data stream to log it.

Terminal yes that is it, just have to look up the commands again to point it to the com ports and log the data...been years since my amateur radio days and doing this sort of stuff

Tapping off the serial data lines should be as straightforward as just hooking up the TX and RX and ground lines.

Just to confirm.
As I see it you have two data streams...
From APM (XLYTE CA) to the MCU.......... I'll call that Stream A = APM Tx port to MCU Rx port
To APM (XLYTE CA) From the MCU..........I'll call that Stream B = APM Rx port to MCU Tx port

So I would get two of these, to enable simultaneous logging of both streams, and just use the ground and Rx lines on each one. Rx line tapping in to a tap between Rx and Tx lines of both Stream A and Stream B..

[Arlo1]

I wonder if this is still going becase gordo started this thread last year lol.

NeilP do you have a link to that usb-serial adapter?